• Welcome to the Chronicle Forums.
    Please complete your profile. The forums and the rest of www.chronofhorse.com has single sign-in, so your log in information for one will automatically work for the other. Disclaimer: The opinions expressed here are the views of the individual and do not necessarily reflect the views and opinions of The Chronicle of the Horse.

Announcement

Collapse

Forum rules and no-advertising policy

As a participant on this forum, it is your responsibility to know and follow our rules. Please read this message in its entirety.

Board Rules

1. You’re responsible for what you say.
As outlined in Section 230 of the Communications Decency Act, The Chronicle of the Horse and its affiliates, as well Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd., the developers of vBulletin, are not legally responsible for statements made in the forums.

This is a public forum viewed by a wide spectrum of people, so please be mindful of what you say and who might be reading it—details of personal disputes are likely better handled privately. While posters are legally responsible for their statements, the moderators may in their discretion remove or edit posts that violate these rules. Users have the ability to modify or delete their own messages after posting, but administrators generally will not delete posts, threads or accounts upon request.

Outright inflammatory, vulgar, harassing, malicious or otherwise inappropriate statements and criminal charges unsubstantiated by a reputable news source or legal documentation will not be tolerated and will be dealt with at the discretion of the moderators.

2. Conversations in horse-related forums should be horse-related.
The forums are a wonderful source of information and support for members of the horse community. While it’s understandably tempting to share information or search for input on other topics upon which members might have a similar level of knowledge, members must maintain the focus on horses.

3. Keep conversations productive, on topic and civil.
Discussion and disagreement are inevitable and encouraged; personal insults, diatribes and sniping comments are unproductive and unacceptable. Whether a subject is light-hearted or serious, keep posts focused on the current topic and of general interest to other participants of that thread. Utilize the private message feature or personal email where appropriate to address side topics or personal issues not related to the topic at large.

4. No advertising in the discussion forums.
Posts in the discussion forums directly or indirectly advertising horses, jobs, items or services for sale or wanted will be removed at the discretion of the moderators. Use of the private messaging feature or email addresses obtained through users’ profiles for unsolicited advertising is not permitted.

Company representatives may participate in discussions and answer questions about their products or services, or suggest their products on recent threads if they fulfill the criteria of a query. False "testimonials" provided by company affiliates posing as general consumers are not appropriate, and self-promotion of sales, ad campaigns, etc. through the discussion forums is not allowed.

Paid advertising is available on our classifieds site and through the purchase of banner ads. The tightly monitored Giveaways forum permits free listings of genuinely free horses and items available or wanted (on a limited basis). Items offered for trade are not allowed.

Advertising Policy Specifics
When in doubt of whether something you want to post constitutes advertising, please contact a moderator privately in advance for further clarification. Refer to the following points for general guidelines:

Horses – Only general discussion about the buying, leasing, selling and pricing of horses is permitted. If the post contains, or links to, the type of specific information typically found in a sales or wanted ad, and it’s related to a horse for sale, regardless of who’s selling it, it doesn’t belong in the discussion forums.

Stallions – Board members may ask for suggestions on breeding stallion recommendations. Stallion owners may reply to such queries by suggesting their own stallions, only if their horse fits the specific criteria of the original poster. Excessive promotion of a stallion by its owner or related parties is not permitted and will be addressed at the discretion of the moderators.

Services – Members may use the forums to ask for general recommendations of trainers, barns, shippers, farriers, etc., and other members may answer those requests by suggesting themselves or their company, if their services fulfill the specific criteria of the original post. Members may not solicit other members for business if it is not in response to a direct, genuine query.

Products – While members may ask for general opinions and suggestions on equipment, trailers, trucks, etc., they may not list the specific attributes for which they are in the market, as such posts serve as wanted ads.

Event Announcements – Members may post one notification of an upcoming event that may be of interest to fellow members, if the original poster does not benefit financially from the event. Such threads may not be “bumped” excessively. Premium members may post their own notices in the Event Announcements forum.

Charities/Rescues – Announcements for charitable or fundraising events can only be made for 501(c)(3) tax-exempt organizations. Special exceptions may be made, at the moderators’ discretion and direction, for board-related events or fundraising activities in extraordinary circumstances.

Occasional posts regarding horses available for adoption through IRS-registered horse rescue or placement programs are permitted in the appropriate forums, but these threads may be limited at the discretion of the moderators. Individuals may not advertise or make announcements for horses in need of rescue, placement or adoption unless the horse is available through a recognized rescue or placement agency or government-run entity or the thread fits the criteria for and is located in the Giveaways forum.

5. Do not post copyrighted photographs unless you have purchased that photo and have permission to do so.

6. Respect other members.
As members are often passionate about their beliefs and intentions can easily be misinterpreted in this type of environment, try to explore or resolve the inevitable disagreements that arise in the course of threads calmly and rationally.

If you see a post that you feel violates the rules of the board, please click the “alert” button (exclamation point inside of a triangle) in the bottom left corner of the post, which will alert ONLY the moderators to the post in question. They will then take whatever action, or no action, as deemed appropriate for the situation at their discretion. Do not air grievances regarding other posters or the moderators in the discussion forums.

Please be advised that adding another user to your “Ignore” list via your User Control Panel can be a useful tactic, which blocks posts and private messages by members whose commentary you’d rather avoid reading.

7. We have the right to reproduce statements made in the forums.
The Chronicle of the Horse may copy, quote, link to or otherwise reproduce posts, or portions of posts, in print or online for advertising or editorial purposes, if attributed to their original authors, and by posting in this forum, you hereby grant to The Chronicle of the Horse a perpetual, non-exclusive license under copyright and other rights, to do so.

8. We reserve the right to enforce and amend the rules.
The moderators may delete, edit, move or close any post or thread at any time, or refrain from doing any of the foregoing, in their discretion, and may suspend or revoke a user’s membership privileges at any time to maintain adherence to the rules and the general spirit of the forum. These rules may be amended at any time to address the current needs of the board.

Please see our full Terms of Service and Privacy Policy for more information.

Thanks for being a part of the COTH forums!

(Revised 1/26/16)
See more
See less

Pin firing means you can't event him?

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Pin firing means you can't event him?

    I know I've been out of eventing for a good while, but I recently overheard something that disturbed me. A local trainer, well-respected I suppose,was chatting with someone and stated they'd NEVER use a pin-fired horse for jumping or eventing. Back in the day pin firing was not viewed as a terrible liability and I've evented/ shown many pin-fired horses in my time. We're not talking CCI here but prelim and down. Is there something new I need to know? Enlightenment appreciated.
    " It's about the horse, and that's it."
    George Morris

  • #2
    I also know of a local ottb placement place that does not let horses with bowed tendons go to jumping homes, suggests them for flatwork only.
    http://weanieeventer.blogspot.com/

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by Running Fox Farm View Post
      I know I've been out of eventing for a good while, but I recently overheard something that disturbed me. A local trainer, well-respected I suppose,was chatting with someone and stated they'd NEVER use a pin-fired horse for jumping or eventing. Back in the day pin firing was not viewed as a terrible liability and I've evented/ shown many pin-fired horses in my time. We're not talking CCI here but prelim and down. Is there something new I need to know? Enlightenment appreciated.

      would be interested to learn that too...as I've known a couple that went Advanced successfully that had been pin fired.
      ** Tact is the ability to tell someone to go to hell in such a way that they look forward to the trip. ~Winston Churchill? **

      Comment


      • #4
        I've had several... one many years ago that did several long formats up to *** level. Best legs ever.
        And most recently one that ran CCI* level - long format, no problem (with legs anyway, colic another issue). He was fired on all four legs -- assumed he had a really old school trainer at the track. He was only a 2000 model.

        Comment


        • #5
          I've never heard of pinfiring having any lasting effect other than cosmetic.

          It is used to "treat" bucked shins (and maybe popped splints) but those tend to heal up and never present a problem again. I don't even think you can see old bucked shins on x-ray - since it's the horsey equivalent of shin splints. Everything I've heard says that heals up stronger than it was before, too.

          But I'm not exactly an expert.

          (I'm just having trouble from an anatomy/physiology standpoint coming up with any reason that pinfiring could have any effect on a horse's jumping career - other than having an effect on resale value for a hunter)

          (also, if it's the bucked shins that were an issue - pinfiring is falling out of favor these days a bit - a perfectly clean legged looking horse may have had the same injuries as a pinfired one and you'd never know it)
          "smile a lot can let us ride happy,it is good thing"

          My CANTER blog.

          Comment

          • Original Poster

            #6
            Enjoytheride - what's your opinion on this? A bow is a " variable' sort of a thing. There are some bows that horse's can race on and there are some bows I wouldn't want to ride at a walk - the " fetlock-touching-the-ground" type bow. Back in the day when I trained racehorses, one of the finest working hunters on the MHSA was a horse with both front bows. Firing is a bit different. Some folks do it prophylactically because they reckon all 2 yo will buck shins so let's get it all done at once. I've never personally chosen to fire a horse. I don't think firing, into and unto itself, should be that big of a career determinant. I'll be honest - I'd be a lot slower to invest the time and training into eventing a bowed horse than a fired one.
            Last edited by Running Fox Farm; Mar. 22, 2010, 05:29 PM. Reason: add name
            " It's about the horse, and that's it."
            George Morris

            Comment


            • #7
              I used to work for a sports medicine vet and we pin fired horses. It was horrible in my mind and she did a lot of unethical things but that is for another thread....

              To address the original question: I think that it's sort of like people saying that they'll never buy a horse who has bowed before. It's all about how much risk one is willing to take. Pin firing is used to "fix" or "correct" issues with ligaments (i think- maybe tendons, too) and that suggests that there has, at one time, been a soft tissue issue with the horse's legs. Of course, it does not categorically mean that a horse can't do something (like event or even event at the upper levels), but it does indicate some wear and tear.

              I don't really know enough about the practice or pin firing to say much more about it but what else I do have to say isn't pretty. Every time I see a horse with white spots on their legs I shudder...

              Any vets with better info, please chime in. But it seemed pretty barbaric to me... but I will admit that I'm pretty idealistic and have really high standards for horse care.
              "We can judge the heart of a man by his treatment of animals" Immanuel Kant

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Running Fox Farm View Post
                Enjoytheride - what's your opinion on this? A bow is a " variable' sort of a thing. There are some bows that horse's can race on and there are some bows I wouldn't want to ride at a walk - the " fetlock-touching-the-ground" type bow. Back in the day when I trained racehorses, one of the finest working hunters on the MHSA was a horse with both front bows. Firing is a bit different. Some folks do it prophylactically because they reckon all 2 yo will buck shins so let's get it all done at once. I've never personally chosen to fire a horse. I don't think firing, into and unto itself, should be that big of a career determinant. I'll be honest - I'd be a lot slower to invest the time and training into eventing a bowed horse than a fired one.
                Pin firing is stupid and meaningless, period. It means nothing in terms of a horse's future soundness or limitations. Even if you ruptured the flexor tendon the fetlock wouldn't touch the ground since it is supported by the suspensory ligaments not the tendon so I don't know what to tell you there. Generally speaking a horse that has bowed is more likely to rebow than one that has never bowed. Its a fine line of management with a big dose of luck thrown in there.
                McDowell Racing Stables

                Home Away From Home

                Comment


                • #9
                  Of all the "common" racing injuries, pin firing bothers me the least. I also haven't seen a correlation to pin firing to longevity.
                  Experience is what you get, when you didn't get what you wanted.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by blaster View Post
                    Of all the "common" racing injuries, pin firing bothers me the least. I also haven't seen a correlation to pin firing to longevity.
                    Pinfiring isn't an injury. it's a treatment (albeit an archaic one) most often seen used for bucked shins, as mentioned before, or bowed tendons. You would have to investigate the severity of the original injury to determine what the horse's future usefulness might be.
                    I bought a 1992 TB in 1996 who had been pinfired on the left front for a relatively minor bow. I showed her in the hunters all the way up to 3'3" and then foxhunted her 3 days a week for several years. she is semi retired now, but due to hocks, not the bow or the firing.
                    "Perhaps the final test of anybody's love of dogs is their willingness to permit them to make a camping ground of the bed" -Henry T. Merwin

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Say What?

                      I had a horse we pin fired as treatment for a cracked splint. I'm not sure that the treatment actually had any effect (the splint did heal quickly then - but might have anyway), but I did run him Prelim while the nasty pinfiring pits were still a little gooey. The vet said the only issue would be possible infection from the water jump. So we plastered some of that vaseline-like stuff on it. And it never gave him a minute of problem. That was many years ago. In retrospect, I don't know that firing was a good idea, but it didn't interfere w/ competing.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        I'm surprised it's still done and would count it as a point against the horse for having been unfortunate enough to be in a barn that still practices 18th century veterinary techniques.

                        Other than that, it wouldn't concern me.
                        Click here before you buy.

                        Comment

                        • Original Poster

                          #13
                          Originally posted by Laurierace View Post
                          Pin firing is stupid and meaningless, period. It means nothing in terms of a horse's future soundness or limitations. Even if you ruptured the flexor tendon the fetlock wouldn't touch the ground since it is supported by the suspensory ligaments not the tendon so I don't know what to tell you there. Generally speaking a horse that has bowed is more likely to rebow than one that has never bowed. Its a fine line of management with a big dose of luck thrown in there.
                          No argument w/ that. Like I said, I've never chosen to fire a horse- it kind of struck me like the same kind of medicine as using leeches! I already have a well-formed opinion on bows. My curiosity is this; this local, apparently well-respected(?) trainer stated pin-fired horses WERE NOT safe to jump/event. I've always found pinfiring, if done for bucked shins as is usually the practice, didn't make a horse unfit for a career in eventing/jumping. I appreciate your take on the situation as I agree w/you, it should not be regarded as a career-limiting issue. I really hate to see this person advising folks off horses for reasons that don't make a lick of common sense, especially since some of these horses really need jobs/homes.
                          " It's about the horse, and that's it."
                          George Morris

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Some trainers used to pin fire everything. I don't see it nearly as much as I did 15 years ago and I'm surprised it's still happening.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              pin firing is illigal in the UK now. Some trainers do bring their horses to ireland where it is still practiced. I am seeing it less and less, thank goodness, as it is a barbaric thing to do and a very ugly thing to see being done.

                              Comment


                              • #16
                                Some race trainers also pin fire the cannons and splints to (supposedly) help prevent bucked shins or popped splints. They do both fronts before the horse is ever sent into training. I don't agree with it, but pin firing does not necessarily mean there was an injury.

                                Additionally, I don't think pin firing on some old splints means the horse can't gallop or jump. Many horses have popped a splint and it doesn't affect their athletic career.

                                Comment


                                • #17
                                  Well, either the trainer is an idiot, or they are in an area where there is a track that has vets/trainers that pinfire and they want to reduce the chances of their clients getting ideas about finding/buying inexpensive horses instead of paying them a hefty commission to find more expensive ones.

                                  Oh I'm such a cynic....

                                  Jennifer
                                  Third Charm Event Team

                                  Comment


                                  • #18
                                    I don't have any experience with bows other then riding a few with them. I have heard that the bow comes back stronger if it was healed right then the leg before. I have also heard that eventing does not put as much strain on a horse as racing does. The adoption agency with a different opinion had me confused.
                                    http://weanieeventer.blogspot.com/

                                    Comment


                                    • #19
                                      Originally posted by enjoytheride View Post
                                      I don't have any experience with bows other then riding a few with them. I have heard that the bow comes back stronger if it was healed right then the leg before. I have also heard that eventing does not put as much strain on a horse as racing does. The adoption agency with a different opinion had me confused.
                                      Tendon lesions heal by filling in with scar tissue. Scar tissue has no "give" meaning it can not stretch. The tendon got a lesion in the first place because it could not stretch enough to compensate for whatever it was doing at the particular time the injury occured. So after it is healed it will be even less likely to be able to compensate because it now stretches less than it could in the first place. In other words horses that have bowed are much more likely to rebow.
                                      Fractures on the other hand do come back stronger than they were before the injury because the body lays down extra calcium. They almost never repeat the same fracture in the same leg.
                                      McDowell Racing Stables

                                      Home Away From Home

                                      Comment


                                      • #20
                                        Thanks for the info!
                                        Last edited by enjoytheride; Mar. 23, 2010, 06:23 AM.
                                        http://weanieeventer.blogspot.com/

                                        Comment

                                        Working...
                                        X