• Welcome to the Chronicle Forums.
    Please complete your profile. The forums and the rest of www.chronofhorse.com has single sign-in, so your log in information for one will automatically work for the other. Disclaimer: The opinions expressed here are the views of the individual and do not necessarily reflect the views and opinions of The Chronicle of the Horse.

Announcement

Collapse

Forum rules and no-advertising policy

As a participant on this forum, it is your responsibility to know and follow our rules. Please read this message in its entirety.

Board Rules

1. You’re responsible for what you say.
As outlined in Section 230 of the Communications Decency Act, The Chronicle of the Horse and its affiliates, as well Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd., the developers of vBulletin, are not legally responsible for statements made in the forums.

This is a public forum viewed by a wide spectrum of people, so please be mindful of what you say and who might be reading it—details of personal disputes are likely better handled privately. While posters are legally responsible for their statements, the moderators may in their discretion remove or edit posts that violate these rules. Users have the ability to modify or delete their own messages after posting, but administrators generally will not delete posts, threads or accounts upon request.

Outright inflammatory, vulgar, harassing, malicious or otherwise inappropriate statements and criminal charges unsubstantiated by a reputable news source or legal documentation will not be tolerated and will be dealt with at the discretion of the moderators.

2. Conversations in horse-related forums should be horse-related.
The forums are a wonderful source of information and support for members of the horse community. While it’s understandably tempting to share information or search for input on other topics upon which members might have a similar level of knowledge, members must maintain the focus on horses.

3. Keep conversations productive, on topic and civil.
Discussion and disagreement are inevitable and encouraged; personal insults, diatribes and sniping comments are unproductive and unacceptable. Whether a subject is light-hearted or serious, keep posts focused on the current topic and of general interest to other participants of that thread. Utilize the private message feature or personal email where appropriate to address side topics or personal issues not related to the topic at large.

4. No advertising in the discussion forums.
Posts in the discussion forums directly or indirectly advertising horses, jobs, items or services for sale or wanted will be removed at the discretion of the moderators. Use of the private messaging feature or email addresses obtained through users’ profiles for unsolicited advertising is not permitted.

Company representatives may participate in discussions and answer questions about their products or services, or suggest their products on recent threads if they fulfill the criteria of a query. False "testimonials" provided by company affiliates posing as general consumers are not appropriate, and self-promotion of sales, ad campaigns, etc. through the discussion forums is not allowed.

Paid advertising is available on our classifieds site and through the purchase of banner ads. The tightly monitored Giveaways forum permits free listings of genuinely free horses and items available or wanted (on a limited basis). Items offered for trade are not allowed.

Advertising Policy Specifics
When in doubt of whether something you want to post constitutes advertising, please contact a moderator privately in advance for further clarification. Refer to the following points for general guidelines:

Horses – Only general discussion about the buying, leasing, selling and pricing of horses is permitted. If the post contains, or links to, the type of specific information typically found in a sales or wanted ad, and it’s related to a horse for sale, regardless of who’s selling it, it doesn’t belong in the discussion forums.

Stallions – Board members may ask for suggestions on breeding stallion recommendations. Stallion owners may reply to such queries by suggesting their own stallions, only if their horse fits the specific criteria of the original poster. Excessive promotion of a stallion by its owner or related parties is not permitted and will be addressed at the discretion of the moderators.

Services – Members may use the forums to ask for general recommendations of trainers, barns, shippers, farriers, etc., and other members may answer those requests by suggesting themselves or their company, if their services fulfill the specific criteria of the original post. Members may not solicit other members for business if it is not in response to a direct, genuine query.

Products – While members may ask for general opinions and suggestions on equipment, trailers, trucks, etc., they may not list the specific attributes for which they are in the market, as such posts serve as wanted ads.

Event Announcements – Members may post one notification of an upcoming event that may be of interest to fellow members, if the original poster does not benefit financially from the event. Such threads may not be “bumped” excessively. Premium members may post their own notices in the Event Announcements forum.

Charities/Rescues – Announcements for charitable or fundraising events can only be made for 501(c)(3) tax-exempt organizations. Special exceptions may be made, at the moderators’ discretion and direction, for board-related events or fundraising activities in extraordinary circumstances.

Occasional posts regarding horses available for adoption through IRS-registered horse rescue or placement programs are permitted in the appropriate forums, but these threads may be limited at the discretion of the moderators. Individuals may not advertise or make announcements for horses in need of rescue, placement or adoption unless the horse is available through a recognized rescue or placement agency or government-run entity or the thread fits the criteria for and is located in the Giveaways forum.

5. Do not post copyrighted photographs unless you have purchased that photo and have permission to do so.

6. Respect other members.
As members are often passionate about their beliefs and intentions can easily be misinterpreted in this type of environment, try to explore or resolve the inevitable disagreements that arise in the course of threads calmly and rationally.

If you see a post that you feel violates the rules of the board, please click the “alert” button (exclamation point inside of a triangle) in the bottom left corner of the post, which will alert ONLY the moderators to the post in question. They will then take whatever action, or no action, as deemed appropriate for the situation at their discretion. Do not air grievances regarding other posters or the moderators in the discussion forums.

Please be advised that adding another user to your “Ignore” list via your User Control Panel can be a useful tactic, which blocks posts and private messages by members whose commentary you’d rather avoid reading.

7. We have the right to reproduce statements made in the forums.
The Chronicle of the Horse may copy, quote, link to or otherwise reproduce posts, or portions of posts, in print or online for advertising or editorial purposes, if attributed to their original authors, and by posting in this forum, you hereby grant to The Chronicle of the Horse a perpetual, non-exclusive license under copyright and other rights, to do so.

8. We reserve the right to enforce and amend the rules.
The moderators may delete, edit, move or close any post or thread at any time, or refrain from doing any of the foregoing, in their discretion, and may suspend or revoke a user’s membership privileges at any time to maintain adherence to the rules and the general spirit of the forum. These rules may be amended at any time to address the current needs of the board.

Please see our full Terms of Service and Privacy Policy for more information.

Thanks for being a part of the COTH forums!

(Revised 1/26/16)
See more
See less

RF Demeter to Hannah Sue Burnett

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #81
    Originally posted by bornfreenowexpensive View Post
    Interesting LadyB because I've been around a lot of top UL riders and my impression is the opposite. The ones that think of horses as disposable are few and far between. Especially among those who are at the top of the sport or who have been around a while.

    but I do agree that it rarely has anything to do with money ...good horsemanship and good horsemen come from all backgrounds...as do bad ones.
    You have more riders at the UL in the US compared to Canada

    Comment

    • Original Poster

      #82
      I think I missed something or misread something...are we saying that JM killed someone in a car accident? or did I miss a paragraph where we were just comparing her to someone who killed someone in a car accident?

      I'm also a little confused about what UL riders think horses are disposable. My impression is also the opposite. I'm trying to picture Philip Dutton or Boyd Martin coming across that way. The way the two of them ran into a barn to rescue horses in a fire, risking their own lives? I don't think that's considering them disposable at all.

      Comment


      • #83
        It's not that they necessarily think that horses are disposable, it's that they're not pets.
        When horses become the way you make your money/define your success, it inevitably changes your relationship with them. There are very few horse pro's out there who are capable of completely removing the competition/financial aspects of any risk/benefit analysis when it comes to making decisions about their horses. Even competitive ammy's make decisions vis a vis their competition horses that are not necessarily in the horses' best interest.
        The key is to avoid crossing the line. Where that line is differs for most people. We'd all agree that ML crossed the line. There are riders whose refusal to approach the line hinders their team chances. Most of the rest are somewhere in the middle.

        Comment


        • #84
          Yes, some UL riders do not act this way, but like Lady B I have also witnessed this. Almost racetrack mentality. Just inject this and they will get around a few more events. Ride the fur off it for two years because I have tonnes of owners and they will just replace it. Doesn't seem like a lot of bonding going on.

          Not that BM and PD were thinking this - I doubt they were and I have nothing against those two whatsoever- but you could easily argue that someone with less scruples that they went into the barn to save the horses because they were not insured and they were their Team horses and not easily replaceable.

          I also think in an emergency situation you are more likely to save your horse. In a scenario where it is deciding whether to retire a 4* horse before they age out or get injured or not...the decision isn't so easy.
          Fillys By Vibank - 2017 Road to RRP
          https://www.youtube.com/user/jealoushe

          Comment


          • #85
            Originally posted by LadyB View Post

            You have more riders at the UL in the US compared to Canada

            Very true. And I do think people learn behavior. So learn from a good horseman....more likely to become good. Learn from someone who treats horses as disposable...more likely to repeat that behavior.


            And and for the record...I've know Boyd to treat some of his horses like pets . And Boyd ran into that burning barn because he legit loved his horse. He really likes/loves most of his horses. Phillip is similar. These horses are their lives and both are good guys who hated to see anything suffer.

            all this is a off track though from the topic of this thread. I don't really know Hannah or Ms Mars but wish them luck. I am curious if they have bred the mare at all as I bet she would make some lovely future eventer! I wouldn't be surprised if they did ET with her.
            Last edited by bornfreenowexpensive; Mar. 16, 2017, 05:32 PM.
            ** Tact is the ability to tell someone to go to hell in such a way that they look forward to the trip. ~Winston Churchill? **

            Comment


            • #86
              Originally posted by DrBeckett View Post
              I think I missed something or misread something...are we saying that JM killed someone in a car accident? or did I miss a paragraph where we were just comparing her to someone who killed someone in a car accident?
              Killed...but largely considered an unfortunate accident.

              https://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...atal-car-crash
              "Courage is not the absence of fear but rather the judgment that something is more important than fear. The brave may not live forever but the cautious do not live at all." ~2001 The Princess Diaries

              Comment


              • #87
                I've been at work or riding since page 3 and I just came back to 2 pages of sh!tshow. C'mon guys.

                This was an interesting thread to follow HSB & Demeter's new partnership. I wish I didn't just read about JM's bank account, her accident or Iams & animal cruelty in Asia in this particular thread. (If those things are important to you I'd appreciate it going somewhere else).

                I'm no fan of ML and I'm thrilled the horse is moved. I appreciate the different views of how this change may or may not have become the new reality for Demeter. Thank you for posts explaining the path to a 4* qualification for the new team, I didn't understand the timing issue before...now, when do we think they'll show again?

                Comment


                • #88
                  Originally posted by WasthatC View Post
                  now, when do we think they'll show again?
                  They're entered at the Carolina International at the end of this month in the CIC2*

                  Comment


                  • #89
                    Originally posted by hopashore1 View Post

                    They're entered at the Carolina International at the end of this month in the CIC2*
                    They are also entered at the April CIC3* at Chatt Hills.

                    Comment


                    • #90
                      At least with anyone having any sense (and not even horse sense but just common sense) I would think upper level horses would not be considered disposable--it takes years to make them and they are not that common.. Now I might believe certain UL riders will blast through young horses to see which ones "have" it as I suspect it takes a lot of not- quite-up-to-it young horses to find the real deal that can stand up to the physical and mental challenges.

                      Comment


                      • #91
                        Originally posted by JP60 View Post
                        Then as I understand it is
                        CCI1* is a maxed Prelim
                        CCI2* is a maxed intermediate
                        CCI3* is a maxed Advanced
                        CCI4* who the fuck knows, but it seems harder.
                        If you can't articulate the difference in a CCI3* and a CCI4* maybe that's a clue about the value of your opinion as to how others ought to prepare for those levels.

                        Comment


                        • #92
                          Originally posted by JP60 View Post

                          We have in the US
                          Prelim
                          Intermediate
                          Advance

                          Yes?

                          Then as I understand it is
                          CCI1* is a maxed Prelim
                          CCI2* is a maxed intermediate
                          CCI3* is a maxed Advanced
                          CCI4* who the fuck knows, but it seems harder.

                          Then we have
                          CIC1* (prelim?)
                          CIC2* (intermediate?)
                          CIC3* (advance?)

                          From what I gather the main difference between CIC and CCI is order of the phases, but please, educate those of us wanting to grasp the differences.
                          Honestly, this is just willfull ignorance. Is it that hard to look in a rule book? I'm sure a little visit to ol google machine could yield some data on the difference between the levels.

                          Or better yet, go to an event that has a prelim division and a CCI1*. Walk each xc course and try to figure out the difference.

                          Comment


                          • #93
                            Originally posted by subk View Post
                            If you can't articulate the difference in a CCI3* and a CCI4* maybe that's a clue about the value of your opinion as to how others ought to prepare for those levels.
                            Oh, thank God someone finally said it :-) !! Back to lurking...
                            Kate

                            Comment


                            • #94
                              Originally posted by DrBeckett View Post
                              Wow. I have to say I didn't see that coming.
                              I am not at all surprised and I've been out of the loop for over two months. JM is a smart owner and made an excellent choice in moving this lovely mare to Hannah Sue. They will take their time in developing a new partnership and I bet the mare will be and look amazing. Yea!!!

                              Comment


                              • #95
                                Originally posted by lucegoose View Post

                                Honestly, this is just willfull ignorance. Is it that hard to look in a rule book? I'm sure a little visit to ol google machine could yield some data on the difference between the levels.

                                Or better yet, go to an event that has a prelim division and a CCI1*. Walk each xc course and try to figure out the difference.
                                Willful ignorance? low value of my opinion? You guys are working to get my goat today.

                                So this little thing gets blown all the way up to a rather poor attempt at insulting me or trying to knock me down a few pegs when at the end of the day, I had been agreeing with DC statements about courses

                                Originally posted by me
                                I said CIC* in relationship to you stating that CIC2* was the same as Intermediate. Yep, I forgot a number, but my response was to accept what you had said about the CIC2*. I forgot to put in a number as I was agreeing with you. Go back, read that and see I was accepting your view.
                                Instead of perhaps using this as a teaching moment, at least three here feel better now in poking fun at the lack of knowledge I seem to have. Hmmm... I both read what I wrote and looked up rules, seems I was generally about right for DC said as well

                                CIC1* is prelim
                                Hmmmmmm..... and I wrote

                                Originally posted by me
                                Then we have
                                CIC1* (prelim?)
                                Now I am so sorry I did not go into excruciating detail as to the specific number of elements, the pace and the length differences as well as that one FEI format has cross country second, the other last. Heaven forbid that instead of listing specific height requirements and requirements for qualifications in my response, I was able to articulate the proper order of advancement anyway.

                                Now you got me on the 4*. Shame on me for wisecracking a comment, though am I wrong to state that 4* is harder than 3* without again having to cite chapter and verse? If it is not then why are we bellyaching about the Olympics dropping cross country down to 3* level.

                                So, I am niether willfully ignorant and I actually do understand and pay attention to what it might take, in qualifications, and in conditioning to ride at those lessons. Perhaps y'all might direct that attitude towards Ms Little since she cannot make it round 4* courses with a well conditioned horse or some showcase without her horse falling down.

                                The only two people I feel I insulted on this thread have been Ms Little, for her public display of bad riding, and Ms Mars, because she allowed for too long a bad rider/horse combination. Those are opinions and you can refute them, defend them...but to take it down to a personal level of looking down at me for having an opinion, calling me hateful; that is part of the problem that exists in this sport today. Your personal opinion of me will only matter if you ever got to know me as a person and I fail to maintain the ideals I hold strong.

                                Other than all that, have a great day and as Bubbles would say, "Be kind to someone"

                                Comment


                                • #96
                                  Originally posted by JP60 View Post
                                  The only two people I feel I insulted on this thread have been Ms Little, for her public display of bad riding, and Ms Mars, because she allowed for too long a bad rider/horse combination. Those are opinions and you can refute them, defend them...but to take it down to a personal level of looking down at me for having an opinion, calling me hateful; that is part of the problem that exists in this sport today. Your personal opinion of me will only matter if you ever got to know me as a person and I fail to maintain the ideals I hold strong.
                                  I really was hoping you would come back and continue the discussion, so thank you for doing so.

                                  I'd like to clarify my position. As much as is really permissible to comment on other people's lives, I think the riding displayed in public by Marilyn and the ownership choices that are made publicly by Ms. Mars (who rides her horses and where) are fair game as a subject of commentary and discussion. You have done so here, and as you know, I often agree with your general perspective and the core values that form their foundation. I have no problem with you expressing an opinion about Ms. Mars' management of her horses, at least the parts the public is aware of.

                                  What I did, and do, object to is the casual implication that she doesn't care about ending a life simply because she is wealthy. I did call that thought hateful, but I would like to emphasize that I was commenting on the thought, not on you as a person. I was taken aback when I read it, and so wasn't entirely calm when I was responding, but my intention is never to launch a personal attack. My comments were directed at a thought you expressed, not you as a person.

                                  Comment


                                  • #97
                                    Originally posted by subk View Post
                                    If you can't articulate the difference in a CCI3* and a CCI4* maybe that's a clue about the value of your opinion as to how others ought to prepare for those levels.
                                    So much of the difference between a CCI/CCI and a HT has been lost with the death of the long format. In the old days, it was not about "max", it was having phases A B C and D. That being said, I remember walking the course at Rolex, in the long format days, after I had just done a CCI** and asking how one knew their horse could do a 4* as there is no complementary level. 3* is advanced, but so is 4*. The response from my trainer, whose name you would know, was that when your horse is jumping around a 3* with enthusiasm (read Fair Hill at that time) then you could consider moving up. But of course, you didn't know, until you crossed the finish flags. The other difference, I was told, is there is no let up. Fence by fence, things looked doable to me, but put together, with the added consideration of time. NO LET UP! Watch those riders, they are kicking THE ENTIRE TIME and every single jump is a difficult question. Your brain cannot go on vacation for one stride at the 4* level

                                    Comment


                                    • #98
                                      The entire concept of a course being "max" is riddled with issues. It makes the assumption that the difficulty of a course or fence is decided entirely on height of the obstacle(s), which is so, so wrong. When I see someone rant about how a fence on a BN course was "maxed out", forgive me if I roll my eyes. Every fence, save the first and perhaps the last, should be "maxed out" at that level.

                                      There was a table on a prelim course recently that measured over 4' when you accounted for the takeoff point. Everyone had a lovely, lovely jump over it. Just like how you can build a 2'6" fence that is un-jumpable.

                                      JP60, my issue with your post on the differences of the levels is that you don't seem to appreciate the nuances of progression in the training and expectations for horse and rider through both the national levels and the FEI. Has the line between FEI and national competitions gotten blurry in the last decade? Sure. But it's not that hard to see the difference.

                                      I really don't care about ML, JM or HSB and whether or not they are good people. I will be curious to see how the horse goes with a different rider (and what bit she uses), but that's as far as my interest goes.

                                      Comment


                                      • #99
                                        Originally posted by vineyridge View Post
                                        One can only hope that ML has decided that falling so often at speed when horses can do and fall on their riders isn't a good thing and moves back to a sport where the jump falls but rarely the rider. Maybe her last injury was the tipping point.
                                        Oh riders fall in the jumper ring.... Horses just don't fall as often as in cross country. Seems like moving to the jumper ring is a good move for ML as she's been fairly successful there so far.

                                        "Be kind whenever possible. It is always possible."
                                        -Mother Teresa

                                        Comment


                                        • In regard to the discussion of Iams brand as it relates to the Mars family -

                                          1. Jacqueline Mars is not the sole owner of Mars, Inc.
                                          2. Mars, Inc. does not own Iams in all countries in which Iams operates. It is owned by Spectrum Brands in Europe.

                                          I do not really believe that someone who has a 1/3 stake and voting rights on the board is solely responsible for the business decision of where to source meat products. I am quite sure her day to day involvement in any of the brands held by Mars, Inc is approximately zero.

                                          It's fine if you want to take a stand against the brand for the practices but I'm not sure it makes sense to relate it to one person's personal feelings when it's in the context of a multinational corporation being run by many other people.
                                          Originally posted by PeanutButterPony
                                          you can shackle your pony to a lawn chair at the show...so long as its in a conservative color.

                                          Comment

                                          Working...
                                          X