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Letter in this weeks Horse and Hound. Dangerous Riding

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  • Letter in this weeks Horse and Hound. Dangerous Riding

    Hilda Hicks Donahue has written to Dog and Nag with regard to her elimination on the XC at Pau with four fences left for "dangerous riding". I have seached Coth and read Ms Donahues blog, but cannot find any photographs of the so called "dangerous riding" at Pau.

    As a BE fence judge, I'd be interested in seeing what was deemed to be dangerous.

    Have I missed a topic (have searched)?

    Kindest regards

    Paddy

    ETA the original H & H article http://www.ashmoreequestriancenter.c...undArticle.jpg
    "Chaos, panic and disorder. My work here is done"

    ~Member of the "Addicted to Lessons" clique~

  • #2
    Interesting. From the article it sounds as if someone at Pau was a tad too yellow card happy. The subjective nature of the dangerous riding rule makes me uneasy. If the rationale is for Hilda's was the "upside down shape" of the horse - I'm done for. While I respect the spirit of the DR rule, why does it conjure up images of Barney Fife yelling "Citizen's Arrest! Citizen's Arrest!" to me.

    Comment


    • #3
      Apparantly there was no actual "dangerous riding", but poor Hilda was stopped (4 fences from the end!?!) because they didn't like her horse's inverted jumping style. Which is ridiculous IMO. There have been many unorthodox jumpers over the years who have been very successful and very safe. Pics showed the horse to be quite tight with his legs, but jumping with a very hollow back. And of course that's not ideal, but there are horses who consistantly jump this way, who know exactly what they are doing, and therefore are very safe.
      http://www.MyVirtualEventingCoach.com

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      • #4
        No pics of Hilda's round at Pau, but could the pic of Danica Moore's horse on the top right of my screen right now (on COTH) substitute?
        I guess the Irishman would have been yellow carded these days too.
        Humph.

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        • #5
          Funny how we have ended up going to the opposite end of the spectrum. From that article it seems there's a lot of work to do on the yellow card system. That poor rider, how disapointing. She must be furious.

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          • #6
            There was one picture of her round in the COTH article on Pau, and in it both she and the horse look great. Honestly, if that's dangerous riding, then very, very few beginner novices aren't.

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            • #7
              I just read the article in the COTH. I had no idea that that was what happened! Hilda explained that one of the officials told her if the horse jumped a table the way he jumped the brush, he would land on the table. That is one of the more ridiculous things I've heard lately. It wasn't a table...it was brush. I'm thinking this experienced pair knew the difference. If you watch most upper level horses (including mine) jump brush fences, they should be pulled off courses also then...

              I am sorry that Hilda spent a lot of time and money and her horse went through the stress of travelling overseas to have that happen!

              Chrissy

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              • #8
                I find it disturbing that Mark Phillips says it's ok for horses to be run more often, singling out Oliver Townend's Carousel Quest - then saying perhaps the horse had a hind leg injury which was the reason for its 7 fences down in show jumping.

                Hmm... that hind leg injury brewing couldn't be from ... running the horse too often at back-to-back 4 stars could it?
                Blugal

                You never know what kind of obsessive compulsive crazy person you are until another person imitates your behaviour at a three-day. --Gry2Yng

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by Blugal View Post
                  I find it disturbing that Mark Phillips says it's ok for horses to be run more often, singling out Oliver Townend's Carousel Quest - then saying perhaps the horse had a hind leg injury which was the reason for its 7 fences down in show jumping.

                  Hmm... that hind leg injury brewing couldn't be from ... running the horse too often at back-to-back 4 stars could it?
                  Of course he would say that. He, like many pros/upper level competitors who make their living there, consider these horses as commodities to be used up and sold to the highest "bidder." To them, a horse in the stall is losing money. While they can ride and patch a horse up to run, that ain't horsemanship.

                  Reed

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                  • #10
                    I don't get the part about Susanna Bordone. She broke a rule (jumping another fence once she had been eliminated) what is there to defend?

                    Then he says that she deserved the yellow card but it obviously seems like he has some issue with it since he put it in context with other people who did not deserve their yellow cards and stated the rule should be changed.

                    http://www.clarkdesigngrouparchitects.com/index.html - Lets build your dream barn

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Blugal View Post
                      I find it disturbing that Mark Phillips says it's ok for horses to be run more often, singling out Oliver Townend's Carousel Quest - then saying perhaps the horse had a hind leg injury which was the reason for its 7 fences down in show jumping.
                      But the FEI has solved that problem: let them eat bute!

                      If certain people among the elite of our sport had even a casual relationship with horse welfare, why would they stand back and not say anything about an apparently injured horse in the competition?

                      As for running horses more often, where's the evidence that 'horses recover quicker' from the short format? In human studies, it's been proven over and over again that humans judge how often and how hard to exert themselves based on 'perception of effort.' But 'perception of effort' is not the same thing as 'actual effort' -- in fact, it's often way off the mark.

                      It's quite clear that the short format is perceived to be 'less effort' than the long format but whether that's actually true (and this has to do with many factors, including the horse's fitness and preparation, not simply the competition effort) is a matter for science to determine. Anecdotal evidence, like Carousel Quest's dreadful SJ round, might suggest he was asked to run once too many times.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        I wish there had been video that we could see.

                        I agree on the face of it that an inverted style is not grounds for dangerous riding, but the other yellow card that he calls out as unfair (jumping a fence after elimination) is indeed against the rules and considered dangerous riding, as tempting as it is to make your point and finish on a good note.

                        I wonder if the officials deemed the jumping style a sign of exhaustion, unsoundness, excessive speed/lack of control, of being overfaced, or if they mistook the x-c for a hunter class. Does anyone know the horse and if he usually has an unusual style?

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Meredith Clark View Post
                          I don't get the part about Susanna Bordone. She broke a rule (jumping another fence once she had been eliminated) what is there to defend?

                          Then he says that she deserved the yellow card but it obviously seems like he has some issue with it since he put it in context with other people who did not deserve their yellow cards and stated the rule should be changed.

                          The problem is that while she may have broken a rule, she did a smart thing in terms of teaching and looking after her horse. She didn't jump the other fence and keep going, she jumped it and pulled up. This should not be considered dangerous riding. The official should have realized that she was making a smart decision and let it be. We want riders making these kinds of decisions and should encourage it.

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                          • #14
                            sometimes the rider who doesn't pull up when eliminated doesn't live to see the next event.

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by FlightCheck View Post
                              sometimes the rider who doesn't pull up when eliminated doesn't live to see the next event.
                              Sure, but they are not typically the ones who are popping over the option and pulling up. Sometimes the horse who is pulled up without some education never events again.
                              It's not black and white, the DR rule can't be black and white and if we try to make it that then nobody's going to get anywhere.
                              What that rider did was against the rules but wasn't dangerous riding. I guess it's time to add the orange card and the blue card and the purple card

                              Comment


                              • #16
                                only if I get the polka dot one with the polar bear wearing it

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                                • #17
                                  I would love to hear Woffords' response to this!

                                  Apparantly there was no actual "dangerous riding", but poor Hilda was stopped (4 fences from the end!?!) because they didn't like her horse's inverted jumping style. Which is ridiculous IMO. There have been many unorthodox jumpers over the years who have been very successful and very safe. Pics showed the horse to be quite tight with his legs, but jumping with a very hollow back. And of course that's not ideal, but there are horses who consistantly jump this way, who know exactly what they are doing, and therefore are very safe.
                                  breeder of Mercury!

                                  remember to enjoy the moment, and take a moment to enjoy and give God the glory for these wonderful horses in our lives.BECAUSE: LIFE is What Happens While Making Other Plans

                                  Comment


                                  • #18
                                    I think you should dig into all sides before making judgment.
                                    We don't have video and don't know what the circumstances were.
                                    The Capt. is not a writer. He tries but sometimes I think he does say things in print that are not what he is trying to say. It is very easy in this day and age to be misquoted.
                                    When Americans go overseas we are dissected for fun. Our horses have to be twice as good as theirs to do half as well. The people that did all this long before this season...people like Bruce Davidson, Jimmy Wofford, Mike Plumb, Torrance Watkins, Stephen Bradley, Kim Severson, Karen O'Connor, Amy Tryon worked like crazy people to be accepted and noticed and considered in European competition and paved the way for those who came later. It is up to the ones who come later to ride and bring their A game, to be as good as they can, not to whine that their horses don't ship well, or forget to ride well. This whining is crap. I heard a LOT of it at FHI and afterwards. Gets old.
                                    Proud & Permanent Student Of The Long Road
                                    Read me: EN (http://eventingnation.com/author/annemarch/) and HJU (http://horsejunkiesunited.com/author/holly-covey/)

                                    Comment


                                    • #19
                                      Originally posted by Hony View Post
                                      She didn't jump the other fence and keep going, she jumped it and pulled up. This should not be considered dangerous riding. The official should have realized that she was making a smart decision and let it be. We want riders making these kinds of decisions and should encourage it.
                                      hmm.. I understand the idea of letting the horse finish on a positive note but a rule is a rule. There is a reason (multiple reasons) that riders are not allowed to jump another fence ones they have been eliminated and no one should get to break that rule.

                                      How did she know she was not going to interfere with another person's course when jumping a different fence?

                                      Also if a judge can not punish a rider for breaking important rules how will they enforce any of the rules?

                                      Maybe the rule should be changed, that's a whole 'nother thread, but until then you can't keep jumping when you're eliminated... no matter who you are.
                                      http://www.clarkdesigngrouparchitects.com/index.html - Lets build your dream barn

                                      Comment


                                      • #20
                                        Originally posted by retreadeventer View Post
                                        When Americans go overseas we are dissected for fun. Our horses have to be twice as good as theirs to do half as well.
                                        The rider in question, Hilda Hick Donahue, rides for Ireland.

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