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speaking of trainer dependency...

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  • speaking of trainer dependency...

    ...I was helping to steward show jumping today at a combined test. We had a training level adult who refused to take a single warm up jump until her trainer arrived. Trainer arrived at the warmup right at the rider's assigned ride time; once they warmed up, rider entered the ring several minutes after their assigned start time. OK, we're a schooling show, we make allowances...but really....

    I watched the warmup, waiting to see if this was some kind of special-needs horse (I've owned a couple of those). Nope. Just a straightforward g'boy, nothing magikal needed from the trainer in warmup, from what I could tell.

    Another adult rider, this time in the Novice division. Also refused to take a warmup jump without her trainer present. We let her keep sliding down the order until she was last to go in the Novice division, at which point trainer had still not shown up, and rider sucked it up and managed a few warmup jumps on her own & get herself in the ring.

    Honestly - adults who are riding straightforward horses at Training and Novice should be perfectly capable of warming up their own horses, no? It gives me a bad feeling....like eventing is creeping closer to the h/j model of operation. Don't get me wrong - I love working with instructors and taking lessons, but refusing to take a warmup jump without them?

    Both riders, incidentally, rode with the same trainer.

  • #2
    Originally posted by Lisa Cook View Post

    Both riders, incidentally, rode with the same trainer.
    yeah, there's a shocker.

    I have a hard time believing the training rider, at least, has not done a recognized event, but I'd like to hope that they will be cured of this habit once they hit a venue that runs 125 horses through in a day --- we are nice, and we are accommodating, but NO ONE else is going to be made to wait around for this sort of thing....
    The big man -- my lost prince

    The little brother, now my main man

    Comment


    • #3
      Maybe these people were moving up a level and that's why they were waiting for the trainer? A lot of people will do a level higher at a CT. Just a thought. I do agree though that they should be capable of at leasting doing the x-rail on their own!

      Comment


      • #4
        Wow! I thought this happened only at the hunter shows!!
        My first ht last spring on Tucker, my trainer was preoccupied with a true novice and while this was my first ht on my greenie, I had no problem being sent out to warm up and go xc all on my lonesome!
        Get over yourselves! Really, if you can't school without your trainer, stay home!
        Lori T
        www.calypsofarmeventers.blogspot.com
        www.facebook.com/LoriTankelPhotography
        www.facebook.com/LTEquine for product updates on the lines I rep

        Comment


        • #5
          2 years ago, when I leased the 3* horse to run preliminary on, it was in the lease contract that I was supposed to wait for the trainer to be present before jumping him, but that was an overprotective owner thing, neither I nor the trainer.
          OTTBs rule, but spots are good too!

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Lori T View Post
            Get over yourselves! Really, if you can't school without your trainer, stay home!
            The statement "Get over yourselves" goes both ways.

            While I certainly don't think shows are obligated to change a rider's time to accomodate coaching, I honestly don't understand why so many posters think it is cool to be "anti-coach". Keep your eyes on your own paper and RIDE!

            If you want to ride without a coach -- great! Double gold stars for you. If you would rather have a coach -- great!

            I thought eventers were supposed to be known for a "live and let live" attitude.

            Comment


            • #7
              I was going to weigh in on the other thread, but...now I will!

              As WIWR said, yes--it depends! However, if you competing at an HT at that level, one would assume that you have reached a certain "level of basic competence" (and this is from a trainer's perspective, since I teach only the lower levels, T and below; my specialty being introducing them to the sport safely and correctly.) IMO, the student should have talked to the trainer beforehand, and they should have talked about exactly what the student/horse combo need to do in warmup to give the pair the best possible preparation for the phase in question. I usually "tweak" my students in warmup, but if I can't be there, I feel confident that they have received enough training and preparation (in lessons, and during schoolings) to be able to function WITHOUT me there, holding their hand--and walking them through every single step of the warmup process (*especially* if we have worked together for awhile, in which case they should "have my voice in their head), and yeah--puleeze! this is NOT the hunters, where the trainers coach from the sidelines and handhold and micromanage and (UGH!) school the horse themselves before the class to "tune it up" for the student...

              I always tell my students that my job as a trainer/coach is to make myself "progressively more and more superfluous", and that this should be the goal of both all students AND all trainers! Which is not to say that some riders (and horses) don't need and benefit from some last-minute input, but this largely depends on the individual. I have some really green riders (and timid riders) and quirky/green horses among my students. Also, some students (and horses!) who are moving up to a higher level, and in this case, they are generally not completely comfortable with just going out and "doing it." (Think teenagers and nervous adult amateurs who freeze up under pressure )These particular folks usually benefit from some input before they go into the ring, and they also gain confidence from my presence.

              And trainers with a "God complex", who want to hold the rings up for the sake of their (unprepared) student(s)?? God help me, since this SO smacks of (ahem, cough) another discipline. Go ahead and flame me! And yeah, I AM there for my students when and if they need me, but not in the way the OP describes (though I do warm them up when they need me to, as mentioned.)

              When I was a kid, riding and competing (back when dinosaurs trod the earth ), this kind of thing was completely unheard of. Ride by the seat of your pants, and survive to tell the tale!

              Students are LUCKY *if* their trainer can be there to help them warm up (and give them some last-minute feedback), BUT they should always work towards learning to do without, and discuss this specific thing with the trainer at home, in lessons. (Or over the phone, or via e-mail!) I do this always, with ALL my students--they need to be able to be independent when and if necessary--after all, in eventing, they are "out there by themselves with their horse", bottom line. They need to be able to deal with it, and rely (and call on) on their training and preparation.
              "Hope is a good thing, maybe the best of things, and no good thing ever dies."

              "It's supposed to be hard...the hard is what makes it great!" (Jimmy Dugan, "A League of Their Own")

              Comment


              • #8
                It doesn't make sense, because on cross country, you won't have your trainer out there holding your hand! Maybe that's the reason they're at the combined test?

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by SevenDogs View Post
                  The statement "Get over yourselves" goes both ways.

                  While I certainly don't think shows are obligated to change a rider's time to accomodate coaching, I honestly don't understand why so many posters think it is cool to be "anti-coach". Keep your eyes on your own paper and RIDE!
                  The OP was one of the hardworking volunteers we are trying not to take for granted. Telling one that they should "get over themselves" for what had to be a frustrating outside the rules imposed juggling act, seems to me to be akin to biting the hand that feeds us. As in, let's try to make the volunteer's job as *easy* as possible, not as complicated as possible, then telling them to "get over it" when they vent after what was surely an exhausting day.

                  And I agree - while it's nice if your trainer, or knowlegeable ground person, can be there for your warm-ups, for a Novice/Training level eventer it should be totally unnecessary - I still cling to the vision of eventers being rather experienced riders who school beyond the heights they gallop XC over, so shouldn't be coach dependent when they get to a horse trial, especially not for stadium!

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Dr. Doolittle View Post
                    As WIWR said, yes--it depends! However, if you competing at an HT at that level, one would assume that you have reached a certain "level of basic competence"
                    Well said, we were posting at the same time, if I'd have seen your post I wouldn't have felt I needed to post.

                    Get out there and just jump it, fellow eventers!

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by SevenDogs View Post
                      While I certainly don't think shows are obligated to change a rider's time to accommodate coaching, I honestly don't understand why so many posters think it is cool to be "anti-coach". Keep your eyes on your own paper and RIDE!
                      While I can understand this sentiment, the OP is NOT another rider. Instead she is a volunteer who was working the ring who's job got harder because she was asked accommodate someone wanting an exception to the rules. When it is one or two people it may not be a big deal when it is a half a warm-up ring it is chaos for volunteers and riders alike.

                      At a schooling show I don't object so much as long as it isn't a big deal to management. I find when I go to schooling shows I'm "schooling" more things than what happens while being judged. Sometimes learning how/improving your warm-up can be part of the program you're trying to school.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Dr. Doolittle View Post

                        When I was a kid, riding and competing (back when dinosaurs trod the earth ), this kind of thing was completely unheard of. Ride by the seat of your pants, and survive to tell the tale!
                        LMAO!!! That's how I grew up as well. I was riding with a trainer for a while (as an adult) who INSISTED she needed to warm me up at shows...and change me for her time, even though I really didn't feel like I needed or wanted her there. I'm now riding with another trainer, and I do hear her voice in my head in warmup, and I try to listen!
                        I have a very good friend who is on the Hunter circuit who has offered to come and warm me up and warm my horse up for me....I don't think she "gets" it....I like doing it myself!!!

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by TBrescue View Post
                          LMAO!!! That's how I grew up as well. I was riding with a trainer for a while (as an adult) who INSISTED she needed to warm me up at shows...and change me for her time, even though I really didn't feel like I needed or wanted her there. I'm now riding with another trainer, and I do hear her voice in my head in warmup, and I try to listen!
                          I have a very good friend who is on the Hunter circuit who has offered to come and warm me up and warm my horse up for me....I don't think she "gets" it....I like doing it myself!!!
                          "Hope is a good thing, maybe the best of things, and no good thing ever dies."

                          "It's supposed to be hard...the hard is what makes it great!" (Jimmy Dugan, "A League of Their Own")

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by SevenDogs View Post
                            I honestly don't understand why so many posters think it is cool to be "anti-coach".
                            I dont really get this either. I mean, there is a lot of grey area between being hunter dependent and being a crazy uneducated yahoo.....but in general more people could benefit from more coaching. Maybe there would even be less bitting threads!

                            I would always rather have my coach there than not, especially with my younger horse who can be tricky, and I can get tense on. I do think that refusing to warm up without the coach is a bit much, but I never feel quite as prepared when I warm up alone as when I have my coach there telling me I am ready.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              I've done both, and I'll be honest, I love having a coach ringside.

                              That would be in both jumping classes and dressage. Do I have to have it? no. And I won't halt a show for it, but I also have noticed a distinct improvement in my riding at shows with regular input from a coach. Someone who gives me feedback and corrections, and helps me devise a plan.

                              I did not grow up with that, so I'm learning it all as an adult. And, being able to ride & train well is not the same as being able to show well. Coaching is invaluable in most sports where the participants are serious about improving their performance.

                              Comment


                              • #16
                                Okay, so i will preface this by saying i do not think it is okay to wait for a trainer to the extent mentioned by the OP but i find myself getting quite annoyed by the people saying that a N/T rider who brings a coach to warmup basically doesn't have any business showing.... what a bunch of boloney... as an amateur rider i think that some of the posters are losing sight of why we love this sport. because it is FUN.
                                Personally i tend to have issues with getting in my own head and getting tense..this by no means indicates that i don't have the tools/ability to deal with issues when they arrise, it can just be reassuring to have a coach who knows you and the horse. especially when dealing with a greenie or a new horse... i do go to schooling shows w/o a coach and hope to be able to do bigger ones as well (mainly to save money haha)

                                But, to those opposed could you please let me know of other sports where a coach is not availible to help their athletes warm up and prepare to compete...
                                C'mon people... just let us enjoy our coaches and leave us be!!! thanks

                                Comment


                                • #17
                                  Originally posted by sarah88 View Post
                                  Okay, so i will preface this by saying i do not think it is okay to wait for a trainer to the extent mentioned by the OP but i find myself getting quite annoyed by the people saying that a N/T rider who brings a coach to warmup basically doesn't have any business showing.... what a bunch of boloney... as an amateur rider i think that some of the posters are losing sight of why we love this sport. because it is FUN.
                                  Personally i tend to have issues with getting in my own head and getting tense..this by no means indicates that i don't have the tools/ability to deal with issues when they arrise, it can just be reassuring to have a coach who knows you and the horse. especially when dealing with a greenie or a new horse... i do go to schooling shows w/o a coach and hope to be able to do bigger ones as well (mainly to save money haha)

                                  But, to those opposed could you please let me know of other sports where a coach is not availible to help their athletes warm up and prepare to compete...
                                  C'mon people... just let us enjoy our coaches and leave us be!!! thanks
                                  What sarah said.

                                  I completely agree, it's situational, but *still*, I am of the opinion that eventing should NOT become the hunters. These are just very different disciplines. (And as mentoined, my students are A) kids and teenagers, B) adult ammies with nerves, C) riders coming from other disciplines, and/or who are new to eventing, and D) complicated, green, or difficult horses--who are new to eventing.)

                                  I think it is the *nature* of the coaching that is being discussed, here...Respect for the rules of the discipline, for the volunteers, and for the other competitors--as well as for the "spirit" of the sport--is what we should be encouraging.
                                  "Hope is a good thing, maybe the best of things, and no good thing ever dies."

                                  "It's supposed to be hard...the hard is what makes it great!" (Jimmy Dugan, "A League of Their Own")

                                  Comment


                                  • #18
                                    I stood on the steep ramp of my first alpine mountain launch. I knew what to do, I had run off the gentle grassy slopes of the South Downs, just outside of Brighton, half a dozen times before. I picked up my A-frame and waited for the wind in my face .... and waited .... and then ran - arms out, flailing wildly, panicked ... string and fabric above me flapping, not catching the wind, not pulling, not lifting .... The short, steep, high-altitude wooden ramp had 6 feet of run left before plunging to a 2000 ft cliff, and my wing was stalling, not flying.... a dozen tourists, wives and mothers fell completely silent as I dropped off the ramp to sure and certain death and crashed to the rocks below ...

                                    Except that, 6ft before the end, my coach and trainer in England, who was not there, stood on my shoulder and yelled 'Pull IN' and I pulled IN, and ploughed on, and ran that sucker off the ramp, into the wind, and up, up, up to the treeline and soared the French Alps for an hour before landing gently in that tiny pocket of sloping field you call a landing field before the swamps start.

                                    Once you're out there you're alone. But you take your good coaches with you. If you've listened well, they will never leave you.

                                    Nick Larkin said to me today "There are no stops at this level". Right there, on my shoulder, I carried Nick Larkin. You can't really beat that. Even if "Nick Larkin" is some guy you didn't know who he was, teaching a half-hour clinic 3 years ago at Pony Club camp when you were 42.

                                    Last week, Rob Pierce said to me, 'Follow the Yellow Brick Road, all the way to that X-rail' ... but he was really there -in real life, giving the right advice, right when I needed it.

                                    Lessons are for learning, shows are for showing off what you learnt.

                                    I think the key to warm-up is two-fold:

                                    1) Keep the coaches you rely on right on your shoulder, whether they're really there or not.

                                    2) If you've gone beyond BN in eventing, and you freeze up, and there isn't an instant smiling friend or stranger, right there at your side, more than willing to help you out, with exactly what you need, when you need it .... then you have totally missed out on 90% of what's great about being an eventer amongst other eventer people.

                                    Comment

                                    • Original Poster

                                      #19
                                      It was actually supposed to be my 13 year old son who was stadium steward, but he had never done it before, so I stayed with him for the first hour or so to help him out.

                                      The kid didn't know how to handle the whole I-must-wait-for-my-trainer riders, so I'm glad I could walk him through it. The training rider, we held the ring for. The novice rider, as mentioned, we just kept moving her down the list until she hit the end of the division and I told her she had to get going. We did run 85 show jumping rounds today.

                                      There were other interesting moments....in the first hour I was there, he had to send 3 riders back for their armbands. One rider pointedly ignored him when he said she couldn't jump without one, so I had to walk up to her and say that we'd move her to the end of the division if she needed the time to go fetch it, but seriously....no jumping without the armband.

                                      I don't mean to complain....generally the people are great. We get tons of kids and adorable ponies, and for the most part, everyone gets around and has a fun day. Our EMT had a very boring day, which is always awesome.

                                      Comment


                                      • #20
                                        My trainer would love to have those students!! Those of you that have read my other thread know about my "situation", so I'm probably a bit biased because of it.

                                        It's fine if you prefer a coach, as long as it's not at the expense of other competitors or volunteers. Actually, I wouldn't mind if recognized shows had a rule that forbid coaching at shows (those that aren't ready to go sans coach can continue their road to independence at schooling shows). This way, trainers are forced to teach independence and riders are forced to learn independence. Also, would level the playing field a bit more between the competitors. Just because your coach yells louder than others does not mean you should get more space in warmup or get more jump time or any other preferential treatment.

                                        I wonder sometimes if all this coaching before each phase undermines the ability for riders to think for themselves while on course. I never liked being coached at shows because I need to be in the mindset of making decisions for myself and horse. I would much rather have an anlysis of my ride after the show: what can be improved and how, etc (and would gladly pay for such services). Interestingly, my trainer's coaching fees do not include such services.

                                        I agree with whoever said that if you're not ready to warmup you and your horse on your own, you're not ready for a recognized show. I think often times, over-enthusiastic riders in a hurry to show before they're comfortable/competent get a false sense of security by having their coach at shows to "help".

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