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TB pedigree question from a dummy

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  • TB pedigree question from a dummy

    Ok...following some of these pedigree threads...and have some stupid questions that I should know the answer. I tried to search and can't find the answer.

    If you say "tail female" line...what do you mean? I think it means following the very bottom..dam to dam to dam...but not certain.

    How do you figure out the female numbers for a horse? Is this easy or am I just dumb like that! and are they at all helpful for predictors in sport?

    I'm trying to do some figuring on my current project's pedigree. He is not breed like most of my others horses...who are mostly turf bred (but I like him anyway) He looks a lot like his dam's sire...so I'm thinking he takes after that side of the family more (FWIW...he's a super mover and jumper...and just plain easy to deal with and ride).

    Just trying to learn how to read the pedigree better....and trying to learn what traits I'm seeing in this horse might be associated with certain lines...since he has a lot of lines with which I'm less familar. I want a mare like him!

    http://www.pedigreequery.com/loveton
    ** Tact is the ability to tell someone to go to hell in such a way that they look forward to the trip. ~Winston Churchill? **

  • #2
    You're right about tail female line, just keep following the dams down the bottom of the pedigree. To get the number you can either keep going back on pedigreequery, and eventually you'll get back to the family number. Or you can go to his dam's page and do the progeny search, and the listing of her foals will have their female family listed to the far right. Yours is 5-f. You can probably look it up on tbheritage, or vineyridge might have some info.
    "Why would anybody come here if they had a pony? Who leaves a country packed with ponies to come to a non-pony country? It doesn't make sense!"

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    • #3
      From what you've said about him, BF, I'd say it was the Mr. Prospector you might be seeing a good bit of in this good boy!
      I love that close up like he has.
      The Mill Reef and Turn-To don't hurt, either! (Both of which I have found in pedigrees of pretty good event and jump horses.)
      The Sunny's Halo I am not quite as fond of - I did actually see Sunny's Halo race, and while he was very impressive horse and quite professional on the track, but I have seen offspring that were hot.
      From what you say about Loveton I don't think he's hot, so he doesn't seem like that, though.
      Proud & Permanent Student Of The Long Road
      Read me: EN (http://eventingnation.com/author/annemarch/) and HJU (http://horsejunkiesunited.com/author/holly-covey/)

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      • #4
        I am still learning as well so I read all the threads and try to take it in. I am constantly comparing the horses that I have ridden and figuring out how bloodlines relate.

        My older horse is by Private account and he could jump the moon and was a great mover so I like that in the pedigree.

        Halo horses can be difficult but they have that tough attitude that makes them good event horses from my experience. I owned a horse sired by Sunny's Halo and he was a great all around horse who did it all and was good at it.
        http://www.benchmarksporthorses.com/

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        • Original Poster

          #5
          Thanks guys...helpful. Maybe he just looks a bit like sunny's halo then....big white face and white socks...on the refined side.

          But hot he is NOT...at least not most of the time...he is a bit wild when I first get on him at events but that will go away I'm sure. And while he has opinions....he's not difficult.

          Jlee...you could be right on Private accounts....Perhaps it is the sire's dam giving a lot of influence. I've not seen many by his sire before either..but they must be out there.

          He may be a hard one for me to really figure out on the pedigree since he has so little line breeding (I think).

          I'm off to read about 5-f female family....thanks Scaramouch
          ** Tact is the ability to tell someone to go to hell in such a way that they look forward to the trip. ~Winston Churchill? **

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          • #6
            I've found that bloodlines.net here:
            http://bloodlines.net/TB/Families/FamilyNumbers.htm
            is better for family numbers than tbheritage.

            5-f is the family of Native Dancer and Grey Flight. The truly great branch of that family derives from Young Hag.
            "I'm a lumberjack, and I'm okay."
            Thread killer Extraordinaire

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            • #7
              Both Captain Courageous and Druilly stood in Washington state, so this part of the female family was probably located there. I knew a CC at one point, he was a sweetheart horse, medium bay horse, nicely put together. I only knew him as a racehorse, but he was the type who would have done his best for you if asked in any discipline. Quite a few Druillys around here years ago too, I never worked with one myself. Likely a few of the offspring of both of these stallions filtered into the sport disciplines in the Pacific Northwest.

              Our Emblem is the sire of War Emblem, who did so well in the big 3 races a few years ago. We have one racing locally who runs stake races successfully.
              www.cordovafarm.weebly.com

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              • #8
                OK, so i hear subk and viney say that they look for the triple threat: lines to Matchem, Herod and Eclipse in the 5th because many UL horses have been triple threat horses. I'm trying to figure out how to do that. I guess I need to memorize their lines? Is there an easier way? Which lines do you look for for each stallion?
                Hillside Haven Farm
                From starting gate to start box!

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                • #9
                  You don't need to go all the way back. There are some stallions who will stand out. 95% of all sire lines today trace to Eclipse in the first five generations. Matchems are Hastings/Fair Play/Man O'War/Discovery/Ladder in the US branch; the British branch is mostly Barcaldine/Marco/Marcovil/Hurry On/Precipitation. Today, you will find Herod primarily through the Dollar line (Upas/Ksar/Tourbillon/Djebel) and through the Le Sancy line which may be dead today (Roi Herode, The Tetrarch). If at all possible, you want to find a sire line to Matchem and Herod in the first five generations for males, and as sire line for mares in the fifth. Or as I like to say 5 + 1 for mares. And the more balance among all three lines, the better the horse is likely to be. JMHO.

                  More modern MOW stallions are Relic and War Relic (the Intentionally line in racing today). More modern Marcos are Sheshoon and Sassafras. My Babu and Ambiorix are Herod line, and both have Lavendula in the tail female line.
                  "I'm a lumberjack, and I'm okay."
                  Thread killer Extraordinaire

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                  • #10
                    Honestly, I tend to take Mr. P with a grain of salt--he's EVERYWHERE, as is Raise a Native (and too much RaN is suspected in causing the rash of bad ankles in modern racers.) But this is the kind of pedigree I like--old blood up close and NO inbreeding, especially to RaN, Native Dancer, etc. All the nice names without doubling up on them.

                    And for curiosity, I just followed my two (new OTTB and late OTTB) back alogn their tail female lines...Lucky traces to Family 14, while Benny went to family 8c.
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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by mcorbett View Post
                      OK, so i hear subk and viney say that they look for the triple threat: lines to Matchem, Herod and Eclipse in the 5th because many UL horses have been triple threat horses. I'm trying to figure out how to do that. I guess I need to memorize their lines? Is there an easier way? Which lines do you look for for each stallion?
                      All right the "Triple Threat" is what I jokingly call Viney's concept that top sport horses very often have sire lines coming out of the 5th that represent tail male lines to all three of the existing sire lines:
                      Eclispe (which is the vast majority of today's sire lines)
                      Matchem (Man O'War, Discovery, Fair Play, Marco) and
                      Herod (Ksar/Tourbillion/My Babu, The Tetrarch, Upas/Dollar.)

                      If you want to see what the sire line is of a horse in the 5th go to pedigree inquiry click on the horse and you can follow the sire line all the way back to one of the big three I listed above just lookiing at the names at the top of the graph. After you do this a bunch you start recognizing the horses in Matchem and Herod because there just are not that many lines.

                      What I do now, is click on each horse in the 3rd then look at four the sire lines now in the second at the same time. Usually that tells me everything I need to know and if not I explore the sire line I don't know.

                      If you want to understand more about different sire lines for sport, the first place I'd start is with Dr. Birdsall who wrote a series of 8 columns one on each of the the major sire lines for sport. Those sire lines are Blenheim II, Teddy, Dark Ronald, The French Dollar line, The French Grey line, Marco, Rock Sand and Nearco. (You can find them on a google search.)

                      Now looking at bfne's horse Loveton who pedigree is in the OP. Looking at the horse's in the 5th:
                      Geisha (Mathem thru Discovery)
                      Lady Glory (Matchem thru Man O'War)
                      Kerala (Herod thru Tourbillon)
                      Wavy Navy (Matchem thru Man O'War)
                      Daumier (Matchem thru Hurry On/Marco)

                      That's four lines to Matchem, one to Herod. Five non Eclispe lines is a lot to find in a US OTTB.

                      Now look at some of the sires we like to see in eventers: Never Bend, Hoist the Flag, Damascus, In Reality, Buckpasser, Bold Ruler and check out their Matchem or Herod lines.

                      ETA: I wrote this before I saw Viney's response--so it's a little redundant. Just remember, Viney's the one who actually knows what she's doing, I'm just piddling.

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                      • #12
                        One TB line that I'm beginning to notice in a lot of sport horse pedigrees through his daughters is Dark Star. I always thought he was sort of a fluke because he won the Ky Derby over Native Dancer in Native Dancer's great year, but he is a very good line to find through his daughters.

                        Would also point out that Turn-To is also a grandson of Lavendula.
                        "I'm a lumberjack, and I'm okay."
                        Thread killer Extraordinaire

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                        • Original Poster

                          #13
                          Originally posted by vineyridge View Post
                          If at all possible, you want to find a sire line to Matchem and Herod in the first five generations for males, and as sire line for mares in the fifth. Or as I like to say 5 + 1 for mares. And the more balance among all three lines, the better the horse is likely to be. JMHO.

                          OK...this part I don't follow as well but I think I get it...may need more coffee. Can you explain a bit more?

                          Now you've got me looking at my broodmare more closely....

                          http://www.pedigreequery.com/charm18

                          If I did it right...I think she meets your test and I know you've told me that before but I think I'm actually just now understanding what you were looking at. I need to look at more pedigrees in this way to see if she is different or not. I find for her male sire lines in the first 5 generations 2 to Herod and 1 to Matchem.

                          For her female sire lines in the first 5 generations...I'm seeing 1 Herod and 4 Matchem. Not super balanced but they at least all three seem to be there...and boy your are right about Eclipse....he's everywhere!

                          I think I need to go read the book by Dr. Birdsall. Hope it isn't too hard to find!
                          ** Tact is the ability to tell someone to go to hell in such a way that they look forward to the trip. ~Winston Churchill? **

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                          • #14
                            IMO, one reason Grey Flight is such a good line to have in sport, along with Mahmoud , is that Planetoid's sire was Ariel. The Adana line has produced a very large number of horses who made my Dr. Birdsall, through both sons and daughters, and Ariel has 10 descendants who were successful enough to be found in The Bloodlines.

                            On Charm, I count 3 Herod through Nirgal, Lalun and Tourbillon, and Matchem through all three Discovery daughters, In Reality, and Iltis.
                            "I'm a lumberjack, and I'm okay."
                            Thread killer Extraordinaire

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                            • Original Poster

                              #15
                              Originally posted by vineyridge View Post
                              IMO, one reason Grey Flight is such a good line to have in sport, along with Mahmoud , is that Planetoid's sire was Ariel. The Adana line has produced a very large number of horses who made my Dr. Birdsall, through both sons and daughters, and Ariel has 10 descendants who were successful enough to be found in The Bloodlines.

                              On Charm, I count 3 Herod through Nirgal, Lalun and Tourbillon, and Matchem through all three Discovery daughters, In Reality, and Iltis.

                              Thanks...I think I did it right then...I got 3 Herod and 5 Matchem as well. Yes Charm has quiet a bit a Mahmoud in there doesn't she and love that Grey Flight is in there on the first page....

                              Grey Flight is in Loveton's pedigree as well but off the first page on the dam side (through Bold Princess who was a full sister to What a Pleasure) which makes sense and why they are in the same Female family.....boy she must have been a really nice mare........perhaps that is where his good movement is coming from.

                              We will have to see what Charm produces as a brood mare (she's in foal to an E-line hano for this coming spring--lost her first foal)....she herself is a pretty darn nice event horse (just needed a better jockey than me!). Her Half brother (by a Dutch stallion) is looking pretty special as well.


                              Thanks everyone...this thread has been very educational.....need to get back to work and will have to look at more of this tonight!
                              Last edited by bornfreenowexpensive; Dec. 9, 2009, 06:57 PM.
                              ** Tact is the ability to tell someone to go to hell in such a way that they look forward to the trip. ~Winston Churchill? **

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