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Summit IM joint "supplement"

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    Summit IM joint "supplement"

    This seems to be a newer (?) product for joint support on the market. It's non prescription, apparently low molecular weight pure chondroitin that was initially developed for corneal surgeries.

    I searched the forums but haven't found any posts on this product. At $30/month after the loading dose it could be a better option than feed through supplements. Some associated vets and reps are saying that it's been effective in adequan refractory cases.

    Any personal experience or thoughts? I'm skeptical but hopeful. They also have a FB page.

    http://www.summitjp.com/
    Original Poster

    #2
    Well I looked into it. It seems intriguing. But a couple things have rubbed me the wrong way.

    They sponsor a rider that, IMO, isn't one I want to "support" ....

    And while their website talks about keeping it "affordable" a distributor contacted me and suggested I could buy it from her and then mark it up "whatever I want" to sell to others, and she does this regularly... Although why you'd buy from a distributor at a significant price increase vs the website is beyond me.



    Comment


      #3
      I wish I could find the article--it was in Practical Horseman or The Chronicle or maybe Bloodhorse--where one of these "device" joint juice injectibles was actually studied for equine arthritis. They found it made things WORSE. They repeated the study because the manufacturer asked, and got the same results again. I think Frisbie at CSU ran the study?

      I will keep looking for it, but it was very interesting. I'd be super leery of any of the "device" injectible joint therapies as you would Legend or Adequan after reading it.

      Comment

        Original Poster

        #4
        What do you mean "device?"

        Its is not a term i am familiar with.

        Comment

          Original Poster

          #5
          According to one of their "distributors" it's formerly known as condranol.

          Comment

            Original Poster

            #6
            Originally posted by Simkie View Post
            I wish I could find the article--it was in Practical Horseman or The Chronicle or maybe Bloodhorse--where one of these "device" joint juice injectibles was actually studied for equine arthritis. They found it made things WORSE. They repeated the study because the manufacturer asked, and got the same results again. I think Frisbie at CSU ran the study?

            I will keep looking for it, but it was very interesting. I'd be super leery of any of the "device" injectible joint therapies as you would Legend or Adequan after reading it.
            I now understand your term "device". I'm trying to find the article as well but no luck.

            Comment


              #7
              Originally posted by RegentLion View Post
              What do you mean "device?"

              Its is not a term i am familiar with.
              These "joint" therapies that are not a prescription and are licensed for things other than IV/IM/IA use to treat arthritis are licensed with the FDA as a medical device. Not as a drug. The testing and such for them is less rigorous than something like Legend or Adequan.

              This stuff is a device used in corneal surgeries. Ichon is a device used in wound closure. There are more of them. While it makes sense that perhaps they can be used as we would use Legend or Adequan, at far less cost (because they didn't have to go through DRUG approvals with the FDA, or show that they worked in joints at all) the article that I read described a study done that showed that the one they studied actually had *negative* effects. Which is obviously quite concerning.

              Comment


                #8
                The article is in the April 24, 2017 issue of the Chronicle and is titled "IV Polyglycan May Hurt More Than It Helps." It starts on page 124.

                "However, when researchers administered the product IV, they found worse results in limb flexions and radiographic images, as well as greater degrees of bone edema, than in horses who received the placebo."

                Polyglycan is another device. It's an intra-articular surgical lubricant, but people use it IV and IM.

                Comment

                  Original Poster

                  #9
                  Glad you found it... I've been on a wild goose chase.

                  this stuff is apparently "pure" chondroitin. And it sounds like there are no intentions of the company seeking FDA approval for this purpose.

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Originally posted by RegentLion View Post
                    Glad you found it... I've been on a wild goose chase.

                    this stuff is apparently "pure" chondroitin. And it sounds like there are no intentions of the company seeking FDA approval for this purpose.
                    No, of course they wouldn't. They can sell a boatload of it without getting drug approval and not have to undertake the serious cost drug approval requires.

                    But there's also no evidence that it will work as they claim or that it won't HURT--like the Polyglycan.

                    We've always kind of thought that these devices could piggyback on the research done by the name brands, but the Frisbie study demonstrated--twice--that we cannot make that assumption.

                    This is the study being discussed in the article.

                    Comment

                      Original Poster

                      #11
                      But adequan (name brand) and polyglycans aren't even the same thing, right? So why would "they work the same even be an assumption?" Struggling to understand the logic.

                      Comment


                        #12
                        Originally posted by RegentLion View Post
                        But adequan (name brand) and polyglycans aren't even the same thing, right? So why would "they work the same even be an assumption?" Struggling to understand the logic.
                        Polyglycan is a product. It contains 50 mg hyaluronic sodium salt, 1000 mg sodium chondroitin sulfate and 1000 mg N-acetyl-D-glucosamine.

                        Legend is 10 mg hyaluronate sodium.

                        Adequan is 500 mg of Polysulfated Glycosaminoglycan.

                        It was not unreasonable to think that Polyglycan could be beneficial.

                        This article looks like it might be worth a read for some basic information: http://threeoaksequine.com/systemicequinejointtherapy/

                        Comment

                          Original Poster

                          #13
                          Originally posted by Simkie View Post

                          Polyglycan is a product. It contains 50 mg hyaluronic sodium salt, 1000 mg sodium chondroitin sulfate and 1000 mg N-acetyl-D-glucosamine.

                          Legend is 10 mg hyaluronate sodium.

                          Adequan is 500 mg of Polysulfated Glycosaminoglycan.

                          It was not unreasonable to think that Polyglycan could be beneficial.

                          This article looks like it might be worth a read for some basic information: http://threeoaksequine.com/systemicequinejointtherapy/
                          I know what the products are but from what I understand polyglycan is not bio-equivalent to Adequan. It's not "just a generic" like OTC pills can have generics.

                          So I don't understand why people would even think that IV polyglycan would be the same as Adequan and that adequan studies could be applied.

                          Comment


                            #14
                            Originally posted by RegentLion View Post

                            I know what the products are but from what I understand polyglycan is not bio-equivalent to Adequan. It's not "just a generic" like OTC pills can have generics.

                            So I don't understand why people would even think that IV polyglycan would be the same as Adequan and that adequan studies could be applied.
                            The article I linked before might help explain how people have made these cognitive leaps. No one is saying it's a generic of Adequan. People are applying the research from products like Adequan and Legend and guessing that it may be of benefit.

                            But that begs the question......why are you interested at all in an injectible chondroitin? I don't think there's an approved product like that at ALL on the market? So why would you want to use it?? Because it "works" in a feed through? Well, apply that same reasoning to these other device injectibles to understand why people inject Polyglycan into their horses.

                            Comment

                              Original Poster

                              #15
                              Originally posted by Simkie View Post

                              The article I linked before might help explain how people have made these cognitive leaps. No one is saying it's a generic of Adequan. People are applying the research from products like Adequan and Legend and guessing that it may be of benefit.

                              But that begs the question......why are you interested at all in an injectible chondroitin? I don't think there's an approved product like that at ALL on the market? So why would you want to use it?? Because it "works" in a feed through? Well, apply that same reasoning to these other device injectibles to understand why people inject Polyglycan into their horses.
                              I'm interested because there was a rather lengthy FB discussion about it and how it's the next best thing. So I thought i would look into it before I blindly injected it into my horse because it "sounded reasonable"

                              ETA: I do not believe feed through supplements "work". I don't do injectible glucosamine. I do use adequan and I will do joint injections (well the vet does). So I'm not the "jump on the bandwagon type."

                              Comment


                                #16
                                Originally posted by RegentLion View Post

                                I'm interested because there was a rather lengthy FB discussion about it and how it's the next best thing. So I thought i would look into it before I blindly injected it into my horse because it "sounded reasonable"

                                ETA: I do not believe feed through supplements "work". I don't do injectible glucosamine. I do use adequan and I will do joint injections (well the vet does). So I'm not the "jump on the bandwagon type."
                                Yep, well...look to all those people to try to understand why people blindly inject things into their horses

                                I don't think joint supplements work either--hence the quotes around the word work

                                Comment

                                  Original Poster

                                  #17
                                  Originally posted by Simkie View Post

                                  Yep, well...look to all those people to try to understand why people blindly inject things into their horses

                                  I don't think joint supplements work either--hence the quotes around the word work


                                  Well we're on the same page then!!!!

                                  If time and real science prove this helpful, great. Until then other people can be the test subjects. I'll be watching with interest though. And I'm a little alarmed by the pro rider they have picked to be their #1 sponsored rider.

                                  Comment


                                    #18
                                    I sent my vet an e-mail this morning asking about this. It's being discussed on a FB group where vets post answers, and they were saying really positive things about it, which is why I e-mailed my vet. The fact that it's an IM injection with no prescription needed worried me a little

                                    Comment


                                      #19
                                      I messaged my sports med lameness vet about this product and he said to give it a try, he did not have any concerns. Definitely not the concerns he had about ordering pentosan from a place like Horse Pre-Race. I think I am going to give this a try for my older gelding and see if I can avoid spring joint injections.

                                      Comment


                                        #20
                                        Guys, do note that chondroitin is an ingredient in the Polygycan that was found to make arthritic joints WORSE. Frisbie's study didn't break down which element was responsible for bone edema and poor flexion tests, but I don't think we have a product that's analogous to this Summit stuff where it's possible to draw conclusions as to it's efficacy, or at least say it won't cause the same harm as the Polyglycan.

                                        Go post Frisbie's study and the article in the Chronicle in your vet group and ask. I sure wouldn't touch it with a 10 foot pole, though.

                                        eta: I can't believe that they're actually marketing it as an injectible for joints. The FDA is going to get wind of that and shut that shit down PRONTO. You cannot license as a device and market as a drug. Huuuuuuge no no.
                                        Last edited by Simkie; Mar. 6, 2018, 11:10 AM.

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