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Ethics of keeping Pony with 27 degree rotation going...Help!

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  • #21
    Originally posted by MThorselady View Post
    S1969

    If I had all the money in the world it still begs the question of what is ethical for the pony.

    For every decision it should be more “should we” than “can we”

    "He's not even a good pathological liar." Mara

    "You're just a very desperate troll, and not even a good one. You're like middle-school troll at best. Like a goblin, not even a troll." et_fig

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    • #22
      Originally posted by MThorselady View Post
      S1969 I definitely understand the connection between founder and cushings as I have managed it in my mare for 17 years. I don’t have the money to treat the cushings because I already have my mare of 21 years on Pergolide among other meds and a second foundered rescue pony. That was the consideration for giving her to a better funded rescue. But it would break my heart if she were given away only to go through more dead end treatment and end up euthanized somewhere else. If she is to ultimately be put down I feel she should be in her forever home where she is loved. My ferrier is an experienced (25+ Years) podiatrist and feels she has a slim to none chance to make it through any sort of aggressive trimming. We are at a standstill with the affectivness of her treatments and that is where my difficult decision is coming in to play- figuring out what is best for her.

      If I had all the money in the world it still begs the question of what is ethical for the pony.
      Well if neither you nor your farrier feel that the pony can recover, I'm not sure why you asked.

      My point was that if you treated the Cushings there might be a chance that the pony could recover, which would not be unethical to attempt. Hoof neglect isn't good but it can often be reversible with good farrier work. But if there is an underlying metabolic issue the farrier can't really make any headway.

      If you don't treat the Cushings, then I agree that recovery is unlikely - euthanasia is the better choice. Cushings is a terrible disease.

      Comment


      • #23


        Originally posted by S1969 View Post

        Well if neither you nor your farrier feel that the pony can recover, I'm not sure why you asked.

        My point was that if you treated the Cushings there might be a chance that the pony could recover, which would not be unethical to attempt. Hoof neglect isn't good but it can often be reversible with good farrier work. But if there is an underlying metabolic issue the farrier can't really make any headway.

        If you don't treat the Cushings, then I agree that recovery is unlikely - euthanasia is the better choice. Cushings is a terrible disease.
        A 27 degree rotation is difficult to overcome in the absolute best of circumstances. Even if the OP chose to treat the Cushings, it will make no difference in the rotation that has already occurred. A 27 degree rotation is not going to be reversible with good farrier work, especially since the mini has been in this condition for quite some time. Sorry, that is NOT realistic.

        And if the OP chooses to euthanize, no one should blame her. If she chooses to not treat for Cushings and euthanize, no one should blame her.

        The OP states she received the mini in this situation. It is not like it happened or was created while the mini was in her care. And four months later she is still in pain, which is unlikely to get better, and could get worse. It is not like she has denied this animal care according to her first post.

        While I cannot speak for the OP, maybe she came here for support or advice from people who have experienced such a severe rotation. It helps to have people who understand what you are going through, and how tough end of life decisions can be.

        Sometimes the best we can do is give them one incredible day, and then the kindest, gentlest passing possible.
        "You can't fix stupid"- Ron White

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        • Original Poster

          #24
          Originally posted by S1969 View Post

          Well if neither you nor your farrier feel that the pony can recover, I'm not sure why you asked.
          I asked because my heart and my head are fighting and I had hoped help from other horse people would help me come to the correct decision. It’s called reaching out for help and support, getting a second opinion, double checking my thoughts are fair. I hope if you are ever in this situation no one questions why you asked for help like you just did.

          I asked the question of ethics because my heart is ripped apart. Because my quit isn’t over but my pocket book and my conscious are. Because there is a 6 year old girl attached to this whole situation that is learning what rescuing is about, and what it means to care for other people’s cast offs, to not give up, and to do the right thing even when it hurts. I asked you all because I needed support in a disappointing, confusing, painful, and unfair situation. Simple as that.

          Thank you for the information you shared and your opinion.

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          • #25
            I think the ethical choice is to let her pass while it is still warm and there are bits of green grass left. She experienced kindness and compassion in her final months. Even with intense intervention it sounds like the likelihood she will have a comfortable and easy winter are slim.

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            • #26
              Originally posted by GraceLikeRain View Post
              I think the ethical choice is to let her pass while it is still warm and there are bits of green grass left. She experienced kindness and compassion in her final months. Even with intense intervention it sounds like the likelihood she will have a comfortable and easy winter are slim.
              Agree, she is obviously in pain despite best efforts. I would definitely euthanize. I wouldn't try anything else, honestly. Poor pony only knows the pain she feels every day, that's very stressful for a flight animal.
              "If you don't have anything nice to say, don't say anything at all".

              Comment


              • #27
                Originally posted by MThorselady View Post

                I asked because my heart and my head are fighting and I had hoped help from other horse people would help me come to the correct decision. It’s called reaching out for help and support, getting a second opinion, double checking my thoughts are fair. I hope if you are ever in this situation no one questions why you asked for help like you just did.

                I asked the question of ethics because my heart is ripped apart. Because my quit isn’t over but my pocket book and my conscious are. Because there is a 6 year old girl attached to this whole situation that is learning what rescuing is about, and what it means to care for other people’s cast offs, to not give up, and to do the right thing even when it hurts. I asked you all because I needed support in a disappointing, confusing, painful, and unfair situation. Simple as that.

                Thank you for the information you shared and your opinion.
                I am in this situation. I took on this same pony (he was being given away and needed a soft landing, so not technically a rescue). And I have to reevaluate the quality of his life at least once or twice every year. No one would ever question my decision to euthanize him because he's a metabolic nightmare. Rescues are expensive.

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                • #28
                  Originally posted by MThorselady View Post

                  I asked because my heart and my head are fighting and I had hoped help from other horse people would help me come to the correct decision. It’s called reaching out for help and support, getting a second opinion, double checking my thoughts are fair. I hope if you are ever in this situation no one questions why you asked for help like you just did.

                  I asked the question of ethics because my heart is ripped apart. Because my quit isn’t over but my pocket book and my conscious are. Because there is a 6 year old girl attached to this whole situation that is learning what rescuing is about, and what it means to care for other people’s cast offs, to not give up, and to do the right thing even when it hurts. I asked you all because I needed support in a disappointing, confusing, painful, and unfair situation. Simple as that.

                  Thank you for the information you shared and your opinion.
                  Rescue is not for the faint of heart and not every case can be "saved"

                  IMO, there is also nothing wrong with letting one's pocketbook weigh in on decision such as this. As many have said, the decision to euthanize or not is a very personal choice, depending on the people involved and the animal in question.

                  You won't be 'giving up on her' if you choose to let her go. You'll be making that last hard decision in her best interest. Your mare knowns only now and now she's in pain. Maybe in the future she won't be but you don't know that and she definitely doesn't know that. Sound like pain meds aren't controlling the pain.

                  Spoil her rotten and spend time with her and be with her when she gets to be free of pain for the time since you rescued her. Know that she was loved at the end and there is nothing wrong with that.



                  If you see your glass as half empty, pour it into a smaller glass and stop b*tching

                  Comment


                  • #29
                    Tramadol? That’s an opioid, I refused to take it for recent Dental surgery, had to take it to a special disposal facility ( police station) to keep it out if the landfill, there was a big insert in the package regarding disposal of unused opioids., Never imagined it would be used in Equines. Isox allegedly acts as a blood thinner, I’ve used it for Navicular but not recently as it’s fallen out of favor, we switched to Aspirin, supposedly did the same thing but waaay cheaper. Previcoxx/Equioxx is a very effective painkiller. If she’s on all this and it’s not doing anything? I can’t imagine this poor little mare has any quality of life and takes no joy from each pain filled day.

                    I don’t think there is much question what the most humane choice is for her. NEVER let anybody guilt you into thinking there’s anything wrong with considering the financial commitment to keep a horse with deteriorating health that’s in pain even with heavy duty drugs around. Even many humans don’t make that choice for themselves, why force it on an animal we are supposed to be a steward for? You’ve done more then anybody else ever did for her, no shame to let her go in peace.
                    When opportunity knocks it's wearing overalls and looks like work.

                    The horse world. Two people. Three opinions.

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                    • #30
                      It may be worth it to reach out to Josh Dolan of the Peeps Foundation. He is very nice and incredibly knowledgeable and may be able to give you some peace in your decision if you decide to euthanize. Good luck with whatever you decide - it is never easy!

                      http://www.thepeepsfoundation.com/our-story.html

                      Comment


                      • #31
                        Originally posted by MThorselady View Post

                        yes, it’s a confirmed degree. No penetration as she had plenty of sole. The biggest issue has been, as soon as she is trimmed down to an ok looking hoof, she becomes so sore she can barely walk. The combination of isoxiprine, previcox, and tramadol does nothing noticeable. She lays down for several hours during the day. If she develops the slipper hooves (which seems to happen overnight) it seems to be more comfortable but that’s not normal to allow to happen. It just doesn’t seem humane to keep her going. She doesn’t owe us anything, poor girl. I will attach photos of her initial radio graphs.
                        Normally some sort of hoof support is needed to makes these horses comfortable after a de-rotating trim. Making the hoof look “normal” would happen as it grows out. Have you considered Softrides? There’s definitely a lot of rotation but the coffin bone looks in good shape. (My Cushings foundered gelding has a coffin bone that looks almost feathered in places). The vet I’m working with specializes in laminitis and he thinks these type of horses feel better on bute.

                        So, good trim ,hoof support and bute might be worth a try. As a quick fix to see if support will help, try the styrofoam protocol. Basically you tape layers of styrofoam to their feet. I think it has to be a certain type.

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                        • Original Poster

                          #32
                          JBD We’ve done the boots and styrofoam rout with packing as well as bute but due to ponies propensity for liver issues my vet wasn’t comfortable with long term use...which is where the Tramadol came into play. Thank you for your ideas and offering help!

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                          • Original Poster

                            #33
                            NelsonB Thank you for the resource!

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                            • #34
                              Euthanasia would be the kindest thing for wee pone. That's putting the pony first and giving them the gift of a pain-free passing. I agree with another poster: let wee pone eat everything under the sun they normally can't have and then peace.

                              (((( Many hugs ))))
                              <>< Sorrow Looks Back. Worry Looks Around. Faith Looks Up! -- Being negative only makes a difficult journey more difficult. You may be given a cactus, but you don't have to sit on it.

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                              • Original Poster

                                #35
                                Thank you all for your support and help. After so much thought and discussion with her vet, ferrier, and knowledgeable horse people, sweet Belle will be put to sleep on the 13th. She will finally have had her very own little girl, known kindness, love, and quality care. We are so very sad that we couldn’t help her more but we all have closure that she deserves to be free. She will be buried out in the pasture, always a part of our family. Again, thank you all for your support.

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                                • #36
                                  Wise choice. When I put mine down, much spoiling the last week and there was a large bottle of molasses involved inprepping those last meals. Spoil the crap out of her.
                                  When opportunity knocks it's wearing overalls and looks like work.

                                  The horse world. Two people. Three opinions.

                                  Comment


                                  • #37
                                    Originally posted by MThorselady View Post
                                    Thank you all for your support and help. After so much thought and discussion with her vet, ferrier, and knowledgeable horse people, sweet Belle will be put to sleep on the 13th. She will finally have had her very own little girl, known kindness, love, and quality care. We are so very sad that we couldn’t help her more but we all have closure that she deserves to be free. She will be buried out in the pasture, always a part of our family. Again, thank you all for your support.
                                    (((((HUGS)))))
                                    "You can't fix stupid"- Ron White

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                                    • #38
                                      So many hugs to you! And thank you for doing right by her.
                                      You have to have experiences to gain experience.

                                      1998 Morgan mare Mythic Feronia "More Valley Girl Than Girl Scout!"

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                                      • #39
                                        Usually if you have to ask (or start thinking about it) then it is time.

                                        It is a never a wrong decision to put down an animal that is in pain and suffering. Hugs to you.
                                        It is not enough to know how to ride; one must know how to fall.

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                                        • #40
                                          Thank you for loving and caring about your pony enough to let her rest in peace.

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