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The oliver townend fence, fence 20

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  • The oliver townend fence, fence 20

    Any thoughts on this fence? I believe there were 3 rider falls there, did it have a frangible pin, and was it in consideration for a styrofoam fence?

    I thought we could seperate this fence discussion from the other thread.
    http://weanieeventer.blogspot.com/

  • #2
    Yes, it had a frangible pin. None of the horses hit it in the right (wrong?) way to break the pin. I believe that there has to be direct, downwards pressure to sheer it.

    I do think there was something going on there- it's one heck of a coincidence for three horses to have such similar falls if there wasn't.
    Horse Show Names Free name website with over 6200 names. Want to add? PM me!

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    • #3
      Video.

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      • #4
        Originally posted by kookicat View Post
        Yes, it had a frangible pin. None of the horses hit it in the right (wrong?) way to break the pin. I believe that there has to be direct, downwards pressure to sheer it.

        I do think there was something going on there- it's one heck of a coincidence for three horses to have such similar falls if there wasn't.
        Bottom line: if there is enough force to flip a horse, the pin should break.

        There is something that needs to be investigated here.

        That video made me *shudder*
        -Jessica

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        • #5
          I agree. I'm sure one of the more knowledgeable folks can give a better explanation that I did though!

          I'm not sure what the foam logs do. Can someone explain that to me?
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          • #6
            Wow. That was the exact same fall all three times - caught the left front. And an almost fall a fourth time in the same fashion. That doesn't seem like a coincidence to me.

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            • #7
              Originally posted by kookicat View Post
              I agree. I'm sure one of the more knowledgeable folks can give a better explanation that I did though!

              I'm not sure what the foam logs do. Can someone explain that to me?
              There's a video of one in action in this thread: http://www.chronofhorse.com/forum/sh...owns+styro+log

              And discussion of it here:
              http://www.chronofhorse.com/forum/sh...owns+styro+log

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              • #8
                Someone on the other thread pointed out that the horses didn't see the drop till they'd left the ground at the log and so were thinking of putting the gear down to land with that little bit of woah for a drop. I wonder if it would have made a difference to have a one stride instead of a bounce before the first step. The downside to that being that I think that OT was saved by the horse continuing down the steps instead of landing with a final thunk on him.

                Also wonder if the little give of styrofoam would've allowed them that extra time to get the leg up and over and scramble instead of flip. A lot of what ifs but with 3 almost identical rotational falls, something wasn't right. I hope all the horses are well.

                ETA: just watched the foam log video, didn't realize they snapped but so glad to see them keeping horses and riders safe.
                Please don't try to be a voice of reason. It's way more fun to spin things out of control. #BecauseCOTH - showhorsegallery

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by a_quick_one View Post
                  There's a video of one in action in this thread: http://www.chronofhorse.com/forum/sh...owns+styro+log

                  And discussion of it here:
                  http://www.chronofhorse.com/forum/sh...owns+styro+log
                  Thanks!

                  Had a quick view of the first vid. That's pretty clever!

                  Okay, so horse hangs a knee on the first fence, the log breaks... then what? I figure a clever horse would manage to get the leg back on the flat, but with a double drop coming up, I wonder if the log would make things worse. I could see horse and rider falling down both steps if the horse couldn't sort his feet out in time.

                  What does everyone else think?
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                  • #10
                    That video definitely isn't much fun to watch.

                    BUT, it looked to me like the two prior horses (prior to OT, that is) probably wouldn't have flipped if it weren't for the downbank. They certainly would have fallen one way or the other, but the rotational part was once they hit the bank. So, in fact, the pins did not NEED to release to prevent those rotational falls at THAT jump - and I'm pretty sure we can't expect those pins to release to prevent a fall at a subsequent jump.

                    And, honestly, looking to frangible pins as a way to prevent every accident is as silly as thinking you'll never get a brain injury if you wear a helmet. They lessen the severity of SOME accidents, but are not and cannot be designed to be effective in EVERY accident. That's why good course design, talented horses, smart riding, and, quite frankly, luck are all still going to play a part.
                    Proud member of the EDRF

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by AppJumpr08 View Post
                      Bottom line: if there is enough force to flip a horse, the pin should break.

                      There is something that needs to be investigated here.

                      That video made me *shudder*
                      None of the horses flipped over the fence. They flipped when they fell. If you look at a true rotational fall, the horse's head is closest to the ground as they flip over the jump.

                      In looking at all three falls, the horse hangs a leg, clears the jump, but cannot get that hung leg out fast enough to prevent a fall. The horse falls on a shoulder first. The only true rotational part is the last horse (gray - not Townsend) as he goes over the bank.

                      You can see the last horse they show go over the jump, he hangs a leg as well, but not as bad and is able to get his feet under himself and recover. The bay horse that falls looks like he would have been able to recover had that bank down not been there.

                      The jump itself does not cause the horse to flip - the process of losing his balance does. The horses also do not flip in the 'rotational fall' sense, they all land awkward and fall over.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Well, I'm no pro, I've never seen a frangible fence up close nor am I a TD but it seems to me, and was pointed out by a friend, that the vertical posts might be on the wrong side of the horizontal log? I'm sure you'll correct me if I'm wrong...I know Reed says the force has to come down from on top of the rail but with the posts on the far side, even a downward force wouldn't be able to make the thing fold. What do you guys think? My friend and I find it hard to believe the jump is supposed to be built with the posts on the far side but assume it must be-otherwise, wouldn't SOME savvy TD, rider, CD or JCW() have noticed the posts were on the wrong side? Same at the coffin. Please enlighten us.
                        Proud and achy member of the Eventing Grannies clique.

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                        • #13
                          After watching the videos of this fence and seeing the styrofoam logs in action, I think there would have been a different outcome for all of the horse/rider combinations that had rotational falls at that fence.
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                          Home of 2002 JC Registered stallion Artrageous

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Ajierene View Post
                            None of the horses flipped over the fence. They flipped when they fell. If you look at a true rotational fall, the horse's head is closest to the ground as they flip over the jump.

                            In looking at all three falls, the horse hangs a leg, clears the jump, but cannot get that hung leg out fast enough to prevent a fall. The horse falls on a shoulder first. The only true rotational part is the last horse (gray - not Townsend) as he goes over the bank.

                            You can see the last horse they show go over the jump, he hangs a leg as well, but not as bad and is able to get his feet under himself and recover. The bay horse that falls looks like he would have been able to recover had that bank down not been there.

                            The jump itself does not cause the horse to flip - the process of losing his balance does. The horses also do not flip in the 'rotational fall' sense, they all land awkward and fall over.
                            I'll respectfully disagree. The point of a frangible pin is to prevent falls like this. To my mind, if frangible pins aren't breaking, they should be installed differently.
                            -Jessica

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                            • #15
                              Whether the log was breakable or pins were involved, my questions was what was the ground jury thinking during this whole process. Did they consider removing the vertical after the first fall???? At any other event one rotational fall usually causes removal of the fence for the rest of the competitors. Did they not even consider it after the second rotational???? I'm well aware that these were not classic rotational, but they were pretty close, seen the video of all three. A little to late to remove when Ollie fell and Phillip retired on course before that jump.

                              Just wondering why the vertical remained on course for a 3rd fall to happen.

                              Comment


                              • #16
                                Just an interesting comparison of the three falls at this question. Sorry for the pq shots, they are taken from the video posted above.


                                http://i947.photobucket.com/albums/a...5at72623PM.png
                                http://i947.photobucket.com/albums/a...5at72618PM.png
                                “It's about the horse and that's it.” - GM

                                !! is the new .

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                                • #17
                                  If the pins break, what happens to the log? Does it fall forward with the momentum of the collision or just down (i.e. is there a way to keep the log from rolling over stumbling/falling horse and rider if the pins break)? Sorry that this is such an elementary question.
                                  Proud member of the Colbert Dressage Nation

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                                  • #18
                                    The very last photo, bottom right, in this series shows what I'm talking about. Those posts appear to be keeping the rail from collapsing. Anybody have the answer here? Shouldn't those posts be on the approach side of the rail?
                                    Proud and achy member of the Eventing Grannies clique.

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                                    • #19
                                      Originally posted by RiverBendPol View Post
                                      The very last photo, bottom right, in this series shows what I'm talking about. Those posts appear to be keeping the rail from collapsing. Anybody have the answer here? Shouldn't those posts be on the approach side of the rail?
                                      The log rests ON the pins - they give way when there is a certain amount of pressure on the TOP of the rail. Regardless of which side of the posts the rail is on, the pins would not release with forward pressure on the rail.

                                      (If you think about it, any forward-type release would result in a rail swinging, at least to a certain extent, rather than just dropping, and that could make an accident worse - as the rail swings back into the horse - rather than better.)
                                      Proud member of the EDRF

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                                      • #20
                                        J-Lu .. the log is tied to the posts with rope. If the pins break, the log will drop, but will not be totally free.

                                        RiverBend .. I had the same question about one of the jumps at the coffin (I didn't notice the one at the hollow). I would expect that the force on the log would not be straight down, but more forward and down, and with the posts bracing against the forward force, it didn't look like there would be enough downward motion to break the pins.

                                        I noticed that one of the other jumps at the coffin was set up the other way, which looked correct to me.

                                        On the other hand, it's really hard for me to believe that the course designers and builders would screw up a detail like that. There must be something about the function of the pins that I'm not understanding, because I really don't think those guys could have made a mistake that was so obvious that casual spectators noticed it right away.

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