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William Micklem says WILL WE FACE FACTS REGARDING DRESSAGE AND JUMPING

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  • William Micklem says WILL WE FACE FACTS REGARDING DRESSAGE AND JUMPING

    "William Micklem says WILL WE FACE FACTS REGARDING DRESSAGE AND JUMPING" in his blog that he posted today.

    http://www.barnmice.com/profiles/blo...m-says-will-we

  • #2
    Wow. Wow. Everybody please go read this. A Happy New Year from Mr. Micklem, indeed.

    Anyone know who he's talking about in his tales of dressage/SJ training contributing to fatalities?

    First example:

    There was a very talented but somewhat wild cross country horse at CCI *** that was bought to be ridden by an experienced advanced rider. The one main task in order to fulfil this horse’s potential was to ‘fix the dressage’. So an international Grand Prix rider and trainer was engaged to fix the dressage and unfortunately the result was rows and resistance. After a short period of time the horse learnt to fight the forced shape he was being put in, thrusting his head up and running blind towards the corner of the school. Not long after this, when going across country, the rider asked the horse to slow down in front of a fence. The horse switched straight away to his head in the air running blind mode, and literally ran into the next fence. He fell on top of the rider who was killed on impact.
    Second example:
    Sadly once again I can give a specific example of another fatality for which this was a contributory factor. The rider in question was an amateur, with a suitable horse who in the past was successful across country, taking care of the rider and having a good fifth leg. The rider had ambitions to compete at CCI ** level and took the preparation seriously. To this end a series of lessons were taken with two international coaches…one from dressage and one from show jumping…but without any communication between coaches. The dressage coach concentrated on submission and the show jumping coach concentrated on grids, related distances and even stride patterns, and the rider became more dominant and did less cross country work.
    Just curious -- and want to be sure these are real-life example and not composites.

    Comment

    • Original Poster

      #3
      I believe they are real-life stories and not composites, because in a number of past posts he has mentioned a very good friend of his who was killed on course.

      Comment


      • #4
        Didn't a certain Jim Wofford cover these points not too long ago?
        one oak, lots of canyons

        http://horsesportnews.wordpress.com/

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by canyonoak View Post
          Didn't a certain Jim Wofford cover these points not too long ago?
          Yes he did.

          Comment


          • #6
            Interesting where he quotes Le Goff and not training at Prix St. George or above.

            Does anyone remember Ralph's Le Goff story about that? I think it had to do with Le Goff training one of his best event horses to upper level dressage, only to find out that he was never the same cross country.

            Comment


            • #7
              Doesn't Ingrid Klimke say the same thing? She ought to know as she rides both GP dressage and event dressage.
              "I'm a lumberjack, and I'm okay."
              Thread killer Extraordinaire

              Comment


              • #8
                Wofford and Le Goff said similar things but they didn't cite fatal accidents as proof of their theories.

                Le Goff said his horses, when trained to higher dressage movements, lost their ability to think for themselves. Wofford repeated this. As has Lucinda Green.

                But IMO, Micklem has taken this to a more serious level.

                Comment


                • #9
                  I have read his post and I am still not convinced - Charisma was trained to Prix St George and look at what he achieved. Ringwood Cockatoo competed at Prix St George and won 10 x 3* and did well at 4*. Some riders just seem to get the best out of a horse in the dressage and then they make cross country look easy as well - Dutton, Fox Pitt, Fredericks, Hoy etc

                  Lucinda Green has never had dressage as her strong point and I think though she is a wonderful xc rider I think she has been overtaken by the current generation who are exceptional at all 3 phases.

                  I do not see how WM expressing this opinion will change anything as the current pros have great dressage and jump xc well. Grassroots riders simply do not have their horses trained to that high a level of dressage and rely on their horse to help them out. I am not really sure where his ideas are going and how they help anyone constructively.
                  The only place where success comes before work is in the dictionary.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    I saw more where Micklem stated that improper training can cause fatalities. In the first example, he stated that the horse was given improper/to aggressive training.

                    So an international Grand Prix rider and trainer was engaged to fix the dressage and unfortunately the result was rows and resistance. After a short period of time the horse learnt to fight the forced shape he was being put in, thrusting his head up and running blind towards the corner of the school.
                    Notice he states FORCED shape. A properly trained dressage horse does not feel forced, but feels that he does what the rider requests because he wants to. He goes on to discuss the differences between acceptance and submission.

                    We need joyful, easy dressage with an absence of forced, over regimented, mechanical work.
                    In the second example, it is less clear that it is a dressage issue and seems more an issue of not training in one of the three phases. The rider is said to have taken stadium jumping and dressage lessons and did not take any cross country lessons.

                    The dressage coach concentrated on submission and the show jumping coach concentrated on grids, related distances and even stride patterns, and the rider became more dominant and did less cross country work.
                    This seems more of a case of lack of communication between coaches and the rider not being as aware of the necessity to practice all three phases.

                    He was given less freedom to make decisions and consequently jumped with decreasing confidence and involvement as the rider made mistakes, while the rider in consequence started riding more strongly because of the lack of confidence

                    He DOES NOT state that higher levels of dressage are an issue, but that incorrect dressage training and overemphasis on one phase, leaving one or more phases unpracticed, is an issues.

                    ….and certainly anything said by Jack le Goff should be listened to because he was an outstanding coach. However in itself I cannot see that this level of dressage is harmful IF the training is done with good steady progression and real partnership, and IF it is part of an overall strategy and programme that allows sufficient time for all aspects of an integrated training programme.
                    I completely agree with this. I think the increased emphasis on dressage is causing some riders and trainers to work to much on dressage, force their horse into a frame instead of working on properly building muscle and having the horse accept and want to be in the 'shape', using the muscles to create the movements the rider requests the horse to make.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by mugsgame View Post
                      I have read his post and I am still not convinced - Charisma was trained to Prix St George and look at what he achieved. Ringwood Cockatoo competed at Prix St George and won 10 x 3* and did well at 4*. Some riders just seem to get the best out of a horse in the dress
                      1992 gold medal winner Kibah Tic Toc was schooled GP movements with Matt Ryan and his GP dressage rider brother Heath Ryan.

                      I guess the conclusion is some horses respond well to it others don't. Horses are not one size fits all... imagine that, who'da thunk it.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by mugsgame View Post
                        I have read his post and I am still not convinced - Charisma was trained to Prix St George and look at what he achieved. Ringwood Cockatoo competed at Prix St George and won 10 x 3* and did well at 4*. Some riders just seem to get the best out of a horse in the dressage and then they make cross country look easy as well - Dutton, Fox Pitt, Fredericks, Hoy etc

                        Lucinda Green has never had dressage as her strong point and I think though she is a wonderful xc rider I think she has been overtaken by the current generation who are exceptional at all 3 phases.

                        I do not see how WM expressing this opinion will change anything as the current pros have great dressage and jump xc well. Grassroots riders simply do not have their horses trained to that high a level of dressage and rely on their horse to help them out. I am not really sure where his ideas are going and how they help anyone constructively.
                        You may want to go back and read for content re: the Prix St. George comment. His point wasn't that high level of dressage is detremential to jumping. It was that domineering training to get to Prix St. George is detremental. In fact, he even mentions Mark Todd and Charisma and the fact that that horse did PSG along with WFP and Philip as riders who get the best out of their horses with the "holistic" approach to training he's talking about.

                        I thought the article was brilliant and I feel rather gratified to see things I always say come from someone like William Micklem!
                        Amanda

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Upper Level Dressage

                          Let's not forget Wily Trout (with Christopher Bartle) was a Grand Prix Dressage Horse (represented GB in 1984 Olympics) and also was an Advanced 3-Day Horse. It all depends if correct Dressage is being done or "forced into a frame Dressage is being done". There are many upper level riders out there that do the latter, so don't be fooled by people that call themselves upper level riders. It does not mean the horses are always being trained correctly in a classical manner if they are 4* riders.

                          I think this very much is a depends on the horse thing and depends on the true correctness of the training.
                          http://www.three-dayfarm.com

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            seeking acceptance not submission

                            Submission is a necessary component of dressage. It does not mean forcing the horse to do anything. Unfortunately it has become a four lettered word in the horse world and will continue to do so if people perpetuate the myth that it means being forceful.

                            Having said that, I understand his point, even if I don't agree w/his verbage - in order to perform a high level dressage test, if for no other reason than that the movements come very quickly - the horse needs to stop thinking for himself and to allow the rider to do so for him instead. *Willful* submission is a beautiful thing. But a horse who is jumping - even in the arena - needs to think for himself because the human on his back will make mistakes. He needs to know he can save himself and will not be punished for making decisions.. sometimes the horse who runs out or refuses has just saved your butt.
                            "Kindness is free" ~ Eurofoal
                            ---
                            The CoTH CYA - please consult w/your veterinarian under any and all circumstances.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Posted by EqTrainer:

                              Submission is a necessary component of dressage.
                              I'm sorry, but where does this nonsense come from?

                              "The horse should be obedient, but NEVER submissive. There is a huge difference between submission and obedience.

                              That is one of the prime objectives of the dressage. This was in the tests given in the 1980's. I should still have them, but they are in a poor storage place in my barn, so they may have been chewed up by bugs or the like. I will try to find them.

                              It also states one of the other prime objectives is "Harmony between horse and rider".

                              Comment


                              • #16
                                Originally posted by Kanga View Post
                                Let's not forget Wily Trout (with Christopher Bartle) was a Grand Prix Dressage Horse (represented GB in 1984 Olympics) and also was an Advanced 3-Day Horse.

                                Wily Trout became a Grand Prix dressage horse after he stopped eventing.
                                http://www.MyVirtualEventingCoach.com

                                Comment


                                • #17
                                  Originally posted by BaroquePony View Post
                                  "The horse should be obedient, but NEVER submissive. There is a huge difference between submission and obedience.

                                  Uh?? Submission is one of the collective marks. It is definitely required in dressage.
                                  http://www.MyVirtualEventingCoach.com

                                  Comment


                                  • #18
                                    Posted by lstevenson:

                                    Uh?? Submission is one of the collective marks. It is definitely required in dressage.
                                    Perhaps from the newer tests ... in the same time frame as the "happy horse" stuff with the FEI rules or something like that?

                                    Comment


                                    • #19
                                      It's always been in the collective marks.
                                      http://www.MyVirtualEventingCoach.com

                                      Comment


                                      • #20
                                        I have to go out to the barn for a few minutes ... I may be able to find the tests quickly if they are in the cabinet I think (hope) they are in ... otherwise I am not sure where else I may have put them. I will check.

                                        If submission is in the collective remarks then I believe that it will be in contradiction to the "objectives" that are listed at the top of the test(s).

                                        Comment

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