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Cuckson article on eventing XC safety in Horse Canada

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  • #41
    Originally posted by Winding Down View Post

    Where did you get this information? I am curious where this is documented.
    As it said in my posts, it’s from the original Hartington report/Transport Research Lab work on rotational falls. It’s been discussed on this forum many, many, many times over the past 15+ years, so I’m sure if you do a search either on here or via Google, you’ll find what you’re looking for. IIRC, the BE site had most of these documents.

    Comment


    • #42
      Originally posted by Winding Down View Post

      How many times do we need to point out that we are not looking at absolute numbers but numbers per starters. Pleeeeze look at the stats.... Puleeeeeze That thread is a chorus of people who believe that eventing is doomed and getting worse and is more dangerous now than it has been in years past. That is false. In an absolute sense.

      To use your logic, what we really need to do is get fewer people to enter events so that fewer people and horses would die.
      My logic is to do research so we can help PREVENT deaths actually... like come on.

      I started that thread, and it wasn't to say Eventing is doomed. It was to say that it doesn't seem like anyone cares that people and horses were dying. We have gone somewhere from there. Not far but somewhere.

      Wheres your data on increased numbers of participants, by what I am hearing numbers are down. 10 years ago I was Eventing in Scotland and Ireland and events had 200+ entries. No small numbers. 1 in 17k dies Eventing. Consider about 1000 people AT LEAST a weekend in North America alone are Eventing, are we comfortable with that number? I'm not. It means 2-5 average people a year die.

      Do you have concrete numbers that contradict my post? Please share number of entries from last 15 years to now so I can be informed.

      Also, the guy I worked for in Ireland, and a very popular horse sales stable (think popular name), sell horses to the very very top riders in the US. ALL those horses have hunted as 3 and 4 year olds. Buck Davidsons horses come from my past employer, trust me, they hunted. In Ireland where hunting is INSANE lol
      Boss Mare Eventing Blog
      https://www.youtube.com/user/jealoushe

      Comment


      • #43
        Originally posted by Winding Down View Post
        Puleeeeeze That thread is a chorus of people who believe that eventing is doomed and getting worse and is more dangerous now than it has been in years past.
        Wow. What a sweeping -- and ignorant -- insult that is.

        Comment


        • #44
          Originally posted by JER View Post

          Wow. What a sweeping -- and ignorant -- insult that is.
          meh, not going there with you, girlfriend. Just not.
          Last edited by Winding Down; Oct. 12, 2017, 07:21 AM.

          Comment


          • #45
            Originally posted by Jealoushe View Post

            My logic is to do research so we can help PREVENT deaths actually... like come on.

            I started that thread, and it wasn't to say Eventing is doomed. It was to say that it doesn't seem like anyone cares that people and horses were dying. We have gone somewhere from there. Not far but somewhere.

            Wheres your data on increased numbers of participants, by what I am hearing numbers are down. 10 years ago I was Eventing in Scotland and Ireland and events had 200+ entries. No small numbers. 1 in 17k dies Eventing. Consider about 1000 people AT LEAST a weekend in North America alone are Eventing, are we comfortable with that number? I'm not. It means 2-5 average people a year die.

            Do you have concrete numbers that contradict my post? Please share number of entries from last 15 years to now so I can be informed.

            Also, the guy I worked for in Ireland, and a very popular horse sales stable (think popular name), sell horses to the very very top riders in the US. ALL those horses have hunted as 3 and 4 year olds. Buck Davidsons horses come from my past employer, trust me, they hunted. In Ireland where hunting is INSANE lol
            Jealoushe, I totally believe that your intent is good. But I do think there is a bandwagon pile-on throughout the "What the Fuck" thread. There are really good things happening in eventing today. There are many people who are donating countless hours (superb and talented researchers) to safety research. There are a lot of data out there.

            There are some who post often on the WTF thread who never post on a thread about US rider successes, 4* events that have no injuries, etc. or any of the "good" about our sport. The same people are also quick to blast the US eventing team (like being highly critical of a rider who makes a mistake but never acknowledge when that same rider is fabulous). It is as if they are focused only on the "bad and the doom" and do not wish to smile upon our sport. They imply (by eliminating other reasons) that our top riders are only in it for the money, do not work hard, and cannot train horses. I find it tedious. And sad.

            But that's only a very few people and it reminds me of my local community where we have a wonderful group of people who work for the good of the community and a couple of people who show up to every Board of Supervisors meeting and criticize, confront, accuse, and degrade those who are in power. It is the nature of social groups that there will always be a few who push down rather than pull up...

            I won't pull out quotes, as I really do not wish to have some others antagonize and engage in hostile finger-pointing. But there is so much in the WTF thread that really doesn't take into account real numbers with real horses and riders (the one study that is cited in this thread is 15 years old and does not include empirical results for horse/rider injury with frangible pins), and that one study is somehow used to state that frangible pins are for rider and NOT for horse safety, and there is an assumption that frangible pins increase the probability of a horse breaking its neck. I searched high and low for data on that and I cannot find any.

            For starts, here is something that may be of interest to you: http://inside.fei.org/system/files/A...%20-%20USA.pdf

            I will pull up (again) the numbers on increases over the years in entries.

            Again, I am totally with you on concerns about injuries in our sport. Totally. But where we differ is in evaluating changes over the years in safety. I am looking at the numbers and concluding that the change is in a positive direction. If you have numbers that indicate otherwise, please share. Google is our friend.

            I do sincerely believe that we want the same things for our sport.

            Peace.

            Comment


            • #46
              Originally posted by hubbabubba View Post
              We see lots of falls in Europe on MIM fences where the clips DID NOT release and the true believers of the clips ALWAYS have an answer about the horse not hitting the fence hard enough. They didn't hit it in the in the right angle etc. etc.

              Coming up with technology to save lives is good but not if the people using the very same technology are pigheaded and narrow minded and don't admit to any errors in the process. That's how development stops and things become truly dangerous!
              Can you describe some of the instances, including the Poland EEC accident? You are seeing rotational falls on Fences where MIMs clips didn't deploy?

              Comment


              • #47
                Originally posted by Winding Down View Post
                I thought that the forces involved in a rotational fall are initially horizontal, followed by vertical, so if the jump collapses this allows the fence to be driven forwards in the same direction as the horse. So wouldn't this reduce the rotational speed and give the horse a better chance of recovering and staying on his feet?
                You are correct about the forces at work in a rotational fall (horizontal followed by vertical). However, original frangible technology only allowed the fence to be broken under vertical force (I'm talking traditional pins that are not reversed). So the answer to your question would be no - traditional frangible technology is not designed to allow a horse to stay on his feet, but rather to interrupt the trajectory of a full rotation only.

                That is why the continued development of technology is important. MIM clips in particular are designed to break under significant horizontal force as well as vertical, to prevent a potential rotational from ever getting to the point of significant vertical force (which would indicate that both horse and rider are already quite upright). However, while there isn't a ton of documentation on Bob the Builder's encounter with a MIM clipped fence, from what I have read this seems to be how he was injured - he slid into the fence, rather than trying to go over it. That significant horizontal force broke the clip, bringing down the rail, but as he had slid his legs were underneath the fence and the rail came down onto his pastern (someone correct me if this is not the correct version of events, and I will edit - this is my understanding from watching as well as reading the limited articles published after the fact).

                A good example of traditional front pins would be Boyd's fall with Crackerjack at Badminton. The Vicarage Vee was fitted with frangible technology in the form of front pins, and as you can see here (http://www.boydandsilvamartin.com/ho...-horse-trials/), even when Crackers was directly on top of the rail it had not begun to significantly deform (if you look up the series the rail did eventually come down, seen in gif here: https://s3.amazonaws.com/en-site-ass.../05/Boyd-2.gif). Whether or not deforming in that fashion is sufficient to prevent significant injury is up for debate.

                Just want to say as well, Winding Down, that I think you've had some really good points in this thread. Thank you in particular for continuing to distinguish between gross numbers and percentage of starters - accurate data analysis and helpful conclusions depend on it.

                Comment


                • #48
                  Originally posted by Winding Down View Post



                  For starts, here is something that may be of interest to you: http://inside.fei.org/system/files/A...%20-%20USA.pdf
                  There are some good charts in there, I hope they can maintain keeping those records and stats for the next 20+ years so we have an actual comparison in the future. It's really hard to tell if there is an increase or decrease based on the fact that there isn't much data like that from 10+years ago. It's a good start.
                  Boss Mare Eventing Blog
                  https://www.youtube.com/user/jealoushe

                  Comment


                  • #49
                    Originally posted by Jealoushe View Post

                    There are some good charts in there, I hope they can maintain keeping those records and stats for the next 20+ years so we have an actual comparison in the future. It's really hard to tell if there is an increase or decrease based on the fact that there isn't much data like that from 10+years ago. It's a good start.
                    Actually, there are data from years past. The FEI has been more thorough over the past 5-10 years though. I know that I did share data on the decrease over the past decade in injuries per start- somewhere buried in the What the F thread. I think I've shared it at least twice since the thread was started. IIRC, those data were from USEA and not FEI. If I can find the time today, I will try to dig those numbers up. If anyone else has those at their fingertips, please share. And I am sure there are sources other than USEA that have those numbers.

                    Thank you for looking at these most recent stats, Jealoushe. I hope that we can continue conversations like this as I find it important to stay informed. And I am totally amenable to changing my mind based on empirical data. I certainly have been known to change my mind on other matters through this forum.

                    ETA: Here are data from FEI for 10 years on # of starters and more.

                    http://inside.fei.org/system/files/F....02.2016_0.pdf

                    "Total number of starters keeps growing with a 62% increase from 2005 to 2015."

                    see also this article: http://useventing.com/news/taking-cl...stics-eventing
                    Last edited by Winding Down; Oct. 12, 2017, 10:59 AM.

                    Comment


                    • #50
                      Originally posted by Marigold View Post

                      You are correct about the forces at work in a rotational fall (horizontal followed by vertical). However, original frangible technology only allowed the fence to be broken under vertical force (I'm talking traditional pins that are not reversed). So the answer to your question would be no - traditional frangible technology is not designed to allow a horse to stay on his feet, but rather to interrupt the trajectory of a full rotation only.

                      That is why the continued development of technology is important. MIM clips in particular are designed to break under significant horizontal force as well as vertical, to prevent a potential rotational from ever getting to the point of significant vertical force (which would indicate that both horse and rider are already quite upright). However, while there isn't a ton of documentation on Bob the Builder's encounter with a MIM clipped fence, from what I have read this seems to be how he was injured - he slid into the fence, rather than trying to go over it. That significant horizontal force broke the clip, bringing down the rail, but as he had slid his legs were underneath the fence and the rail came down onto his pastern (someone correct me if this is not the correct version of events, and I will edit - this is my understanding from watching as well as reading the limited articles published after the fact).

                      A good example of traditional front pins would be Boyd's fall with Crackerjack at Badminton. The Vicarage Vee was fitted with frangible technology in the form of front pins, and as you can see here (http://www.boydandsilvamartin.com/ho...-horse-trials/), even when Crackers was directly on top of the rail it had not begun to significantly deform (if you look up the series the rail did eventually come down, seen in gif here: https://s3.amazonaws.com/en-site-ass.../05/Boyd-2.gif). Whether or not deforming in that fashion is sufficient to prevent significant injury is up for debate.

                      Just want to say as well, Winding Down, that I think you've had some really good points in this thread. Thank you in particular for continuing to distinguish between gross numbers and percentage of starters - accurate data analysis and helpful conclusions depend on it.
                      Excellent information and the bold above clarifies why I was confused about the statement made by JER that was based on a study from 15 years ago. The technology has changed since those original studies. And I expect that the technology will continue to evolve as more data come in.

                      One issue that seems at the forefront is addressing safety measures for the higher risk square tables. I look forward to seeing data/research/changes there as well.

                      Comment


                      • #51
                        Originally posted by Winding Down View Post

                        ETA: Here are data from FEI for 10 years on # of starters and more.

                        http://inside.fei.org/system/files/F....02.2016_0.pdf

                        "Total number of starters keeps growing with a 62% increase from 2005 to 2015."

                        see also this article: http://useventing.com/news/taking-cl...stics-eventing
                        Thank you.... I wonder why there is so much outcry that our sport is dying and there is no interest when clearly, that is not the case.

                        I also wonder about the stats taken from the FEI level, have numbers grown since the loss of the Long Format, as riders can ride multiple horses at events whereas before they could maybe ride two at most. Interesting stuff.
                        Boss Mare Eventing Blog
                        https://www.youtube.com/user/jealoushe

                        Comment


                        • #52
                          Originally posted by Jealoushe View Post

                          Thank you.... I wonder why there is so much outcry that our sport is dying and there is no interest when clearly, that is not the case.

                          I also wonder about the stats taken from the FEI level, have numbers grown since the loss of the Long Format, as riders can ride multiple horses at events whereas before they could maybe ride two at most. Interesting stuff.
                          There are certainly more events at the FEI level now compared to when we had the long format. I suspect this is because it sometimes took months for a horse to recovery from a 4* long format whereas now they recover in a few weeks or less from the short format. So horses can run in more events per year. I am not sure if riders compete more horses with the short format than they did with the long format.

                          ETA: I believe we have more events at the USEA level as well but those events often do not fill. I recall in the past that if you did not postmark your entry on opening day, you risked not getting into an event like VHT. Now they take late entries etc. We have a LOT more events now compared to the old days, however.

                          Comment


                          • #53
                            Originally posted by CSU92 View Post

                            Can you describe some of the instances, including the Poland EEC accident? You are seeing rotational falls on Fences where MIMs clips didn't deploy?
                            The accident with Bob the Builder and his rider has been on FEI TV along with the rest of the cross. If you watch it you can see the poor horse right front hoof being in 90 degrees angle from the body before he falls on top of it..

                            I have not seen a rotational fall on a MIM but many BAD falls due to bad riding which in my book is part of the problem. Basically riders who don't respect the fences and or trust eventual clips to release or trust a rolltop fence to save them from falling. When themselves instead belong on a lower level of competition. And that's another topic few dare to talk about. There are also many MIMs that release for no preasure what so ever. What does that teach the horses?

                            Comment


                            • #54
                              Originally posted by Jealoushe View Post
                              I wonder why there is so much outcry that our sport is dying and there is no interest when clearly, that is not the case.
                              Were I to guess (and I am guessing), I would say it's because certain areas have seen numbers dropping lately (Ontario, for instance). So you are hearing from the people in those areas, instead of the USEA/EC or FEI as a whole. The other factor is the high profile loss of big events, such as Richland. Of course that's offset in reality by several new venues (Tryon, Jockey Club, etc), but again the offset is coming in different areas.

                              Comment

                              • Original Poster

                                #55
                                Cuckson has a second frangible article on Horse-Canada here:
                                https://www.horse-canada.com/cuckson.../frangibles-2/
                                "I'm a lumberjack, and I'm okay."
                                Thread killer Extraordinaire

                                Comment


                                • #56
                                  Originally posted by vineyridge View Post
                                  Cuckson has a second frangible article on Horse-Canada here:
                                  https://www.horse-canada.com/cuckson.../frangibles-2/
                                  and the take away:

                                  "Supporters of frangible technology recognize that ‘it’ alone will not prevent all rotational falls; however statistics from the FEI and British Eventing (BE) clearly show despite the growing number of participants that rotational falls have reduced significantly over the last few years. What is as important to understand is that while the number of deaths has also gratefully been reduced that too many riders and horses continue to be seriously injured."

                                  This is not unlike how industries have addressed safety in other areas. Think automobile safety research across the decades. The research and development of safety measures goes on forever. It does and it should.

                                  An aside: I was at Virginia Horse Center for the starter trials a couple of weeks ago. I was really impressed that most of the novice xc fences were pinned. I also must note that I did not ride more recklessly or take greater risks knowing that I believe (and hope) that they will not find that riders are more careless when they know a jump is pinned. No one wants to fall off or down, for heavens sake!

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