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Le Samuri Accident Video

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  • #81
    Originally posted by Doodle View Post
    Remind me never to ask you to watch my horse jog!
    Maybe I'm just slow, but what's the connection between me thinking folks are a mite hypocritical and watching your horse jog?

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    • #82
      Originally posted by subk View Post
      Maybe I'm just slow, but what's the connection between me thinking folks are a mite hypocritical and watching your horse jog?
      sorry maybe I quoted the wrong person. my point was that we, as horsepeople, should be able to tell - even from a grainy video, that the horse was clearly broken down.

      Comment


      • #83
        Originally posted by claire View Post
        From Equisearch/Nancy Jaffers:

        "Of course, the biggest mishap (though that is far too mild a word to describe it) is the situation involving the leader after dressage, Amy Tryon. Some have asked why Amy didn't pull up Le Samurai when he started to limp before the last fence on cross-country. Her husband, Greg, told me she didn't know what was going on. She thought perhaps he had caught a clip on his shoe, and when he seemed to recover and sighted in on the last jump, she didn't want to stop him and risk a crash. As soon as he cleared the fence, she leaped off."

        I've watched the video a couple times now. That was not a horse that was "locked on" to a fence. She was pushing him every step of the way. And for those who say he wasn't "that lame"...he was lame and it's obvious even from the grainy bouncy footage that he was very, very lame. Pull the poor horse up and save him for another day.

        Also, if she was concerned with a crash why didn't she just turn him away from the fence and go past it? I wasn't there so I'm not sure, but generally, there is room between the fence and the ropes to go by a fence. It's not real clear from the footage if that would have been an option.
        http://community.webshots.com/user/sophiegirl23

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        • #84
          InVA I am not defending Amy or saying that she didn't make an error in judgement--I don't think anyone is saying that in hindsight she didn't make a bad call. I just disagree that this is the proper time, place or jury for a lynching.

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          • #85
            It's awful hard to come to a conclusion without having witnessed the incident.
            What is there to come to a conclusion about?
            Whether or not another person will jump on the bandwagon and berate her? What kind of judgement to pass? Who you should talk about this with next? I've seen a lot less concern for the horse on this thread than I have about the rider. I direct this question to everyone, not only the original poster... But perhaps this is a moot point and rhetorical question.

            Originally posted by Bossanova View Post
            Do any of you have any idea how painful rupturing your ligaments is? It's not like cutting yourself or pulling a muscle, it's excrutiating.
            And this is where you are sorely mistaken....
            Tearing ligaments hurts for the moment it occurs and briefly afterward, at which point you feel nothing because you have severed all the nerves. Sure, your joints can feel wonky as all get out (I've torn 3 ACLS and 1 ankle and work in orthopaedic sports medicine) because they're structurally and functionally unstable, but they don't, per se, hurt. A 1200+/- pound horse galloping is going to feel and exhibit the ill effects, because they're supporting thousands of times their own weight in PSI on that structure. The pain experienced during the subacute phase of ligamentous disruption is most often the result of joint effusion and other soft tissue or bony damage that further disrupt the space by impinging nearby structures. I hope that Sparky is as comfortable as possible during his recovery. It's going to be a long and bumpy road.

            And I urge everyone....
            Take a deep breath, step back from the emotion and the grainy you-tube video. I suggest that you not say anything here that you wouldn't say to Amy's face. Sure, it's easy to lurk behind the anonymity of a public BB and post hurtful, accusatory and inflammatory comments, and the distance that separates our perceptions from reality, but it's not fair or productive. To those who say we need to discuss, grieve, etc., I agree, but it needs to be done tactfully. If you couldn't say it to her face and stay there to refute it, don't say it. Maybe it's just me, and I'm fesity as all effing get out, but I see a lot of cowardice, ignorance and misunderstanding in this thread that would never rear its ugly head in a vis a vis encounter.

            Some of you may know Chris Newton at Rood & Riddle....
            I think this is a great time for everyone to jump on the bandwagon and learn from him what is perhaps one of the best bits of horsemanship I've heard in a long while. I know a girl who took her horse in for a lameness workup @ R&R. He didn't waste much time in aggressively but sympathetically informing her that she had no business running her horse at prelim if she didn't know what and where the major structures in her horse's legs were. Sure, the girl cried, and the parents wanted to protect her from the "bad in the world", so they paid up the $$ from the exam and sought another opinion. I applaud Chris for so emphatically pushing this agenda. I think anyone, really, who rides, and events in particular (b/c of the extreme demands on our horses' legs), regardless of the level, should know, for example, what the suspensory does and where it is. After all, how are you going to know something's wrong with it if you don't even know it's there?

            So that's my challenge to everyone who reads this post and thread - take the time to make something of this terribly unfortunate incident and thread. I'm sure Amy would like others to learn from this situation. Seek out this information and become a better horseman. Everyone here has pretty good typing skills, so step away from the keyboard (well, maybe not you might need the internet for research) and learn about it.

            There is potential for learning here. People need to see that and embrace it...not frantically row this boat down the Styx.

            That's my bit for now. Jingles for Sparky, Amy, and everyone involved!
            Last edited by Row Wisco, Row!; May. 2, 2007, 05:23 PM. Reason: Fixed some typos because I'm directing people here....
            To be great is to dare to rise above the sea of mediocrity and surround yourself by the elite... To be excellent is to never give in to the mental weakness or fear.

            Comment


            • #86
              Blimey, the large majority of that post had no relevance what-so-ever!!

              I would happily say anything that I have posted to Amy's face. I wouldnt care if it had been a prelim rider, a pony competitor or the most recent olympic gold medallist, the horse's welfare was severely compromised.

              Are you saying the horse wasnt in excrutiating pain? He wasnt weight bearing when she pulled him up. Thats more than a bit of pain. The way he cantered was more than enough to tell ANYONE he was seriously hurting.

              I feel for Amy, I really do as it was obviously just very bad judgement, she wasnt deliberately trying to hurt her horse. It is a rider's responsibility to always do the best for their horse and the best for this horse would have been to pull up straight away. If it had been a minor injury then she could have seen that and made a calculated decision to carry on and complete her round. She should have checked at least.

              Comment


              • #87
                Originally posted by subk View Post
                InVA I am not defending Amy or saying that she didn't make an error in judgement--I don't think anyone is saying that in hindsight she didn't make a bad call. I just disagree that this is the proper time, place or jury for a lynching.
                I agree with you. I read a bunch of opinions in this thread. then I watched the video. IMO he is clearly lame WELL before he was presented to the fence. It is up to the FEI to decide how to handle it from here on out.

                Comment


                • #88
                  I hesitated posting here, but I did watch the video and despite the quality, there is not doubt that the horse was very, very lame and asking his rider to let him stop when he was trotting/cross cantering to compensate for the injured leg.

                  Am I reading too much into the brief video...perhaps. But I was partners with a horse that had the biggest heart. When we made the incredibly difficult decision to put him down earlier this month, both my husband and I said that it was hard because he was not a horse that would ever "quit"--if asked, he would run cross country on a broken leg. We had the huge responsibility to make that decision for him--before he truly began to suffer.

                  When you have a horse like that, you must be careful to never take advantage of the heart and courage. And I know that all of us as eventers are very attuned to every nuance of our horse's personalities and gaits. Using the reasoning that "she didn't realize how lame he was" is not fair to the horse or rider--even as a lower level rider, I know when my horse is not right underneath me. We all recognize that Amy is a wonderful horsewoman--I do believe she knew something was quite wrong underneath her, but in a split second, made a judgement call that many will spend hours scrutinizing.

                  I am not one to place blame--we all make horrible mistakes and judgement calls at points in our lives. We are all human. However, I think what does bother me is the statement made afterward--I'd much rather have someone just say, "Yes, I made a mistake" than come up with "he was locked on the fence and it was safer to jump (paraphrased)." That horse never locked on the fence--he jumped it because he was asked to and was ready to pull up as soon as he was allowed--and a rider that can realize that and know they made the wrong choice that day has more respect in my book than one who tries to justify why they made the decision they made.

                  I feel terrible for Le Samurai, Amy, and all their connections. My heart still aches over losing my own horse and I truly hope that this horse can overcome his injury and live a good quality of life.

                  Comment


                  • #89
                    I've been reading and following this since it happened but today was my first glimpse of the video. I can see why Amy didn't feel it. Of course... I watched the footage about 5 times. When he first "tripped" (sorry, don't know what you'd call it) he looked really bad but she was going FAST so she got him together and he went ok for a step and then bad again but then he switched to his left lead and he looked ok, stiff. I think if he had note gone to that lead and stayed on it (which he did at that point) then she would have pulled up. But when he went to that left lead and kept going then I think she thought he was ok. She was probably thinking it would be a very long night of icing and such. But after the last jump, as he went gallopping away, I think she knew something was really wrong. The distance to the finish was about the same as the distance it would have taken to stop anyway, and he is trained to slow down and stop at the finish so his training also helped here. I don't think she is at fault. Not that anyone would care what I do think...

                    I can't help but that "what if" it had happened anywhere else on course. She would have pulled up (maybe within same time) and no one would be judging. The judgement seems to be coming from the fact that she crossed the finish line. I don't see how the jump judges could have made the call to get her to stop, I'm not even sure what a vet would think. And I think that the choice not to accept Amy's withdrawal but instead to consider it a DQ is wrong...

                    I wish Amy, Le Samurai and everyone taking care of them both ... I wish you all well. There are long days and nights ahead...

                    Comment


                    • #90
                      Originally posted by Bossanova View Post
                      She had plenty of time to pull up, the horse tried to pull itself up.

                      Do any of you have any idea how painful rupturing your ligaments is? It's not like cutting yourself or pulling a muscle, it's excrutiating. The horse did not lock onto the fence, it's ears were back, she rode him on into the fence and continued to ride him on over the line. He looked slightly more comfortable in right lead canter but ANY rider would have felt he was seriously lame.

                      In racing the horse would have been pulled up immediately, no doubt about that. Why should it be different in eventing? Adrenaline is a strong feeling but it was a serious error on Amy's part to carry on. Yes, no doubt she regrets it now but that isnt good enough, its too late for the horse.

                      I've never seen anything like this in eventing and I'm sorry, but the FEI must come down hard on her. It is unacceptable at any level, especially 4*

                      I totally agree, she had plenty of time to pull up, the horse was not locked on, she is talking out of her ass. I am not as experienced as her but I know when my horse is lame and christ almighty what the hell did she think was happening????? She had to push and push him back into canter and she didn;t pull him up, he stopped she needs the book thrown at her and I hope she never comes to the UK because she will not be welcome by a lot of us

                      Comment


                      • #91
                        Originally posted by Bossanova View Post
                        Blimey, the large majority of that post had no relevance what-so-ever!!
                        Who are you to deem what is and isn't relevant for me or others?
                        Quite frankly, I found all of it to be relevant or I wouldn't have thrown it to the wolves.

                        Funny how you can keep interjecting your thoughts and expect respect and acknowledgement for them, if not agreement, but I can't do the same. You can throw the barbs, but you sure can't take them!

                        And re: the horse being uncomfortable.
                        I never said that he wasn't. I said he surely experienced ill effects b/c of the huge load. I was correcting the assumed science behind it because I hope that something good and educational can come from this thread. I was trying to contribute in a positive manner, which is more than I can say for some.
                        To be great is to dare to rise above the sea of mediocrity and surround yourself by the elite... To be excellent is to never give in to the mental weakness or fear.

                        Comment


                        • #92
                          I remain stunned by the reactions here.

                          Ive been involved in eventing a long time. Back in the days when you went as fast as you can, as hard as you can. Right through to now, although now is through my daughter.

                          Ive been involved with horses most of my life,in horse sport and in just loving them.

                          Never did I ever think there would be this kind of vicious, unthinking, uninformed reaction from event riders.

                          yes--you are all entitled to opinion.

                          But opinion on this kind of situation--with no facts, no real knowledge, no statements from anyone that matters-- opinion can be misguided.

                          Pages back, someone posted a timeline.

                          I have no idea what I might have done in those 20-30 seconds.
                          But I am sure over the years that what I have done, with horses or in life, has resulted in good and bad consequences. Seconds, minutes, hours, years.

                          All these experiences have left me humbled by the horses, and grateful for the involvement.

                          My heart goes out to Amy Tryon. Her life is irrevocably changed.

                          My heart goes out to 'Sparky'.
                          I not only knew his sire, Sabotage, but own several Sabotages and my daughter used to ride him and his get. We have our own 'Sparky', also Holsteiner-Thoroughbred, also an event horse. (But named years before we knew of Le Samurai).

                          For now, I've got fingers crossed that the surgery goes well. And that the pooh-bahs of FEI remember what it is to be human.
                          one oak, lots of canyons

                          http://horsesportnews.wordpress.com/

                          Comment


                          • #93
                            Originally posted by katherine w View Post
                            I've been reading and following this since it happened but today was my first glimpse of the video. I can see why Amy didn't feel it.
                            ...

                            WHAT????? what do you normally ride...a merry go round horse how the hell could she not feel it, for goodness sake

                            Comment


                            • #94


                              If you couldn't tell that horse was seriously injured the first bad step. That is disgusting. It looked nothing like a pulled shoe or slip. He took a bad step and proceeded to be three legged lame for what, 25 more strides before the next jump. It isn't about competition, even if you aren't sure, you should pull up immediately.

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                              • #95
                                right on, canyonoak... we are all human.

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                                • #96
                                  I doubt Amy Tryon is at the level where you have to look down to see what lead you're on... even beginners can tell if a horse is Cross cantering..can't they?

                                  Comment


                                  • #97
                                    I mean, how could she not tell something was wrong?

                                    Comment


                                    • #98
                                      Originally posted by katherine w View Post
                                      right on, canyonoak... we are all human.

                                      thats right we are all human, and apparently with feelings and awareness where was Amy's

                                      Comment


                                      • #99
                                        Originally posted by KellyS View Post
                                        I am not one to place blame--we all make horrible mistakes and judgement calls at points in our lives. We are all human. However, I think what does bother me is the statement made afterward--I'd much rather have someone just say, "Yes, I made a mistake" than come up with "he was locked on the fence and it was safer to jump (paraphrased)." That horse never locked on the fence--he jumped it because he was asked to and was ready to pull up as soon as he was allowed--and a rider that can realize that and know they made the wrong choice that day has more respect in my book than one who tries to justify why they made the decision they made.

                                        I feel terrible for Le Samurai, Amy, and all their connections. My heart still aches over losing my own horse and I truly hope that this horse can overcome his injury and live a good quality of life.
                                        Nicely said.

                                        Also, I do think that "R. Wisco R." raises some vaild points, although I disagree with some. Also, as a physician, I can assure you that ligament injuries hurt even before the joint effusion. And for those who suggested the damage was done so she didn't hurt him more by jumping- nobody knew at the time it was ligamentous. What if it had been a fracture? Still no change in the outcome to go on and jump??
                                        Destiny is not a matter of chance, it is a matter of choice; it is not a thing to be waited for, it is a thing to be achieved. - William Jennings Bryan

                                        http://www.halcyon-hill.com

                                        Comment


                                        • I watched it in real time on the live feed and immediately said oh my god he's broken down. I couldn't believe he stayed up over the last fence. The horse has the heart of a lion.

                                          That said, the first 11 minutes of Amy's ride were a study in amazing horse sense and good judgement. She rode a clearly hot horse extremely tactfully. She let him be himself between the fences and asked for his attention on the combinations with respect (and got a lovely response). I thought her quite the genius watching and didn't envy her the ride at all despite his extreme athleticism. Too bad that part of the ride isn't on Youtube to balance the last horrific 30 seconds. It wouldn't cancel it out, but it would balance the picture.

                                          The FEI will no doubt take this seriously and will fully investigate. I'd bet no one is harsher and more devastated than Amy. I am as sorry I saw La Samurai's breakdown as I was seeing Barbaro's -- I'm with the others who hesitated to post on this thread, but I was incredibly disturbed by witnessing the downfall of a wonderful horse as I would have been if he'd never taken the last fence.
                                          Last edited by Debbie; Apr. 30, 2007, 04:10 PM. Reason: spelling mainly
                                          If you believe everything you read, better not read. -- Japanese Proverb

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