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EXO vs Point Two Air vest

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  • EXO vs Point Two Air vest

    I've noticed a lot of discussion about these vests after the falls at Pine Top this weekend and I would just like to set the record straight about these vests....1st off, I do not in any way represent Point Two...But I do think it is the single best piece of safety equipment to come along since the helmet ! The air vest is quick enough opening that it will significantly reduce your impact with the ground as well as absorb impact from a horse landing on you...It also has a very good neck support system...The EXO (no longer in production btw) does pose a very real whiplash threat. The metal cage will collapse and thus dissipate energy from the impact of a horse landing on you...However as some may think, the frame disintegrates (breaks), it DOES NOT DISSOLVE OR TURN TO DUST....In its original form the EXO would not pass beta testing...Only after it was mated with a standard safety vest to help combat the threat of a broken frame piece penetrating the body did it pass...IMO this is the reason not to wear one....Also the weight of the vest is significant and has been known to actually contribute to riders falling because of the inertia created by the added weight.(much like the early SEI helmets were known to have contributed to smaller riders and kids falling when they got ahead of the motion)...As for the cost of the Point Two, we are sharing them within our barn whenever possible until everyone can get their own...

  • #2
    Please tell me you're a shill for Point Two and not as misguided and misinformed as your post indicates.

    Comment


    • #3
      Paging RAyers...

      Also, someone posted this link on another thread, which I think is a good read for anyone on either side of the debate:
      http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forum...5/fpart/1/vc/1
      Last edited by FrittSkritt; Mar. 3, 2010, 01:34 PM. Reason: added H&H link
      Road to the T3D
      Translation
      fri [fri:] fritt fria (adj): Free
      skritt [skrit:] skritten (noun): Walk

      Comment


      • #4
        I've no opinion on the safety of the Exo, but I saw the Point Two in Florida recently and I'm considering getting one; I think it's intriguing. I read through the whole Horse-and-Hound debate, and thought that parts of it were interesting and parts just stupid--from seeing the P2 up close and seeing how it's worn, I don't think, for example, that there is any way possible its inflation could cause internal injury. I wish there was more science and less anecdote about it. I'd especially like to see any kind of study regarding the effect that being tethered to the saddle has on the trajectory of the fall.

        I'm very curious as to whether any of the riders injured at Pine Top was wearing a Point 2. And what type of falls were they? I've seen both Jan and Rebecca's falls described as "rotational," but haven't heard a word on Karen's.

        Comment


        • #5
          tomac, as a professor in the Metallurgical and Materials Engineering Department at the Colorado School of Mines who teaches fundamental materials engineering and their applications, I can easily state that your post contains a glaringly LARGE number of factual errors and misconceptions.

          I will assume since you said, "As for the cost of the Point Two, we are sharing them within our barn whenever possible until everyone can get their own... " like most professional trainers/barn owners/riders, you are showing true ignorance to what and how safety devices function.

          I am tired of folks making unfounded and unsubstantiated assessments of equipment.

          Please present the data or studies that prove your BELIEF because as you write that is what it is.

          I will say this, any device requiring a mechanical trigger to function also has ADDED a point of FAILURE for the device to NOT work. The P2 vest is NOT a FAIL-SAFE design. It is a FAIL-DANGEROUS design. There is a REASON why jockeys are NOT allowed to wear P2 vests.

          Reed

          Comment


          • #6
            The reason the EXO has not been a massive success has to be partly because of people like tomac who scare-monger. Seriously, if the Exo had been given to all the pros, I wonder if it might have been more successful.

            ETA: Since when did production of the Exo end? I'd like a link for that, perhaps.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by tomac View Post
              The air vest is quick enough opening that it will significantly reduce your impact with the ground as well as absorb impact from a horse landing on you..
              Please describe how you come to this assessment? Were there load cells attached to the body to measure impact forces? How does this compare to other vests? Was at any time an analysis of a horse landing on a person conducted? What are the impact forces exerted on the body during a rotational fall?


              Originally posted by tomac View Post
              ..It also has a very good neck support system.
              How so? Does this mean that compressive loads imparted on the head are then transferred to the spine?

              Originally posted by tomac View Post
              The EXO (no longer in production btw) does pose a very real whiplash threat.
              Proven how? How does this compare to other vests on the market? As far as I understand the vest is still in production with all proceeds going to the BE injured riders fund.


              Originally posted by tomac View Post
              The metal cage will collapse and thus dissipate energy from the impact of a horse landing on you...However as some may think, the frame disintegrates (breaks), it DOES NOT DISSOLVE OR TURN TO DUST.
              Uh, you obviously have no idea about the mechanical and material properties of magnesium. Now, using YOUR mental ideas, I will ask you this, if a Mg frame is SO bad why is it used EXTENSIVELY as a frame for super cars and race cars? Hmmm... It must have some AMAZING impact protective properties.

              As a matter of fact, Mg is CLOSER to acting like native bone in its mechanical properties than any other material. In other words, it can DEFORM and RETURN to its original shape under much HIGHER loads than even STEEL or TITANIUM.

              What does this all mean? It DISSIPATES LARGE AMOUNTS OF ENERGY through the deformation of the bonds of the atoms in the structure and can still remain intact. This is a reason why Mg is used in situations where HIGH impact forces are expected.


              Originally posted by tomac View Post
              Also the weight of the vest is significant and has been known to actually contribute to riders falling because of the inertia created by the added weight (much like the early SEI helmets were known to have contributed to smaller riders and kids falling when they got ahead of the motion).
              Proven how? What study? The never was any study done on helmets per se as you imply.

              Comment


              • #8
                Reed-

                I understand that the tether is a place the vest can fail--it only works if triggered. But are you saying this makes wearing it more dangerous than not wearing it? Since it's worn over a conventional vest, if it doesn't inflate, you've got essentially a conventional vest--not more dangerous than you were before you started.

                Or do you fear that the break-away of the tether will fail? That would be a different problem altogether, potentially much more serious.

                I don't understand why EXO didn't hand out a bunch of freebies to highly-visible top-level riders. It's straightforward marketing--no different than free review copies of my novels going out to members of the Newbery committee.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by gully's pilot View Post
                  Reed-

                  I understand that the tether is a place the vest can fail--it only works if triggered. But are you saying this makes wearing it more dangerous than not wearing it? Since it's worn over a conventional vest, if it doesn't inflate, you've got essentially a conventional vest--not more dangerous than you were before you started.....
                  The fact the P2 REQUIRES a standard vest underneath is because it is a FAIL-DANGEROUS design. It means it should NEVER be used as the sole source of protection, unlike EXO, RP, CO vests.

                  Failure can be:

                  1) the rider never separates far enough from the horse to trigger the vest
                  2) the lanyard fails
                  3) the rider fails to fasten the lanyard appropriately or even at all
                  4) the gas canister fails (leak, not charged, insufficient pressure)
                  5) the gas canister is punctured during the fall
                  6) the vest is punctured during the fall
                  7) the rider is not separated with enough force to pull the lanyard

                  These are all off the top of my head. But you see that the rider than has to rely on the factory doing their job but even there there is a failure rate.

                  So I ask you, if you have to have a rotation, and you KNOW that one in every 10,000 canisters (these are standard canisters you get for a variety of other uses) fail but pass through to be sold, are you willing to bet your life on that? Can you be SURE that your P2 vest will work EVERYTIME?

                  Reed

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by gully's pilot View Post
                    I don't understand why EXO didn't hand out a bunch of freebies to highly-visible top-level riders.
                    They tried to. BNrs balked at the weight. However, UK eventer Kitty Boggis did accept. (I discussed this personally with the EXO people.)

                    But BNrs aren't so good at math. When you add up the weight of the PointTwo (900g) and a conventional body protector, you're not far off the weight of the EXO so it's not a very strong argument.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Reed-

                      No, I don't think you can say the P2 will work every time. But I think you can say it will work most of the time. Given that you do wear it over the conventional vest, if the errors in the P2 aren't going to be harmful, it can't hurt. So, as I see it, the main salient questions are:

                      --if the P2 doesn't perform correctly, is that harmful?

                      --if the P2 performs as it should, is it helpful? To what degree, under what conditions?

                      --if the P2 performs as it should, can it still be harmful (ie, the tether changes the flight of the fall to a more dangerous one; the forces are shifted in a way that causes more harm than the same fall without the P2)?

                      --what are the odds that the P2 will fail?

                      If you know the answer to all that, you can do the math and determine whether or not wearing the P2 is a statistically useful thing to do.

                      Of course, we don't seem to know the answers; I would like to.

                      But I think you're answering a different question--is the P2 better or worse than the Exo--and duh, that's the topic of the this thread, but it's not as much what I'd like to know as the answers to the others.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        I've taken several falls in the last several years, but every damn one of them was in showjumping. Where's the app for that?

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by gully's pilot View Post
                          Of course, we don't seem to know the answers; I would like to.
                          The other relevant question is whether the level of protection offered by the Point Two (as worn over the conventional BP) represents a significant improvement over the level of protection of the conventional BP.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            No, I am not answering any question. I am responding to the idea that the P2 vest is the best idea (no it is not and neither is the EXO, RP or any other vest).

                            You ask the questions that any true engineer should ask for any product they are developing.

                            Here is the crux of it, what are good odds to you as to the vest working? How will you feel if you are the one failure? It is too easy to dismiss things in this sport as "Oh well, thems the breaks." yet turn around and sue Toyota of 19 failures out of over 20 MILLION vehicles! It is a form of hypocrisy. It is easy to dismiss risk and injury when it happens to somebody else.

                            Originally posted by gully's pilot View Post
                            Reed-

                            No, I don't think you can say the P2 will work every time. But I think you can say it will work most of the time. Given that you do wear it over the conventional vest, if the errors in the P2 aren't going to be harmful, it can't hurt. So, as I see it, the main salient questions are:

                            --if the P2 doesn't perform correctly, is that harmful?

                            --if the P2 performs as it should, is it helpful? To what degree, under what conditions?

                            --if the P2 performs as it should, can it still be harmful (ie, the tether changes the flight of the fall to a more dangerous one; the forces are shifted in a way that causes more harm than the same fall without the P2)?

                            --what are the odds that the P2 will fail?

                            If you know the answer to all that, you can do the math and determine whether or not wearing the P2 is a statistically useful thing to do.

                            Of course, we don't seem to know the answers; I would like to.

                            But I think you're answering a different question--is the P2 better or worse than the Exo--and duh, that's the topic of the this thread, but it's not as much what I'd like to know as the answers to the others.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Good grief, give the guy a break. He expressed his opinion about a vest, presumably based on his own experience with it, and nothing else. He didn't claim scientific certainty or absolutes.

                              Comment


                              • #16
                                Originally posted by flabbergasted View Post
                                Good grief, give the guy a break. He expressed his opinion about a vest, presumably based on his own experience with it, and nothing else. He didn't claim scientific certainty or absolutes.
                                Whilst making claims such as this:
                                The EXO (no longer in production btw) does pose a very real whiplash threat

                                Comment


                                • #17
                                  Anybody can have any opinion at all.

                                  My opinion is, I would like to know if the vest is actually helpful before I spend $700 on it, and I sure as heck want to believe it won't be harmful.

                                  The science here reminds me a lot of food science--butter is horrible, margarine is great, no, wait, margarine is horrible, butter is better, no wait--

                                  However, a big difference between body protectors and margarine is that the science of falls, while complex, is much easier to accurately understand than the science of interactions within all systems of the human body. So I remain hopeful that someone will figure it all out.

                                  As for being the one failure in 10,000 (if those are really the odds), I'm okay with that. It sucks to be that one, but those are still pretty reasonable odds given all the other stuff that can go wrong with horses. My husband makes his living as a cataract surgeon; the national average for a particular kind of surgical complication is 4%, my husband's average is less than 0.1%, or less than one in a thousand, so I have a feel for what that means on a daily basis.

                                  Comment


                                  • #18
                                    Originally posted by flabbergasted View Post
                                    Good grief, give the guy a break. He expressed his opinion about a vest, presumably based on his own experience with it, and nothing else. He didn't claim scientific certainty or absolutes.

                                    Hey, none of the statements I asked questions about were stated as opinion. They were stated as fact with no substantiation with the overall observation, "I would just like to set the record straight about these vests."

                                    If he was a student of mine, he just failed his degree.

                                    Reed

                                    Comment


                                    • #19
                                      Originally posted by gully's pilot View Post
                                      ..
                                      However, a big difference between body protectors and margarine is that the science of falls, while complex, is much easier to accurately understand than the science of interactions within all systems of the human body. So I remain hopeful that someone will figure it all out.

                                      As for being the one failure in 10,000 (if those are really the odds), I'm okay with that. It sucks to be that one, but those are still pretty reasonable odds given all the other stuff that can go wrong with horses. My husband makes his living as a cataract surgeon; the national average for a particular kind of surgical complication is 4%, my husband's average is less than 0.1%, or less than one in a thousand, so I have a feel for what that means on a daily basis.
                                      Not really. The science of falls is still not well calculated or understood because of the biomechanics of the body and the tissues. The mechanics of injury are almost as complex as understanding biology. There is a reason why there are thousands of people who do this type research (not specifically pertaining to horses).

                                      Again, not meaning to take away from your perspective, you are giving you opinion as to the relative risk which is fine for you. However are you willing to have everybody have to agree with you about those risks? You may be fine wit it but I am sure a mother of a child competing probably isn't or a sole provider for a family isn't.

                                      Thus a company that makes safety products should not be fine with added risks either. Otherwise they risk legal liability when something goes wrong. As Toyota, Sulzer Medica (they went bankrupt due to a single failure that cost them $1 billion in law suit settlements) and others.

                                      Comment


                                      • #20
                                        you guys and argue and moan all you want to but it comes down to this...what ever the rider is willing to wear is what is going to be safest for that rider.

                                        There are times that nothing will save us.
                                        Riding a horse can be like sitting on a 1500lb torpedo with a bad clutch. Any type of fall is a situation with insane possibilty.

                                        The fact of the matter is:

                                        1. The Exo is hard to fit (right Rayers? didn't you have to buy yours for a large amount and THEN have your students fit it to you?) ya, thought so.
                                        Sorry, we all don't have rocket scientists on our pinkies to help us out in life.

                                        2. The Exo is not comfortable

                                        3. The Exo is really hard to put on

                                        Doesn't matter how great the Exo is--if you aren't going to wear it then that is the end of the story.

                                        My friend has one but it does her little good because she is purple when she comes across the finish line. Those vests can really make you feel 'stuck' which then can lead to anxiety.

                                        I too would be more willing to wear the Point Two.

                                        Stats would be nice though, as everyone has mentioned.

                                        Is the Exo really out of production?
                                        http://kaboomeventing.com/
                                        http://kaboomeventing.blogspot.com/
                                        Horses are amazing athletes and make no mistake -- they are the stars of the show!

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