Announcement

Collapse

Forum rules and no-advertising policy

As a participant on this forum, it is your responsibility to know and follow our rules. Please read this message in its entirety.

Board Rules

1. You're responsible for what you say.
As outlined in Section 230 of the Communications Decency Act, The Chronicle of the Horse and its affiliates, as well Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd., the developers of vBulletin, are not legally responsible for statements made in the Forums.

This is a public forum viewed by a wide spectrum of people, so please be mindful of what you say and who might be reading it--details of personal disputes may be better handled privately. While posters are legally responsible for their statements, the moderators may in their discretion remove or edit posts, though are not legally obligated to do so, regardless of content.

Users have the ability to modify or delete their own messages after posting. Moderators generally will not delete posts, threads or accounts unless they have been alerted and have determined that a post, thread or user has violated the Forums' policies. Moderators do not regularly independently monitor the Forums for such violations.

Profanity, outright vulgarity, blatant personal insults or otherwise inappropriate statements will not be tolerated and will be dealt with at the discretion of the moderators.

Users may provide their positive or negative experiences with or opinions of companies, products, individuals, etc.; however, accounts involving allegations of criminal behavior against named individuals or companies MUST be first-hand accounts and may NOT be made anonymously.

If a situation has been reported upon by a reputable news source or addressed by law enforcement or the legal system it is open for discussion, but if an individual wants to make their own claims of criminal behavior against a named party in the course of that discussion, they too must identify themselves by first and last name and the account must be first-person.

Criminal allegations that do not satisfy these requirements, when brought to our attention, may be removed pending satisfaction of these criteria, and we reserve the right to err on the side of caution when making these determinations.

Credible threats of suicide will be reported to the police along with identifying user information at our disposal, in addition to referring the user to suicide helpline resources such as 1-800-SUICIDE or 1-800-273-TALK.

2. Conversations in horse-related forums should be horse-related.
The forums are a wonderful source of information and support for members of the horse community. While it's understandably tempting to share information or search for input on other topics upon which members might have a similar level of knowledge, members must maintain the focus on horses.

3. Keep conversations productive, on topic and civil.
Discussion and disagreement are inevitable and encouraged; personal insults, diatribes and sniping comments are unproductive and unacceptable. Whether a subject is light-hearted or serious, keep posts focused on the current topic and of general interest to other participants of that thread. Utilize the private message feature or personal email where appropriate to address side topics or personal issues not related to the topic at large.

4. No advertising in the discussion forums.
Posts in the discussion forums directly or indirectly advertising horses, jobs, items or services for sale or wanted will be removed at the discretion of the moderators. Use of the private messaging feature or email addresses obtained through users' profiles for unsolicited advertising is not permitted.

Company representatives may participate in discussions and answer questions about their products or services, or suggest their products on recent threads if they fulfill the criteria of a query. False "testimonials" provided by company affiliates posing as general consumers are not appropriate, and self-promotion of sales, ad campaigns, etc. through the discussion forums is not allowed.

Paid advertising is available on our classifieds site and through the purchase of banner ads. The tightly monitored Giveaways forum permits free listings of genuinely free horses and items available or wanted (on a limited basis). Items offered for trade are not allowed.

Advertising Policy Specifics
When in doubt of whether something you want to post constitutes advertising, please contact a moderator privately in advance for further clarification. Refer to the following points for general guidelines:

Horses -- Only general discussion about the buying, leasing, selling and pricing of horses is permitted. If the post contains, or links to, the type of specific information typically found in a sales or wanted ad, and it's related to a horse for sale, regardless of who's selling it, it doesn't belong in the discussion forums.

Stallions -- Board members may ask for suggestions on breeding stallion recommendations. Stallion owners may reply to such queries by suggesting their own stallions, only if their horse fits the specific criteria of the original poster. Excessive promotion of a stallion by its owner or related parties is not permitted and will be addressed at the discretion of the moderators.

Services -- Members may use the forums to ask for general recommendations of trainers, barns, shippers, farriers, etc., and other members may answer those requests by suggesting themselves or their company, if their services fulfill the specific criteria of the original post. Members may not solicit other members for business if it is not in response to a direct, genuine query.

Products -- While members may ask for general opinions and suggestions on equipment, trailers, trucks, etc., they may not list the specific attributes for which they are in the market, as such posts serve as wanted ads.

Event Announcements -- Members may post one notification of an upcoming event that may be of interest to fellow members, if the original poster does not benefit financially from the event. Such threads may not be "bumped" excessively. Premium members may post their own notices in the Event Announcements forum.

Charities/Rescues -- Announcements for charitable or fundraising events can only be made for 501(c)(3) tax-exempt organizations. Special exceptions may be made, at the moderators' discretion and direction, for board-related events or fundraising activities in extraordinary circumstances.

Occasional posts regarding horses available for adoption through IRS-registered horse rescue or placement programs are permitted in the appropriate forums, but these threads may be limited at the discretion of the moderators. Individuals may not advertise or make announcements for horses in need of rescue, placement or adoption unless the horse is available through a recognized rescue or placement agency or government-run entity or the thread fits the criteria for and is located in the Giveaways forum.

5. Do not post copyrighted photographs unless you have purchased that photo and have permission to do so.

6. Respect other members.
As members are often passionate about their beliefs and intentions can easily be misinterpreted in this type of environment, try to explore or resolve the inevitable disagreements that arise in the course of threads calmly and rationally.

If you see a post that you feel violates the rules of the board, please click the �alert� button (exclamation point inside of a triangle) in the bottom left corner of the post, which will alert ONLY the moderators to the post in question. They will then take whatever action, or no action, as deemed appropriate for the situation at their discretion. Do not air grievances regarding other posters or the moderators in the discussion forums.

Please be advised that adding another user to your �Ignore� list via your User Control Panel can be a useful tactic, which blocks posts and private messages by members whose commentary you'd rather avoid reading.

7. We have the right to reproduce statements made in the forums.
The Chronicle of the Horse may copy, quote, link to or otherwise reproduce posts, or portions of posts, in print or online for advertising or editorial purposes, if attributed to their original authors, and by posting in this forum, you hereby grant to The Chronicle of the Horse a perpetual, non-exclusive license under copyright and other rights, to do so.

8. We reserve the right to enforce and amend the rules.
The moderators may delete, edit, move or close any post or thread at any time, or refrain from doing any of the foregoing, in their discretion, and may suspend or revoke a user's membership privileges at any time to maintain adherence to the rules and the general spirit of the forum. These rules may be amended at any time to address the current needs of the board.

Please see our full Terms of Service and Privacy Policy for more information.

Thanks for being a part of the COTH forums!

(Revised 5/9/18)
See more
See less

Benefits from USEA Instructor Certification

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

    Benefits from USEA Instructor Certification

    I am an instructor with a modest amount of students, but my husband is military which means that we relocate every 2 to 3 years. since being an instructor is based on your reputation it is very difficult to rebuild my student base each time we move, by the time things are going well- it is time to move again.
    I would like to know from people who have been through the certification program what the benefit to their programs has been? it is an expensive process, and i want to see what others experiences have been and if they thought it was worth the time and money.
    thanks
    Lisa

    Founder of the *Barefoot Eventers Clique*

    Happiness is a state of mind according to how you look at things.. and whether or not you have a sound horse!

    #2
    You know everyone here thinks you are wonderful. Tell him to find a way to stay and that solves the problem. I will miss you too much when you move!

    Comment

      Original Poster

      #3
      oh martha! you are too kind, perhaps if we move you should just come with us and talk me up- maybe that would work- cheaper too i don't want to leave either, it is inevitable at some point though
      Lisa

      Founder of the *Barefoot Eventers Clique*

      Happiness is a state of mind according to how you look at things.. and whether or not you have a sound horse!

      Comment


        #4
        I too have wondered the same thing about it. I'll be interested to see if anyone can provide some insight!
        Lionheart - Tipperary Farm - Grayslake, IL USA
        Cleveland Bay Performance Horses
        www.tipperaryfarm.us
        www.tipperarystud.com

        Comment


          #5
          Besides the fact that your name can be seen on USEA's website by anyone looking for an ICP certified instructor, you would also be eligible for a discount on your liability insurance.
          No Trouble
          2/2/05 - 7/29/13
          Rest In Peace my quirky brave boy, I will love you forever.

          Comment


            #6
            I know that you will hear some criticism of the ICP program here, and probably some true, but strictly replying as a student:

            I have learned that ICP instructors are BETTER than corresponding non-certified instructors, and here's why: they can explain the "why"! They have a base, and a background, and a logical progression to exercises. Now, not all ICP are as good as others, and not all ICP are good communicators, but that's true of non-ICP, too.

            I just have found that ICP have the background and are more worth my time and money than non-ICP. They have more solutions and can find easier and more logical ways to fix things. They are prepared. They make sure students are prepared. They know how to walk courses and know how to observe and pick up on faults and tendencies, and suggest corrections. They try to get it across in different ways. They have a philosophy of teaching that has produced upper level horses and riders and more than one and more than just their own one horse.

            I have taken from a lot of upper level, non-ICP in this area, and I personally have found a real difference in the quality of the lesson that I get. That's just MY take on it. Others will have different views, I am sure, but without getting into individual names, I think the program is probably worth it for any instructor who is very interested in learning more about how to teach better.

            I have heard feedback that the program is very hard and they are very picky and critical, so from what I understand, one has to have a thick skin to complete. There is a lot of study, too.

            There are other instructor certification programs -- ARICP and CHA. No nothing about those, and also of course BHS, altho know nothing about the British program.
            Proud & Permanent Student Of The Long Road
            Read me: EN (http://eventingnation.com/author/annemarch/) and HJU (http://horsejunkiesunited.com/author/holly-covey/)

            Comment


              #7
              I got certified last year (level I training) and I think it made me a better instructor, for many of the reasons that retread listed. It is a *very* tough program, check your ego at the door and be prepared to be challenged about everything you do. That, plus all of the reading on theory and practice, makes you much more confident about why you do things the way you do. The other benefit is networking with other instructors--I have a much bigger support system, and referral network, than I did before I did the program. It was one of the toughest things I've done and the program still has some growing up to do, but I feel it was worth it.
              Did it increase my business? Not in the direct "you're ICP so I'm coming to you as a result" kind of way, but it's improved my word of mouth referrals because I'm a better instructor than I was before.
              As for expense--yes, it's a lot to pay when you've got a business and a mortgage, but it's a hell of a lot cheaper than a college education. (I'm still paying for that.)

              Comment


                #8
                I recently just bought the reading material. I am hoping the program will improve me as an instructor, smooth out some rough edges, and help my students benefit from the results. I think it's a great program. I've participated as a demo rider so I am a bit nervous about being the instructor put on the spot but it will be worth it!
                "Want to ride for fun? Ride a carousel."-Gina Miles

                Comment


                  #9
                  Originally posted by Viva View Post
                  I got certified last year (level I training) and I think it made me a better instructor, for many of the reasons that retread listed. It is a *very* tough program, check your ego at the door and be prepared to be challenged about everything you do. That, plus all of the reading on theory and practice, makes you much more confident about why you do things the way you do. The other benefit is networking with other instructors--I have a much bigger support system, and referral network, than I did before I did the program. It was one of the toughest things I've done and the program still has some growing up to do, but I feel it was worth it.
                  Did it increase my business? Not in the direct "you're ICP so I'm coming to you as a result" kind of way, but it's improved my word of mouth referrals because I'm a better instructor than I was before.
                  As for expense--yes, it's a lot to pay when you've got a business and a mortgage, but it's a hell of a lot cheaper than a college education. (I'm still paying for that.)
                  Ditto this. I got my certification about 5 years ago from ICP at Level I (training). I also got my master certification from CHA before that and it was a much easier program, so I can compare to that.

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Originally posted by retreadeventer View Post
                    I have learned that ICP instructors are BETTER than corresponding non-certified instructors, and here's why: they can explain the "why"! They have a base, and a background, and a logical progression to exercises.

                    This overgeneralization is just plain wrong and unfair.

                    There are plenty of great non-ICP instructors who have a base, a background, a systematic logical progression of excercises, and can explain the "whys" of everything.

                    In fact the instructors who can teach the "whys" because they went through a cookie cutter program are more limited, because they are only repeating what they've been told. Book knowledge is very different than having the skill to break things down and figure out the "whys". The instructor who has the ability to figure it out instead of simply memorizing it, is going to be a lot more successful at this game.
                    http://www.MyVirtualEventingCoach.com

                    Comment


                      #11
                      I have to agree that certification (USEA or otherwise) does not necessarily make one a better instructor, any more than papers make a horse better or a college degree makes one smarter--but, much like a horse having papers or a kid having a degree, it makes one much more marketable. At the very worst, certification at LEAST proves that the individual is capable of memorizing and regurgitating a particular body of information accepted by the licensing organization, providing a baseline of intelligence and minimal intake of conventionally accepted wisdom. (I WISH certification was required, if only b/c it would put the kibosh on a local "trainer", who flaunts conventionally accepted wisdom such as "livestock should not be deliberately turned loose to roam public roadways" and "children should not wear flip-flops while handling horses"... but I digress!)

                      I think any trainer who is capable of meeting the minimal standards is foolish to NOT do so, since it is thereafter free or cheap advertising and they will rapidly recoup their expenses in the form of insurance discounts, discounts at certain retailers, etc.

                      Jennifer
                      Third Charm Event Team

                      Comment


                        #12
                        Benefit: standardized level of knowledge

                        The ICP program guarantees that the instructor has a standardized level of knowledge. This is very important. Having a good trainer is as important as having a good horse. If you have a good horse and you do not have a good trainer, then you will not be able to reach your full potential. The USEA needs to make sure that "trainers" have a standardized level of knowledge... especially if they have students at the upper levels. It is unfair to see young riders waste their time, talents, and parents' resources training with instructors that do not have the knowledge base to help the students achieve their goals. It seems silly that the USEA spends so much time talking about improving safety without addressing the need for trainers to have a standardized level of knowledge. Some trainers have young rider students that are ALWAYS on the "watch list", and it is disappointing that the powers that be do nothing to educate the trainer, student, or parent on the perils of their riding when they plainly discuss it amongst themselves. Part of this is "politics"... You do not have to be ICP certified to be a good trainer, but it does not seem fair to coach students at the upper levels without some sort of certification.

                        Comment


                          #13
                          Originally posted by barnrat View Post
                          You do not have to be ICP certified to be a good trainer, but it does not seem fair to coach students at the upper levels without some sort of certification.

                          Not fair??

                          I totally agree that there are a lot of bad/dangerous instructors out there. But I personally don't feel saying 'ICP certified only' is the answer. I've said it before, and I'll say it again: Certification is great in theory, but not so much in practice. I've seen plenty of instructors who are ICP certified who are NOT good instructors.

                          All of the best instructors I know are not certified. What makes a good instructor? IMO it's natural talent, and apprenticing for a long time with someone who is a master at the sport. To me, having worked with someone who is a PROVEN rider/instructor at top levels is what is most important...bottom line.


                          To the OP, if you want to persue the certification to improve yourself a bit, I'm sure you will get some good things out of it as an instructor. But other than that, don't expect a great return on your investment.

                          I'm BHS certified, and they have a VERY comprehensive and respected program. And although I was young and it was my first time abroad, and involved many interesting experiences, I feel it was really a big waste of my money. Looking back on it, I would not do it again. For a few years it got me a discount on my instructor's insurance, but they don't even do that for BHS certification anymore. And I learned tons more from just taking lessons from top trainers such as Jimmy Wofford or Ralph Hill.
                          http://www.MyVirtualEventingCoach.com

                          Comment


                            #14
                            ICP

                            Barnrat... Just so you know, I personally know (3 off the top of my head), ICP instructors that constantly have riders on the "watch list". Please don't think just because they are ICP certified it means they know what they are doing in the "real world of eventing". It simply is not true! I'm not saying that there are not good ICP instructors....I'm sure there are but unfortunately this program has many holes in it and people are slipping through that should not be certified just because they can memorize something for a day.

                            I too went through the BHS program for Instructor Certification in England, took 10 exams and got up through my BHSII. Although their program is far more intensive about developing the knowledge of a well-rounded trainer, it is not what has made me a good teacher. It is just like what lstevenson has said, you find one of the greats and you spend as many years possible with them, learning EVERYTHING. Yes, this is a sacrifice and yes, it takes years to accomplish but I think it is the only way we are going to have good trainers in the future. There are only a few of the great ones left and unless we have this younger generation start to learn about time and sacrifice to really educate themselves, eventing will continue to slide down that slippery slope we have seen in recent years. It will not be done through the ICP program.
                            http://www.three-dayfarm.com

                            Comment


                              #15
                              Wow, yes, not fair to see people wasting their money training with someone who is not capable of producing the desired results. If only there was some other way an upper-level aspirant could identify competent trainers.... like, if only there were competitions where they could watch those trainers' students compete, or some organization that kept track of results that they could look up, especially on the internet.....

                              Certification is only ONE indicator of a baseline standard of quality.... as has been pointed out, some certified trainers produce riders on the watch list with considerable regularity. People really need to not expect a third party to exercise due diligence for them! I consider it part of "the game" to identify and acquire the right "help".... so it is no more not fair for a rider to waste their parents' money on the wrong trainer than it is for them to have a horse go lame a week before the event because they overdid their conditioning work. (I'm sure we could find some who would like to have it declared unfair to be backed by parents' deep pockets.....!)

                              Jennifer
                              Third Charm Event Team

                              Comment


                                #16
                                There's a happy medium somewhere

                                Originally posted by lstevenson View Post
                                In fact the instructors who can teach the "whys" because they went through a cookie cutter program are more limited, because they are only repeating what they've been told. Book knowledge is very different than having the skill to break things down and figure out the "whys". The instructor who has the ability to figure it out instead of simply memorizing it, is going to be a lot more successful at this game.
                                Yes, precisely. As usual, with all your posts on this thread, you hit the nail on the head.

                                Does the ICP process offer benefits? Yes, certainly, both in terms of instruction theory and tangible rewards for gaining certification. One can always learn from a new situation and new trainers.

                                Are there good, effective, safe ICP instructors and bad, ineffective, watch-list quality ICP instructors? Yes, there are a plethora of both, just like outside of ICP.

                                Is the program accepting of training principles, techniques, and approaches other than the apparent set style? Well, it depends on who you ask and who one's ICP faculty are, but it can be vaguely addressed by saying that one particular group's style is strongly, vehemently supported and promoted. There's absolutely nothing wrong with that, but perhaps this should be made more transparent to the public, or other theories and ideas possibly discussed as alternatives. (Afterall, eventing is [was?] the true test of horsemanship, horse, and rider-- there is no one correct way for anything.)

                                Does ICP provide a baseline level of standardization? Yup, it does. However, the principles and ideas of this "standard" are not necessarily acceptable levels across the board. Many individuals believe that a much greater level of intrinsic knowledge, understanding, and comprehension should be expected of the ICP instructors than is currently required.

                                As I understand at this time, ICP workshops are conducted by showing candidate instructors how to instruct via steps of "teaching by exception," rather than teaching by fundamental theories and correct progression. For those who are unfamiliar with the process of ICP workshops, candidate instructors are taught to look at a rider/horse combination and assess the weaknesses and problems. With a three-minute observation period and twenty-minute instruction period, the candidate instructor is expected to pick out exercises to immediately fix and remedy the apparent problems. If the candidate instructor is able to pull enough tricks to make things look better (sometimes on the surface, sometimes actually helping), then he/she is praised. If tricks cannot be pulled out of the bag fast enough, or the instructor focuses on exercises to promote foundational training rather than surface quick-fixes, then he/she will likely receive negative feedback. In short, a quick fix is expected to be seen-- 20 minutes is barely a thorough warm-up with some horse/rider combinations-- and as such, quick-fix tricks are used. And thus, down the line, quick fixes may be (directly or indirectly) supported and rewarded.

                                Yes, there are certainly times when the little adjustments can help a rider and horse: "shorten your reins and stirrups," "gallop position here, 'C' position here," "sell the OTTB and buy a mule" [just joking], etc. However, this is not teaching, this is not training, and this is not promoting the fundamental elements of the sport. As has been discussed ad nauseam on this board, in conjunction with the lifestyle and veritable passion of eventing facing a demise, the true art of horsemanship has simultaneously spiraled down the drain. Unfortunately, it occasionally appears that the grid and dynamics of certain programs are seemingly promoting the downward fall.

                                In theory, the ICP program is a wonderful idea, and it currently has many beneficial components. With the right structure, a greater expectation of each instructor's knowledge/theory and true understanding of "why" and "how," as well as the incorporation of greater principles that support true teaching and appropriate training, it could potentially be an incredible benefit for USEA members and eventing enthusiasts.

                                For those who are looking for quality reading in the midst of winter havoc, or post-competition jacuzzi time, I highly recommend purchasing the book "Teaching Genius" by Barbara Lourie Sand. It is a fascinating biography and story that indirectly discusses and details the qualities that make a true teacher the best communicator, educator, and consummate professional that one can be.
                                www.glenbaer.com

                                Comment


                                  #17
                                  also from a student's point of view...

                                  I train with a non-ICP instructor who is wonderful.

                                  If I was new to an area I might look on the website for someone who was ICP certified. To me, that would mean that they are serious enough about the sport to seek out more education and training.

                                  On a side note: I went to an ICP workshop and was a demo rider. The breadth of knowlegde that the intructors had was shocking. There is no way I would have paid money to have some of them teach me, but bravo to them for seeking out a structured way to become a better instructor. Perhaps after the process they might be a decent teacher. Also, check your ego at the door is right. I was just a demo rider and some of the things that were said ruffled MY feathers.

                                  I think when I'm a better rider and teacher, I might consider doing the program. I think that it is a great way to meet other instructors, see the way THEY teach and think (that is always interesting), learn more, and have my teaching style and knowledge put into the fire and refined. If anything, I think I would be supporting the sport. I think that the more ICP certified instructors there are, the stronger our sport will be and the more UNITED we will be in what we, as members of the USEA, believe to be solid horsemanship.
                                  Last edited by mcorbett; Feb. 11, 2010, 11:31 AM.
                                  Hillside Haven Farm
                                  From starting gate to start box!

                                  Comment


                                    #18
                                    NC Eventer, as I predicted, you would hear a lot of criticism about ICP on this board. I would like to know if the people who are ANTI - ICP have been to a seminar or exam or ridden as a demo rider or audited. Just curious. I have NOT had the luck to have time off to attend one and would love to. I have spoken to several who have gone thru the program. And of course taken instruction.

                                    Your original question was along the lines of "if I move, will the certification carry nationwide significance to me as a horseman" and I believe it would, like Third Charm mentioned, it's if nothing else a great marketing tool. But I think it is a good program and very necessary. The very fact that the hunter jumper people are copying it to me means we've set something up in Eventing that is worth keeping. And of course my own experiences with non-ICP and ICP instructors. There are some very busy and very highly thought of non ICP instructors in my area who really do not know how to teach effectively yet they have a ton of riders giving them a lot of money.
                                    Proud & Permanent Student Of The Long Road
                                    Read me: EN (http://eventingnation.com/author/annemarch/) and HJU (http://horsejunkiesunited.com/author/holly-covey/)

                                    Comment


                                      #19
                                      So, okay, I'm kind of comparing this against regular teachers. So teachers go to college and then do a TA stint and take an exam to get state certified. Sounds pretty 'cookie cutter' to me. I mean how can you really teach a teacher to be a good teacher? Well, you can give them tools. Does that make them a good teacher? No. It enables them with correct tool and then they have to have the ability to teach.
                                      I think if you move a lot, the certification is going to show new people that you at least have the proper tools in hand. Then they can assess if you're an idiot or not from there but it does give you a leg up. Also, if you have previous students who have done well. That helps too.
                                      And I'm kinda miffed that folks mention the watch list. It's private but to wave it around on the internet is well, kinda the witch hunt the watch list is trying to avoid. True, there are some really bad trainers with really bad riders. But I just don't like seeing that waved around. Unless a person has been red carded and outed, then I would prefer it be kept close at hand.
                                      Even duct tape can't fix stupid

                                      Comment


                                        #20
                                        Originally posted by Kanga View Post
                                        Barnrat... Just so you know, I personally know (3 off the top of my head), ICP instructors that constantly have riders on the "watch list".
                                        Not sure I understand.

                                        According to the USEF Eventing Technical Committee as discussed at the USEA annual meeting, the Watch List has no names on it.

                                        The Watch List: Dormant, But Effective
                                        even though there's no one on it

                                        Comment

                                        Working...
                                        X