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Rules question about crossing your path after a refusal on XC

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  • Rules question about crossing your path after a refusal on XC

    This past weekend, I completed my first recognized Training (yay!) with 1 stop on XC. We were given 20 pp and I had no protest with how it was scored. However, my trainer thought that maybe I should have been given 2 refusals at the same fence, so 60 pp. (By the way, a TON of riders in my division - and all the training divisions - had trouble at the same fence - so we still placed even with the refusal).

    Here's what happened: The water complex was 3 elements, 11ABC. The A element was a boathouse about 6 or so strides in front of the water. The B element was a drop into the water. The C element was a boathouse after the water crossing.

    My horse ran out to the right of the A element, the first boathouse. Because of the way he ran out, he ended up beyond the fence, parallel with it facing the left (because he threw his hindquarters to the right as I tried to keep his shoulders in front of the fence, so he continued sideways around it). I was basically just parallel with the fence on the backside of it... then just picked up the left lead canter from there and continued in the direction we were already facing to circle back around to A (so crossing the line between the A and B element). At no point did my horse see the B element or was anywhere near being presented to it. I then jumped ABC in a direct line with no further issues.

    My trainer said that I technically wasn't allowed to go around the back of the A element after the runout - my thought was that they "gave" it to me simply because a) it was clear that my horse was NOT presented to the B element at all and b) we kind of had to go that way because of the way he ran out originally.

    This was at Seneca, so the water complex is in clear view of pretty much everyone, so the announcer definitely saw my stop and he did not say anything other than that I had 1 stop at the water.

    What do you guys think based on the description?


  • #2
    3a seems to agree with your trainer.
    ETA agreed with the below of 3B, I overlooked it. 3B allowed the circle.

    3. CIRCLES. a. At an obstacle composed of several elements (A, B, C, etc.) a horse will be penalized if it passes around any element or circles between elements at any time between first being presented at the obstacle and finally completing the last element. See diagrams App. 7. Also, see EV140.2.c for possible exceptions at black-flagged alternatives. b. After being penalized for a refusal, run-out or circle, a competitor is permitted to cross his original track without penalty in order to make another attempt and may also circle one or more times without penalty, until he again presents his horse at the obstacle. c. At separately numbered obstacles, a competitor may circle between or around them without penalty provided he has not represented his horse at the second or subsequent obstacles. 4. FALLS. a. A competitor is considered to have fallen when he is separated from his horse in such a way as to necessitate remounting or vaulting into the saddle. b. A horse is considered to have fallen when at the same time both its shoulder and quarters have touched either the ground or the obstacle and the ground. c. A fall will always be penalized when it occurs between the elements of an obstacle composed of several elements (A B C). 5. ADDITIONAL ATTEMPTS AT OBSTACLES COMPOSED OF SEVERAL ELEMENTS If after a disobedience at an obstacle composed of several elements a competitor wishes to retake any element already jumped in order to complete negotiation of the obstacle, he may do so. However, he is liable to be penalized for any additional fault even if it is at an element previously jumped successfully. If after a disobedience a competitor wishes to pass through flags in the wrong direction in order to retake an element, he may do so without penalty.
    Last edited by mmeqcenter; Jun. 19, 2017, 04:24 PM.
    "The best of any breed is the thoroughbred horse..." - GHM

    Comment

    • Original Poster

      #3
      Thanks! So it sounds like I was permitted to circle and cross my path in order to re-present to the A element.

      Comment


      • #4
        You had a refusal - how you get back to the A element is your decision. See (b).

        Comment


        • #5
          Yes, 3 b says that, once you have the refusal, and before you re-present to that jump, you can circle as many times as you want.
          Janet

          chief feeder and mucker for Music, Spy, Belle and Tiara. Someone else is now feeding and mucking for Chief and Brain (both foxhunting now).

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by mmeqcenter View Post
            b. After being penalized for a refusal, run-out or circle, a competitor is permitted to cross his original track without penalty in order to make another attempt and may also circle one or more times without penalty, until he again presents his horse at the obstacle.
            This is interesting. At a starter trial recently I was assessed 8 faults in SJ when I pulled my horse off the last fence and circled because I had lost a stirrup after my horse jumped me out of the tack over the previous fence (in a heroic effort after we got to close to the fence). I thought maybe I had circled twice (my trainer didn't remember) but it sounds like we still should have just gotten the 4 faults for the run-out. Oh well...
            Last edited by kcmel; Jun. 19, 2017, 05:13 PM. Reason: grammar

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by kcmel View Post

              This is interesting. At a starter trial recently I was assessed 8 faults in SJ when I pulled my horse off the last fence and circled because I had lost a stirrup after my horse jumped me out of the tack over the previous fence (in a heroic effort after we got to close too the fence). I thought maybe I had circled twice (my trainer didn't remember) but it sounds like we still should have just gotten the 4 faults for the run-out. Oh well...
              Showjumping rules are different, I think.

              Comment


              • #8
                Showjumping rules ARE different.
                But the showjumping rules DO say that "it is not considered to be a disobedience to circle for up to 45 seconds after a a run out or refusal"
                Janet

                chief feeder and mucker for Music, Spy, Belle and Tiara. Someone else is now feeding and mucking for Chief and Brain (both foxhunting now).

                Comment


                • #9
                  In SJ, you would have been assessed 8 faults for the run out if it was your second one on course.
                  there is also a rule about circling the last fence, I believe....
                  The big man -- my lost prince

                  The little brother, now my main man

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Yes, the SJ rules in eventing are different than the XC ones.


                    EV153 does show that a second disobedience (Refusal, run-out, resistance, circle per EV150.4) incurs 8 penalties for BN, N, T, and Modified. I do not see anything special specified about the last fence about more penalties there.



                    4. DISOBEDIENCES a. The following are considered as disobediences and are penalized as such (EV153): 1. a refusal; 2. a run-out; 3. a resistance; 4. a more or less regular circle or group of circles no matter where they occur on the course or for whatever reason. It is also a disobedience to circle around the last obstacle jumped unless the track of the course so requires. b. Notwithstanding the above, it is not considered to be a disobedience to circle for up to 45 seconds after a run-out or a refusal (no matter if the obstacle has to be rebuilt or not) to get into position to jump an obstacle;

                    EV153 Faults 1. Faults made between the starting line and the finishing line must be taken into consideration. 2. Disobediences committed during the time when the round is interrupted (EV152.7) are not penalized. 3. Disobediences, falls etc., occurring between the signal to start and the moment the competitor crosses the starting line in the correct direction, are not penalized. 4. Faults are penalized in penalty points or by elimination as set out in this section (EV153). Obstacle knocked down while jumping 4 penalties First disobedience 4 penalties Second disobedience or other under rule EV154 at Preliminary, Intermediate and Advanced Elimination Second disobedience or other under rule EV154 at Beginner Novice, Novice, Training, and Modified 8 penalties Third disobedience or other under rule EV154 at Beginner Novice, Novice,Training, and Modified Elimination Fall of horse or competitor or both Elimination Exceeding the time limit Elimination Exceeding the time allowed 1 penalty for each second or commenced fraction of a second 5. Penalties for the disobediences accumulate, not just at the same obstacle, but throughout the entire round. BOD 1/16/16 Effective 12/1/16
                    "The best of any breed is the thoroughbred horse..." - GHM

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Good point.
                      If they had given you 2 refusals it would be 12 points, 4 for the first refusal and 8 for the second refusal.
                      Janet

                      chief feeder and mucker for Music, Spy, Belle and Tiara. Someone else is now feeding and mucking for Chief and Brain (both foxhunting now).

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Ahhh...it was the second run-out (if we hadn't had the earlier one I probably would have gone for the last fence with 1 stirrup!).

                        Yes, I did end up with 12 faults. Since the first run-out was not relevant to my story (or so I thought), I did not mention it.

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