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Ammie Rule Violation - Frustrated

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  • Ammie Rule Violation - Frustrated

    I am frustrated as heck by this and had to vent somewhere.

    I know of a rider who is a professional according to the rules (has a job where she is paid and part of that job is riding horses) who is competing as an amateur. She competed as an ammie all of this year and won year end awards regionally and nationally as an amateur.

    (I do not event and I do not live in this rider's region, and I don't know a soul who competed against her, so this has nothing to do with sour grapes about ribbons or placings.)

    She has been informed by friends that she is in violation and she reacts with anger and denial. She claims she is no longer riding as part of her job (unlikely, since her family owned business involves her riding horses in their care) and thus plans to compete as an ammie in 2010 - in spite of not waiting the required 1 year to go from pro to ammie, since she doesn't believe she violated the rule to begin with.

    This is such an affront to sportsmanship and the spirit in which we all compete. I am disgusted by this person and really wish that I could offer any proof, but short of finding the farm she worked at (difficult for me to do without potentially ruining friendships) and convincing them to cooperate with a USEF investigation, I've done all that I can.

    I'm frustrated with the situation and dismayed. I wish that her own friends, who have direct knowledge of the situation and who could offer proof, would stand up to her and report her. I could not be friends with someone who treated a sport I love like dirt.

  • #2
    Why don't you report her? Otherwise, it really is just gossip/sour grapes.
    Blugal

    You never know what kind of obsessive compulsive crazy person you are until another person imitates your behaviour at a three-day. --Gry2Yng

    Comment


    • #3
      If it bothers you enough, report it.

      Have the courage of your convictions, don't be a sheeple.

      Or forget about it.

      Comment


      • #4
        Just to clarify, I did report it to USEA, they contacted the rider, and she denied it (or rather, told the USEA she was in compliance with the rule).

        I would happily spend the $200 to file an official report, but I have no way of providing proof. It would be my word against the rider's. And in that case, I don't blame the USEF for finding in favor of the rider. They should be innocent until proven guilty.

        It is just a frustrating situation.

        Comment


        • #5
          Just a thought

          Can you or someone you know have her ride a horse? Then pay by check, for extra proof video the ride.

          Comment


          • #6
            I hear you. I work a minimum of a 45 hour workweek, so it's really frustrating to have spent a year competing against someone in the ammies only to have them tell me the following year that their job is riding but they get paid "under the table," only in cash so they can compete as an amateur. I too don't have proof nor do I have a spare $200 to report it, but it really annoys the hell out of me when she's competing in a local children/adult class and beating 10 year old kids. It's an offense to sport.
            ---
            They're small hearts.

            Comment


            • #7
              I hear you, too, and I'm on the other side. I have one or two little things that keep me from retaining my amateur card so I have given it up to avoid a complaint. But the associations work slowly, and I was still listed as an Amateur for points last year. I feel like an ammy, I ride like an ammy but technically, since they changed the $2,500 rule, I don't comply. I work a full time job doing a non horsey thing. In all honesty a lot of people who do a lot more than me are still amateurs. It is a poor rule and badly enforced. They say if the website reveals any promotion that would be a violation - does this person's family horse business have a website and is she on it?
              Proud & Permanent Student Of The Long Road
              Read me: EN (http://eventingnation.com/author/annemarch/) and HJU (http://horsejunkiesunited.com/author/holly-covey/)

              Comment


              • #8
                It's not that hard to get the status changed, I just did it myself. Fax a letter to the USEF and call the USEA.

                Nancy
                www.canterusa.org

                Comment


                • #9
                  ditto to what everyone has said.

                  to change from pro to am you have to send in 50 bucks and a few documents. I was in the process of doing it back in 2008 and in the middle of the process something came up and I had to stay pro.
                  I lost the 50 bucks too. lol. sucked.
                  I looked at it as my annual donation.

                  To change from am to pro all do you is check the box on your registration for the year (both USEF and USEA).
                  http://kaboomeventing.com/
                  http://kaboomeventing.blogspot.com/
                  Horses are amazing athletes and make no mistake -- they are the stars of the show!

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    I am sure this has been discussed before, but I really don't understand the ammy/pro rules. What if someone is a working student (no paid) for a BNT and they "get" to ride some really nice upper level or experienced horses as part of their non paid job. This gives them an advantage over someone else. And I can't believe that someone who teaches little kids to post the trot and collects money can actually be considered a pro and has to compete in the open divisions against people who are considered trainers and produce upper level horses and riders.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Atigirl View Post
                      . And I can't believe that someone who teaches little kids to post the trot and collects money can actually be considered a pro and has to compete in the open divisions against people who are considered trainers and produce upper level horses and riders.
                      Amateur status has NOTHING to do with riding/training ability.
                      Janet

                      chief feeder and mucker for Music, Spy, Belle and Tiara. Someone else is now feeding and mucking for Chief and Brain (both foxhunting now).

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        To the OP, I feel your pain. There's someone in my area who has lovely horses and does very well with them - but also runs a boarding/training business out of her family farm. She seems like a very nice girl - and I had always just sort of assumed she was a pro - but was surprised to see her name on the year-end ammy leaderboards! - and is still listed as an ammy for 2010. If she continues to show in the ammy divisions this season, and I can scrape up the $200, I'd consider reporting it...it's nothing personal, but I just don't think it's fair! I'm another one of those adult riders who works a more-than-full-time non-horsey job to support my riding habit...

                        she's got a website for her business, so it wouldn't be too hard to prove
                        ~Drafties Clique~Sprite's Mom~ASB-loving eventer~
                        www.gianthorse.photoreflect.com ~ http://photobucket.com/albums/v692/tarheelmd07/

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Atigirl View Post
                          I am sure this has been discussed before, but I really don't understand the ammy/pro rules. What if someone is a working student (no paid) for a BNT and they "get" to ride some really nice upper level or experienced horses as part of their non paid job. This gives them an advantage over someone else. And I can't believe that someone who teaches little kids to post the trot and collects money can actually be considered a pro and has to compete in the open divisions against people who are considered trainers and produce upper level horses and riders.
                          There are some super great ammies out there who could kick a lot of the Pro's butts! And those Ammies still have to compete against the other not so talented ammies.. is that fair? Yep. Deal with it or find a new sport. Im pretty content about being called pro even though I am 19 and have yet to take my horse to a recognized competition. I like getting paid to work with some horses and give beginner lessons and I like some of the looks I get when I tell people i am a pro (of course I then explain exactly what that means and they just laugh at me!)
                          *Paige*
                          ~*It's not about the ribbons, but about the ride behind it"
                          R.I.P. Teddy O'Connor

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            To the OP -
                            Hearing you're not an eventer makes me want to double check - you do understand that many events do not offer Ammy divisions, and our Rider divisions are not limited to amateurs??.

                            Around me most events separate out by Open, Horse, and Rider divisions. Pros may be eligible for all of these divisions - a very good dressage rider who has never evented could legally enter BNR. An eventer who ran Intermediate years ago but hasn't gone over Novice in years could enter Novice Rider - even if she is completely a pro, coaching Training level riders...

                            Our rules for who is amateur and who is pro are the same as in other english disciplines, but our divisions are different, so that *could* be causing confusion here. Or you could be seeing someone cheat, for sure!
                            http://wildwoodfarmnc.com

                            http://cantersgutenberg.wordpress.co...g-quiet-goose/

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Jeannette, formerly ponygyrl View Post
                              To the OP -
                              Hearing you're not an eventer makes me want to double check - you do understand that many events do not offer Ammy divisions, and our Rider divisions are not limited to amateurs??.

                              Around me most events separate out by Open, Horse, and Rider divisions. Pros may be eligible for all of these divisions - a very good dressage rider who has never evented could legally enter BNR. An eventer who ran Intermediate years ago but hasn't gone over Novice in years could enter Novice Rider - even if she is completely a pro, coaching Training level riders...

                              Our rules for who is amateur and who is pro are the same as in other english disciplines, but our divisions are different, so that *could* be causing confusion here. Or you could be seeing someone cheat, for sure!
                              I agree with this whole heartedly. As a lower level "Rider" entrant for many years, I couldn't care less about "amateur" status as defined by USEF. I am clearly an ammie by definition, but I like the "Rider/Horse/Open" class organization that Eventing uses much better (actually, these split classes are *fairly* new -- it used to be one class per level....period).

                              It is a clear, fairly impartial way of dividing classes so people with similar qualifications compete against each other. That being said, I am always prepared that there may be only ONE class per level and it could be me against the pros on green horses or, even worse, kids on ponies. I *might* beat a pro on a really green horse but those kids on ponies kick my a$$ every single time! But, I would have no problem riding against pros (or those darn kids on ponies) because eventing really is about competing against yourself and frankly, winning a ribbon because better competitors are restricted from competing against me isn't all that rewarding.

                              Amateur status has really only become a part of eventing with the introduction of the AEC's and year end awards, which are such a small part of the sport. I actually hate going over to straight dressage and having to worry about "Amateur Cards" or avidavits. Eventing would be ruined to me if we all ran around accusing each other of violating ammy rules like what happens in other disciplines.

                              Let's just ride and have some fun instead! ... and you kids on those darling little ponies -- look out .... this might just be my year!!
                              Last edited by SevenDogs; Jan. 22, 2010, 04:47 PM.

                              Comment


                              • #16
                                The OP did say she won amateur year end awards so amateur is significant. And you do know that even if you ride in an open division they figure it out so you can get amateur points. I agree that the rule stinks. Wouldn't it be nice if you could somehow magically base it on skill. but it's not. So right now all we have is the fairness issue. Someone at my barn wanted me to ride her horse because she was away-sure. Then she wanted to give me 25 bucks, being the rule stickler that I am I said no, twouldn't be fair. So there you have it, take the 25 I'm a pro, since not I'm an ammy. Still rode the horse didn't change my skill level at all. The girl the OP is calling into question gets both and that bugs me as well.

                                Comment


                                • #17
                                  I think that if it is a big a deal as you state her fellow competitors will sort it out in short order. She is out competing and winning - not hiding under a rock after all. I'd stop worrying about it, it doesn't affect you and it doesn't involve you. After all you've done as much as you can.

                                  Winning puts the spot light on you, the truth can't hide for long.

                                  Comment


                                  • #18
                                    I guess I just find "year end awards" (particularly at the lower levels where this would most likely be an issue) a pretty insignificant part of the sport. Nice... yes, but not worth running around accusing others of violating ammy rules.

                                    I frankly wish eventing never even opened the whole "Amateur" can of worms to begin with. Again, it only came about because of the AEC's and a desire to create more "awards", which, in my opinion, were not needed.

                                    Comment


                                    • #19
                                      I still think the coolest thing about eventing is that, on any given weekend, I can go ride against David or Karen or Kim or Amy or whomever. Obviously, I don't have a snowball's chance in Hades of beating them, but that's kinda like pitching against Babe Ruth (showing my age). Wow. And I don't like the amateur distinctions. I'm a pro, and can't ride worth shit.

                                      Comment


                                      • #20
                                        Originally posted by tarheelmd07 View Post
                                        There's someone in my area who has lovely horses and does very well with them - but also runs a boarding/training business out of her family farm.
                                        Just to clarify, accepting remuneration for boarding services does not effect your amateur status. The training is the problem.

                                        From GR808: (The amateur rule)
                                        2. The following activities do not affect the amateur status of a person who is otherwise qualified: a. The writing of books or articles pertaining to horses. b. Accepting remuneration for officiating as a judge, steward, technical delegate, course designer, announcer or participating as a TV commentator, or accepting bona fide remuneration for services as a veterinarian, groom, farrier, tack shop operator or breeder, or for accepting bona fide remuneration for boarding services.

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