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Olympic tragedy-Safety in sport

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  • #21
    Unfortunately, no matter the sport, no amount of protective gear and/or padding on the structures will protect you when you go from 140 km/h to 0 km/h in less than a second.

    I still think you have to be nuts to participate in such sports, but I am sure the athletes know the risks and still choose to participate. I am very sorry for this Georgian athlete and his family.

    Comment


    • #22
      They are expecting to see speeds up to 155km/h on the track. It is fast.

      Drivers have a brake on their luge. They can slow down. He was going too fast for his experience level. We see this all the time in eventing. That rider was going too fast for the experience, for the track, etc... and accidents, sometimes fatalities occur.

      Both sports are incredibly dangerous sports. Adding a net would not have stopped his accident. When you are going 150km/h a mesh net wouldn't stop him from hitting the beam. His force probably would have just moved it, or if it was tight enough, it probably would have injured him also.

      It's a problem when inexperienced competitors are on the same track as the worlds best. This happens ALL the time in eventing. Think of all the rookies at Rolex competing against Mark Todd and Bruce Davidson. But you should ride at what your experience allows you to do.

      It is a tragedy. It is so sad and so horrible what happened to this young man. The media has crossed the boundary in publishing this footage. It should not be allowed.

      I hope the rest of the games happen with no further heartbrake, but there are HUNDREDS of athletes competing in a raft of dangerous sports. Anything can happen.

      Comment


      • #23
        Mathematics?

        It may be that too much mathematics went into course design. I know when analyzing car accidents with barriers they have to know why a barrier didn't stop a car from going over a high concrete barrier and into oncoming traffic. Mathematically it shouldn't be possible but obviously it happened. In this case likely the course was designed so that someone couldn't go over the wall while luging. But like eventing there is the decisions of the competitor to consider. As the luger crashed he tried to save himself by grabbing what was there...the top of the wall. That changed his trajectory and put him over the wall. If he would have let the design of the course save him he likely would have been fine. Course design is so many elements, it can't be perfect. Nothing can be perfect. We can try to consider all possible reactions but the best we can really do is make sure something doesn't happen again. PatO

        Comment


        • #24
          Originally posted by LAZ View Post
          I think it the news media has crossed the line on this one. It is ghoulish to show, in detail, the moment of death. I haven't seen any of the video or the photos--I've been avoiding them successfully thus far. But I believe the people and programs that have published/run the footage should be ashamed of themselves.
          ABSOLUTELY! I was watching the evening news last night, I think it was CBS and didn't know about it, next thing you knwo they are SHOWING THE ACCIDENT on national TV and not only once but THREE TIMES and in slow motoin! How terrible for the family! I am sorry but that is WAY beyond "freedom of speech"!!
          www.shawneeacres.net

          Comment


          • #25
            Originally posted by FalseImpression View Post
            Unfortunately, no matter the sport, no amount of protective gear and/or padding on the structures will protect you when you go from 140 km/h to 0 km/h in less than a second.
            Then the track shouldn't allow such speeds.

            I read somewhere that the fastest speed recorded on the luge track in Torino was 86 mph. Yesterday, people were in the 95/96 range.

            10 mph is a significant difference. KE = 1/2 mass x velocity squared, right?

            It's not as if there'll be too many double clears in luge if the track is too easy. It's a freaking race. The spectators can't tell if they're going 30 or 40 or 70 mph.

            And it does matter what kind of material you land on. A steel column is about the worst you could hope for. This month, Popular Mechanics has a very entertaining article called How to Fall 35,000 Feet -- And Survive.

            The irony is people might actually pay attention to luge for once.

            As for photos and video, there's a lot that can be learned from watching accidents. This was a very public event, with teams funded by government money and an event bailed out by taxpayer money. If the truth of the Olympics (or any particular sport) is ugly, than so be it.

            (In my own family, we've had to deal with a great loss in a very public incident. It doesn't get better over time but none of us would advocate any sort of censorship. You can always look away.)

            Comment


            • #26
              Originally posted by JER View Post

              As for photos and video, there's a lot that can be learned from watching accidents. This was a very public event, with teams funded by government money and an event bailed out by taxpayer money. If the truth of the Olympics (or any particular sport) is ugly, than so be it.

              (In my own family, we've had to deal with a great loss in a very public incident. It doesn't get better over time but none of us would advocate any sort of censorship. You can always look away.)
              JER, I agree with you that there is much to be learned from videos of such things. However, I do not think they should be broadcast on the evening news, repeatedly and in slow motion. Let them be posted up on the Olympics site or You-Tube, or whatever association the Luge is run under.

              But I think it is highly inappropriate to show the crash and death on national TV and to publish pictures of a dead man crashing into a post. To me it is ghoulish and takes no account of the family and friends that have to deal with their grief, knowing the moment of death is being replayed over, and over, for entertainment.

              P.S. I am sorry for your loss. I think that would be terribly difficult.
              Last edited by LAZ; Feb. 13, 2010, 07:14 PM. Reason: Adding PS

              Comment


              • #27
                When I was in Florida last month, I noticed a couple of BNRs wearing a type of safety vest I'd never seen before. I asked about it, and then saw a demo video at a tent the company had set up on the grounds.

                Basically, they're inflatable vests (right now worn over the regular safety vest) with tethers to the saddle--if you leave the saddle, the vest inflates, up around your neck (but not an airbag-type blast, just the actual vest inflating) and around your ribcage and spine.

                The technology is very well known, because these things are standard in motorcycle racing. The video I saw included a really horrific rotational fall at last year's European Championships--vest inflated as the horse was going over--horse rolled over the rider--rider got up, shaking his head in amazement, totally unhurt.

                Anyway, wouldn't something similar work for luge? Tethered to the sled?


                The riding vests cost $700; I'm thinking seriously of getting one. It's a lot of ching, but cheaper by far than a trip to the ER.

                Comment


                • #28
                  Originally posted by gully's pilot View Post
                  When I was in Florida last month, I noticed a couple of BNRs wearing a type of safety vest I'd never seen before. I asked about it, and then saw a demo video at a tent the company had set up on the grounds.

                  Basically, they're inflatable vests (right now worn over the regular safety vest) with tethers to the saddle--if you leave the saddle, the vest inflates, up around your neck (but not an airbag-type blast, just the actual vest inflating) and around your ribcage and spine.

                  The technology is very well known, because these things are standard in motorcycle racing. The video I saw included a really horrific rotational fall at last year's European Championships--vest inflated as the horse was going over--horse rolled over the rider--rider got up, shaking his head in amazement, totally unhurt.

                  Anyway, wouldn't something similar work for luge? Tethered to the sled?


                  The riding vests cost $700; I'm thinking seriously of getting one. It's a lot of ching, but cheaper by far than a trip to the ER.
                  I thought the same thing earlier today when I was thinking about it... but they have to be very loose around your body otherwise when they inflate they would be way too tight. This would make the luger not only less aerodynamic, but also would probably make them slide around on the luge.

                  Comment


                  • #29
                    Originally posted by gully's pilot View Post
                    When I was in Florida last month, I noticed a couple of BNRs wearing a type of safety vest I'd never seen before. I asked about it, and then saw a demo video at a tent the company had set up on the grounds.

                    Basically, they're inflatable vests (right now worn over the regular safety vest) with tethers to the saddle--if you leave the saddle, the vest inflates, up around your neck (but not an airbag-type blast, just the actual vest inflating) and around your ribcage and spine.

                    The technology is very well known, because these things are standard in motorcycle racing. The video I saw included a really horrific rotational fall at last year's European Championships--vest inflated as the horse was going over--horse rolled over the rider--rider got up, shaking his head in amazement, totally unhurt.

                    The riding vests cost $700; I'm thinking seriously of getting one. It's a lot of ching, but cheaper by far than a trip to the ER.
                    If you want to buy an actual safety product, a WoofWear EXO will cost you half as much.

                    You are talking about the Point Two Air Jacket. It cannot protect you from massive crush injuries (which is what kills riders in rotational falls). And if you look at photos and videos of the product in use (including some of their own promotional photos) you'll see the vest inflating after the rider has hit the ground.

                    The Point Two has been discussed on here a number of times. I recommend doing a search. Also, do a search on the Horse & Hound BB because there's a great thread in which the lies and evasions of the company are laid out in detail.

                    The reason that BNRs have been seen wearing this item of apparel is because the company gives them to these riders. It's marketing without the research to back it up.

                    Don't be sucked in.

                    Comment


                    • #30
                      Absolutely the BNRs were given them as a promo tool--I'm sure of that. And I'd love to hear from people that use them or use the EXO vest. The one video, though, clearly did show the vest inflating before the fall--and this was at an actual event, not a simulation.

                      It's probably true that they wouldn't work for luge; I forgot about the aerodynamics. Though the motorcycle racing suits were substantially different from the eventing vest in the way they were designed; it might be possible.

                      It's very hard in any accident to say what protective gear would be enough (or would have been enough) to make a difference. The physics of it is so complicated. I'm pretty sure nothing could have saved the Georgian luger. But I know a rider who had a rotational fall 2 years ago--she broke ribs and was knocked unconscious. I could see that the inflatable vest might have been enough to save her ribs. In another case, it might be the difference between a truly crushing fall and just breaking ribs.

                      But please, if anyone uses either the inflatable vest or the EXO, chime in. I'd love to hear from you.

                      Comment


                      • #31
                        In a sense the physics is not that complicated. Whether the protection is rigid, e.g. EXO, or deformable, e.g. Point Two, there are significant trade-offs and potential risks for each.

                        Sadly, we have ignorant and uninformed professional riders and trainers touting the failings of one (incorrectly) and the amazing capacity of another (also incorrectly). I will say this, The Point Two bases its design and function off of motorcycling which has a completely different accident mechanism. There is a reason why motorcycle safety equipment is not effective in horse riding. The physics of the accident are different but not any more complex. Sadly, customers believe that since it must be protective in motorcycle accidents it HAS to work on a horse. The counter logic is if this is such an effective protective device, racing jockeys would be flocking to the product.

                        In the end, the luger was going as a such high rate of speed, there is no protective device or mechanism that would have saved him. This is something we do not need to concern ourselves with in the horses. While an air vest may have prevented large external injuries, when the luger hit the post, his internal organs kept going at 90mph.

                        I use an EXO. The specific design (simple) and the materials (Mg frame) and the fact it does NOT rely on an external trigger mechanism (e.g. it is in a fail-safe mode at all times) are why I chose it.

                        Reed

                        Comment


                        • #32
                          Originally posted by LAZ View Post
                          I think the parallel here is that you can not make an inherently high risk sport completely safe.

                          Race drivers die in car accidents
                          Skiers die in skiing accidents
                          Riders die in horse accidents
                          Luge runners die in luge accidents.
                          etc, etc.

                          I listened to a program on NPR yesterday about how they prepare these tracks with many safety features to try to keep the drivers on the track, but unfortunately sometimes the risk that is inherent in such a sport happens.

                          I'm sure this will result in a very thorough analysis is the safety failure, and hopefully a fail safe that will protect another person from the same safety failure.

                          But you are never going to make a high risk sport completely, totally safe. Nor would most participants want the sport "dumbed down" to that level as the challenge would be gone.
                          I am sorry, but if you have a track, that officials, and people at the top of the sport say is dangerous, you have I beams exposed on curves that the best are saying are giong to be extremely fast, and you have first responders who don't have O2 available at....., I mean really? Am a paramedic, and I don't really understand the whole not having O2 available. Even at some events, I see response teams that have some basic stuff, but no 02.

                          This doesn't speak to me of a sport that is trying to be safe....I agree with eariler posts. There was no Basular protection, they have no protection of vital organs, banks could easily be built that wll prevent them flying off...heck, put up safety netting if nothing else....( just saw someone else suggested and reason not to, still think it is better than nothing, but am not sure plexiglass would work either....seems like an immoveable object.

                          I understand the "thrill" of the game....but it isn't a thrill to watch your child die on video as those parents are doing. It isn't a thrill to see that curtain come up around your child at an event....

                          Anyone who feels that the danger should "just be understood" has been incredibly lucky.

                          I think there are ways to make this safer, both Luge, and Eventing....unfortunately, expense, people's ideals, and politics keep it from happening. And as for xc objects being able to collape, or break away, no, they won't protect everyone....there will still be3 accidents. But it will also save lives....I hear the argument all the time, that it won't be the same sport, it won't be natural. I get so tired of that argument....is that really, truley, more important to those of you that feel that way, than someone's life?
                          Last edited by gold2012; Feb. 14, 2010, 11:21 AM. Reason: saw another post.
                          May the sun shine on you daily, and your worries be gone with the wind.
                          www.mmceventing.com

                          Comment


                          • #33
                            Originally posted by RAyers View Post
                            The counter logic is if this is such an effective protective device, racing jockeys would be flocking to the product.
                            The Point Two was developed for racing in the UK but the racing authorities wouldn't allow it to be used by jockeys. IIRC, one of the main issues was the lanyard that attaches the saddle/cartridge and the rider.

                            Comment


                            • #34
                              Can someone please post a link to some research comparing the EXO and the Point two vest and where is it that the EXO is avail at half the price of the Point Two...the link I found listed it at the same price range

                              Comment


                              • #35
                                Originally posted by JER View Post
                                The Point Two was developed for racing in the UK but the racing authorities wouldn't allow it to be used by jockeys. IIRC, one of the main issues was the lanyard that attaches the saddle/cartridge and the rider.
                                I did not realize that. But it again points out that when safety equipment relies on a MECHANICAL trigger and an external component, there comes too much risk in a failure. It makes the system fail-dangerous, not fail-safe.

                                I bought my EXO for $421 US.

                                Reed

                                Comment


                                • #36
                                  Originally posted by advmom View Post
                                  Can someone please post a link to some research comparing the EXO and the Point two vest and where is it that the EXO is avail at half the price of the Point Two...the link I found listed it at the same price range
                                  You could search this forum and find the answers you're looking for. These products have been the subject of much discussion over the years.

                                  Point Two USA website
                                  EXO BodyCage website
                                  WoofWear website (for EXO Body Protector)

                                  Very provocative thread at Horse & Hound BB about PointTwo


                                  EXO at Buttons Saddlery, UK

                                  I also have an EXO. I'm an EMT.

                                  Comment


                                  • #37
                                    Originally posted by RAyers View Post
                                    I did not realize that. But it again points out that when safety equipment relies on a MECHANICAL trigger and an external component, there comes too much risk in a failure. It makes the system fail-dangerous, not fail-safe.
                                    The PointTwo doesn't deploy at all if you're not sufficiently separated from your horse.

                                    Which means it might not do anything at all in a rotational fall.

                                    Comment


                                    • #38
                                      Back to the luge tragedy for a moment...

                                      Jere Longman of the New York Times has a scathing piece on the luge governing body's response:

                                      Olympic officials treated the death of Nodar Kumaritashvili, the Georgian luge athlete, less as a tragedy than as an inconvenience.

                                      The sport’s international governing body released a callous statement late Friday night, about 10 hours after Kumaritashvili died, publicly blaming the 21-year-old for his own death. Athletes were attaining speeds at the Whistler Sliding Center far exceeding what the track was designed for, but the track was not the problem. It was a user error, the statement implied.

                                      ....

                                      A thorough investigation was supposed to have been conducted. Instead, the luge federation seemed more concerned about getting the track opened again for competition on Saturday than about taking a hard look at the conditions that might have contributed to Kumaritashvili’s death.

                                      Comment


                                      • #39
                                        I don't think plexiglass would work. The track would melt when the sun starts beating down on it. It's really the speed element and the lugers' ability to control the sled.

                                        Comment


                                        • #40
                                          Originally posted by JER View Post
                                          Back to the luge tragedy for a moment...

                                          Jere Longman of the New York Times has a scathing piece on the luge governing body's response:
                                          Quote:
                                          Olympic officials treated the death of Nodar Kumaritashvili, the Georgian luge athlete, less as a tragedy than as an inconvenience.

                                          The sport’s international governing body released a callous statement late Friday night, about 10 hours after Kumaritashvili died, publicly blaming the 21-year-old for his own death. Athletes were attaining speeds at the Whistler Sliding Center far exceeding what the track was designed for, but the track was not the problem. It was a user error, the statement implied.

                                          ....

                                          A thorough investigation was supposed to have been conducted. Instead, the luge federation seemed more concerned about getting the track opened again for competition on Saturday than about taking a hard look at the conditions that might have contributed to Kumaritashvili’s death.
                                          Exactly. My question below is about PRESENTATION issues that many governing bodies seem to have, including Luge and Eventing. The apparent hang-ups about communicating with outsiders where these GBs shoot themselves in the foot when an accident happens. Why do federation heads of all kinds keep thinking they are better off to chant that They Aren’t to Blame rather than acknowledging the obvious issues and then stating how they have addressed them? Thereby demonstrating some lack of fault rather than just claiming lack of fault? Why NOT keep focus on what has been done for safety rather than the rush to avoid any possible appearance of blame, which just makes a federation look ‘even more guilty’?

                                          Why does the luge federation feel they have to say ‘it’s the athlete’s mistake’, and not acknowledge that most people can see that safety includes keeping the athletes contained in the track? Why not just say instead, ‘Gee, we did all the computer modeling for this course with approved computer models to determine the wall height we needed, and all the latest tools said this wall was high enough to prevent all but an infinitesimal percentage of crashes from leaving the track? We did our due diligence but obviously the models didn’t anticipate THIS, so now we will raise the wall and re-evaluate for any containment issues we might have”? That wouldn’t put blame on anyone. Instead they bought themselves a firestorm by blaming the victim when the physical track obviously didn’t quite accomplish containment.

                                          Or at Jersey Fresh 2009 and the DOC interview so many people rolled their eyes at. Beyond the ‘bad mistake’s happen’. Rather than a tone of ‘oh, well, it happens in other sports also’, take the tone of ‘we are doing lots to reduce this’. Mention instead that eventing is pursuing many ways to avoid mistakes becoming fatal. ‘Eventing isn’t perfect but by gosh we’re doing this, this, and this - including frangible pins and the speed study and efforts to design more safety into courses, etc, etc.’ (yes, many people don’t think much of those efforts, but he can at least mention they do exist, even if he doesn’t want to get pulled into a debate on Dangerous Riding rules at that moment in time.)
                                          What is so dangerous about saying ‘we’ve done all these things to improve our safety and eliminate accidents but we haven’t nailed it all down yet’, to the point that no one wants to mention how much they have done/are doing, even in self-defense? The world already knows that problems will come up in inherently dangerous sports, so why not focus on positive efforts instead of just blame shifting, which lead the press and fan base to jump on you all the harder?

                                          Like I mentioned above, my particular question is really about the psychology of leadership with training and intelligence choosing such a seemingly unintelligent approach. Is it siege mentality? Do I just not get how internal politics are working? WHAT is up with this?
                                          HAS provides hospital care to 340,000 people in Haiti's Artibonite Valley 24/7/365/earthquake/cholera/whatever.
                                          www.hashaiti.org blog:http://hashaiti.org/blog

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