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Feeling like a failure of a horse owner...

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  • Spud&Saf
    Re: PSSM - you may want to just try on her a diet that is intended for horses that have it. You can get biopsies, etc. but if she has it and you try the diet, you will see results in a couple of weeks. Essentially, the premise of the diet is ultra low starch/NSC and high fat. At this point, it wouldn't cost you anything just to try the diet and see if you get any improvement on it.

    You could also try her on 10000 IU of Vitamin E per day. It can improve neuro issues. Again, cheap enough to try and see if there is any improvement.

    I would get your horse tested for EPM, as well - the test is not that expensive in the grand scheme of things and is a good one to rule out. I had a horse who ended up with EPM. I live in an area where it is rather uncommon, so it wasn't really an area of focus in things we looked at for him for over the years. If I could go back now, I would definitely have insisted on the test much earlier on, and if I ever have another horse with odd, shifting lameness and/or abnormal anxiety levels, it is certainly a test I'm going to do right away. I saw marginal improvement with the Vitamin E at 10000 IU per day, but he was already considered chronic EPM at the time I tried it. As he was considered chronic, and had developed relatively substantial neuro deficits, he was not a good candidate for treatment. I ended up euthanizing him. It was a very difficult decision, but ultimately he was lame and in pain and worried all the time due to sensory deficits and had no quality of life. He was only 16, so I felt he was robbed of a long life but when there is no quality of life, a long life is really only prolonging their misery.

    If she is in pain the majority of the time, there is no shame in saying you have reached your financial limit in terms of diagnostics and treatment, and letting her go. You have done so much to try and help her. It is okay if you have to say enough is enough - financial limitations are reality for a lot of us and supporting the retirement of a young, but lame horse is a major commitment. - especially if you board. Sometimes, the kindest thing you can do is take their pain away, even if it is the most painful choice for you.

    I wish you and your mare all the best and that you get the answers you are looking for.

    Leave a comment:

  • ASpoonfullaSplash
    Update! Lilo had her feet done on Saturday (shoes on fronts, barefoot hinds) on schedule for every 6 weeks. Barn owner said she has been looking better on her fronts. I hopped on bareback just to walk her around and behavior-wise, you'd think I've been riding her every day for the last few months! I was very pleased about that. She still felt off in her hind end, which at first I could feel her front end compensating for it. BO rec'd (and has in the past) getting her tested for navicular. My farrier did heel pain tests on Saturday and Lilo did not react, but she said there was a third kind of navicular that heel pain tests cannot account for. So I think the time is now to have a round of x-rays done on feet, hocks and stifles while the farm vet is out for spring vax's to be able to compare and have a baseline moving forward!

    abrant and cruisecontrol - Thank you for sharing your experiences. My mind and heart fall on the side of wanting to keep trying to diagnose. Something in me tells me to keep going - she's young, so willing and loved. Not sure if that's me refusing to accept that she may be an outlier or I'm just in denial.

    Xanthoria and Wyndolfe- Thank you for your extensive knowledge! That article was very interesting and I'm adding it to my vault. I'm hoping to have more diagnostics done soon, so I will keep you posted on what we find! I'm also dabbling into pasture turnout in my area, but the places I've found are either not well taken care of or the barn owners seem shady. I do like where she's at for now because I have an extra set of eyes on her that I can trust. Lilo's safety is my main concern!

    merrygoround - Thank you for the advice! I will definitely remember this!

    BruBoy - Thank you for the support!

    Fharoah - I will have to mention these options to my farrier next time she's out! Not sure I've ever heard of IRAP, so I'm excited to research it; thanks for the advice!

    WishesRHorses - Very, very interesting! When Lilo did her 6 month stay at a friend's "rehab," the barn owner was the one really convinced she had Lyme based on her experiences and the swelling in random legs she said she saw (I was 2 hours away and have yet to see any swelling since she came home a year ago). What were your horse's symptoms? Thank you for the kind words!

    Leave a comment:

  • WishesRHorses
    It took several years to diagnose and 3 months of of daily doxycyclene via neck catheter to get my horse over Lyme Disease. Fortunately she was such a sweetie that you could just walk up to her in the field and give her the stuff in her catheter. She still had to be retired because of secondary ring bone. I think the tests are better now, but it can still be tricky to diagnose.

    This is sooo hard--when something is wrong and we can't fix it and we know they trust us and are depending on us. You are a great horse mom, she is lucky to have you.

    Leave a comment:

  • Fharoah
    I would try IRAP and time. My horse responded to steroid injections for about a month then was NQR again IRAP made him sound and stay sound. It took a month to see results. The combination of IRAP, time and previcox might make him comfortable for light ridding also make sure you have an amazing farrier. My arthritis horse likes duplo shoes (polyethylene with steel inserts).

    Leave a comment:

  • BruBoy
    There has been a ton of great advice given. You did not fail your far as owners go, you are one of the good one! Hugs!

    Leave a comment:

  • Feliz
    Originally posted by merrygoround View Post

    However if you do elect to US do not do nerve blocks immediately beforehand. The perfusion of the blocking material will mask an accurate US. A friend wasted 2 years, and a lot of money with multiple visits to a veterinary school that way. When one look and an US from a well know lameness clinic found a suspensory problem.
    Wow that is so frustrating for your friend! My horse was nerve blocked one day to locate the problem area, then ultra-sounded the next day

    Leave a comment:

  • merrygoround
    OP so sorry you are going through this. I gather not only did no one do an ultrasound on this horse. No one did nerve blocks.

    However if you do elect to US do not do nerve blocks immediately beforehand. The perfusion of the blocking material will mask an accurate US. A friend wasted 2 years, and a lot of money with multiple visits to a veterinary school that way. When one look and an US from a well know lameness clinic found a suspensory problem.

    Leave a comment:

  • Wyndwolfe
    Aspoonfulla, you have gotten a lot of good advice and support. Bottom line is there is no easy answer or "fix". What you have done so far is more than many could afford, and cost is almost always something that has to be taken into consideration. FWIW, my own experience (have had a number of horses over a lifetime with varying degrees of arthritis) is that 24/7 turnout can work wonders.

    Leave a comment:

  • Xanthoria
    Originally posted by ASpoonfullaSplash View Post
    Montanas_Girl - She's lame both under saddle and in pasture, but it's not every day and the severity is ever changing. She's on great turnout now - 20 acres for 8+ hours a day weather permitting. If I choose to fully retire her, she is staying right where she is!
    Arthritis is known as a "use it or lose it" disease - in other words, inactivity can cause it to progress faster. In this situation, she may get 8 hours out, but she also gets 16 hours in a stall doing nothing. I would reevaluate your stance on this. I agree with the advice to send her off for 24/7 turnout in a big space with other horses with pain relief, and let her enjoy some life, but if it's arthritis it's not going to improve.

    Arthritis is also progressive, and has no cure. Barring other diagnostics (and I agree that should be done) if the problem is arthritis, you either give this horse some pain relief and enjoy her now, or give her pain relief and retire her, until the pain relief stops working.

    Dr Ramey says it best:

    "I’m going to let you in on a little secret. Once OA has developed, there is nothing – NOTHING – that can be done that has been shown to reverse, or even control, the process. That’s right. No supplement, no drug, no injection, no device (shockwave, magnets, special horseshoes, etc.), can make a joint with OA normal. I mean, think about it. If someone could cure arthritis, that person would make Bill Gates look like a pauper! If there were a cure, why are there so many different treatments? If there were a cure, there would only be one treatment, and everyone would use it (like, say, antibiotics for bacterial infections)."

    If joint injections, adequan, legend, MSM, previcoxx and other pain killers still leave her in pain, I'm sorry to say the time to let her go has come. Arthritis in horses is a really heartache, and I'm sorry you're facing this with a youngster

    Leave a comment:

  • cruisecontrol
    You are not a failure!

    I think you are being an amazing horse mom. Like abrant says if you can afford it and have access to more vets have the 5th,6th,7th opinion. If your bank account needs a break and she can safely be out in a pasture then by all means find somewhere that will keep eyes on her and let her rest.

    Ultimately it's up to you as the owner since no matter how hard we try we can't get our horses to tell us where exactly they are ouchy. I had an AQHA gelding who after his 13th birthday just was NQR and I poured everything into him to get him to be pasture/light riding sound the last few years of his life but at 18 the navicular and arthritis and abscesses were just too much for him. I do hope you can find a solution for your girl as I can tell you love her.

    There is absolutely no shame in euthanasia as much as it sucks and sucks and sucks some more if you believe you have done everything you can for that horse it is a loving thing to do for them. I send jingles and hope that like some of the other posters your vet just missed something on the x-ray or other scans.

    Please keep us updated!

    Leave a comment:

  • abrant
    I had a gelding diagnosed as basically lame from withers to hoof. Injections helped for about a month. Previcoxx didn't really help. Robaxin. Chiropractics. Hock xrays. About $5k in, the third vet finally got a diagnosis on film where no one thought to xray - boney growth in a hind hoof where the collateral ligament moves over the joint.

    A friend had a very slightly off gelding. I think the forth vet after x-rays, injections, adequan, previcoxx, etc finally found the hairline hock fracture.

    My point? If you want to make this work, keep driving for a diagnosis. I'm of the relatively unpopular working opinion right now that I'm simply not willing to inject without a diagnosis. There is just too much refractory short term pain relief to make me feel that it's the right thing to do when you're out of guesses. I wish for my gelding I had spent the $800 on hock injections on more diagnostics to try to get him comfortable faster.

    Leave a comment:

  • ASpoonfullaSplash
    Thank you all so much for the kindness and reassurances! It's been an emotional two years almost and after a while it's hard to get your spirits back up, especially since I'm feeling like I'm in this alone basically. I appreciate all the advice and well wishes so much. Now to respond to some of your thoughts...

    Montanas_Girl - She's lame both under saddle and in pasture, but it's not every day and the severity is ever changing. She's on great turnout now - 20 acres for 8+ hours a day weather permitting. If I choose to fully retire her, she is staying right where she is!

    trubandloki - We did test and give her 2 rounds of treatment for Lyme, even though her Cornell test came back as negative for Lyme. EPM we have not tested, but it also had not been suggested by a vet either. Maybe something to look into?

    joiedevie99 - Mare has never been ultrasounded. Everyone has been on the inject for arthritis train. She was nerve blocked in both femoraltibial (stifle) joints last summer to find a "willingness to move forward and lameness improved but still present" (straight from my vet's progress notes) to follow with blocks in the left tibiotarsal (left hock) and lameness improved greatly. So, the hock and stifle injections were performed that day and lasted about a month. I would like to have xrays done again - gotta save up though. On her bad days that I refer to not being able to trot, she just has such reluctance to move forward and just feels like she can't find her feet as you said. I have not been able to find a pattern - it's seemingly random. We did test and treat for Lyme even though Cornell results came back negative. I'm interested in learning more about the neck arthritis.

    Bluey - HYPP and PSSM have not been brought up yet and I don't know much about it. Definitely going to ask about this.

    4horses - No she does not to my knowledge, but her RF is a slight club. She is trimmed properly every 6 weeks with shoes on the fronts (hind shoes not allowed due to group turnout). Would you mind educating me on this?

    MissAriel - I will have to look into PSSM. No one has brought it up and I don't know much about it!

    NaturalSelection - I appreciate you sharing your experience with me. It's so tough going through this, and your situation is exactly what I hope happens to us. I love my mare more than anything and I would love to bring her home someday.

    Sansena - According to the progress notes, there was no mention of a soft-tissue phase so I am assuming not. Something to look into maybe?

    Groom&Taxi - According to the progress notes, there was "no significant areas of increased radiopharmeceutical uptake." The nuc scan was of her hindlimbs, pelvis and spine. The vet told me there was a 50% chance something would show on this scan.

    Feliz - Thank you for the advice!

    SLS - Ugh, I'm so sorry you're in this situation too. I'm keeping you and your horse in my thoughts and I hope the problem is found and treatable!

    Texarkana - Thank you for the kind words. That is pretty much where my head is at, and I'm sure she is more than happy to retire, so we'll see how it goes. I just wish I could have prevented whatever went wrong.

    buck22 - Thanks for the input! I think my plan is to turn her out for awhile to see what time off can do for her. I do hope we can come back to work someday as she has so much time left - hopefully to 39 like your boy! That's incredible!

    Thank you all, again. I appreciate the support and advice of those with more knowledge than I have.

    Leave a comment:

  • buck22
    Oh wow, OP your post gave me flashbacks to 20 years ago when I was 20-something and the real Buck was going through something eerily similar. He had horrible hocks on film, but that never was the problem - he had a stifle issue, tore his meniscus (we were competing in slop footing and he slipped). Took years to diagnose as every vet went after his hocks (he has capped hocks too, so vets would just get radar lock on his hocks). I literally had to beg vets to treat his stifle, nobody believed stifle from the way he moved and his rads.

    Only thing that worked was turning him out 24/7 and keeping him moving, and paying attention to footcare carefully, never letting his hind toes get long at all.

    1 year of turnout and we went from unable to ride to back to competing.

    That was over 20 years ago, and he's 39 years old now, still bopping around his paddock happy as a clam.

    Leave a comment:

  • Texarkana
    I'm so sorry OP. You're not a failure and you've done WAY more that what most would do.

    Given your love for the horse, I would also suggest turning her out and letting Dr. Green take a crack at it. Pull her shoes and see if she can get herself right.

    Also, sometimes there are things going on that can't be fixed. Conformational defects in the spine, irreversible neuro problems, etc. It's awful and heartbreaking, but it's not your fault.

    Leave a comment:

  • SLS
    I really feel for you. I’m going through something similar with my gelding who turned 7 today. I’ve had him a year and a half and about a week and a half ago (after being ridden after having the winter off) came up lame. Thought it was because his feet were overgrown and sore from going from not being used to used all of a sudden. Had him trimmed and he still is sore. Thought maybe laminitis and ruled that out as his feet are fine and there is hardly any green grass to be had. We now figure it’s ringbone. He may also now have some teeth issues 😞. I was told about a really good vet about 2 hours from me that specializes in lameness-I’m hoping to take him to figure what exactly is going on.

    It’s so heartbreaking when you find your forever horse that is your perfect match and you have to possibly retire them at such a young age. I’m hoping I can get
    my guy sound enough to pleasure ride.

    Good luck to you, I hope things work out for you. And your not a failure as a horse owner.

    Leave a comment:

  • Feliz
    Aspoonfull – please don’t feel like a failure. You have had multiple vets involved and followed their advice – you have done and are doing your absolute best for this girl.

    I think you have a few options, in no particular order
    One – turn out for a year and see what you have
    Two – pursue further diagnostics
    Three - euthanasia

    If you can’t spend more at this stage then I see nothing wrong with turn out, as long as she is comfortable in the pasture with no shoes. The ideal situation in my mind would be a small, settled group in a big pasture with plenty of shelter and rolling hills (+10acres). Horses would be visually checked daily, have an experienced hand run over them once a week or so, regular hoofcare & worming.

    If, and only if, you can actually afford it, I’d be wanting to go to a really good sport horse vet and do one more lameness work up, starting with nerve blocking, then pursuing, within reason, what that turned up. I’d be leaning very heavily towards ultrasounding the hind suspensories – the on/off nature of the lameness and the one month result from the hock injections make me think of this. If nothing conclusive found on nerve blocks then I’d just turn her out and cross my fingers or go straight to option 3.

    The third option, well, I wouldn’t rule it out. You have already done a lot of diagnostics and are no closer to figuring out what is going on. She is clearly pretty uncomfortable and possibly in significant pain at times. Unfortunately, like Montana’s girl said, I haven’t seen many good outcomes for horses this young that are having serious soundness issues.

    I went through a similar thing – bought a 6yo horse who had never been in serious work. Had on/off soundness issues for the entire time I owned her – just a little off on a tight circle to the right, then fine for months. After spending a lot of money, different vets, barefoot, fancy shoes, supplements, feed etc etc I ended up giving her away to a friend. She was the same until she died – always NQR for a bit, then fine for months, then NQR again.

    I’ve watched friends & acquaintances go through the same – it’s heartbreaking, wallet emptying and soul-destroying. I won’t do it again – if I can’t get to the bottom of it/fix it/have a diagnosis in 12mths then that’s it.

    Good luck with whatever you decide – I know you’re doing all that you can. Please be kind to yourself.

    Leave a comment:

  • Groom&Taxi
    Not sure if the nuclear scan/diagnostics done would have picked up something like kissing spines, arthritis in the neck, or something higher in the pelvis/SI? From the facts presented, it seems to me that the problem almost has to originate somewhere other than a leg.

    Leave a comment:

  • Sansena
    During nuclear scintigraphy, was a soft - tissue phase done?

    Leave a comment:

  • NaturalSelection
    I’m sorry to hear about the struggles you are having with your mare. I had a similar experience with a horse I purchased that had been off the track for a year. This horse even “passed” a PPE...but just couldn’t hold up to regular work. Like you, I chased arthritis and injections around all four legs (main problem in LF fetlock and SI, but other body parts would compensate and the pain would move around, like playing whack-a-mole).

    After a year of struggle, I chose to retire my beautiful 6yo TB gelding that I had purchased to be my upper level eventer. It was a financial stretch, but I found a cheap place for pasture board and managed to afford a second riding horse. Seven years later, when I finally had a hobby farm, I brought Apollo home. Apollo is very special to me, extremely kind and quiet on the ground but too hot and spooky undersaddle to be a beginner’s trail horse (which is all he was physically capable of handling).

    I am happy with my choices, but I don’t expect everyone to be able to support a horse that way and I wouldn’t necessarily offer that deal to every horse I own. Horses live a long time and can be a significant expense.

    Good luck and feel better, it sounds like you are doing everything you can for your mare.

    Leave a comment:

  • MissAriel
    Originally posted by trubandloki View Post
    With it being on and off and no one is really sure what leg it is it makes me ask this frequently asked question - have you tested for Lyme or EPM?
    or PSSM and HYPP? A friend's paint cross with intermittent unsoundness that moved from leg to leg ended up testing positive for PSSM. She did all kinds of diagnostics and such, like you are doing. After the diagnosis of PSSM, a relatively simple change to his diet and exercise program really made a huge improvement.

    For PSSM daily exercise and long warm up and cool down are important. Is there a correlation between her good/bad days and her exercise schedule?

    Leave a comment: