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Importance of ammy status?

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  • Importance of ammy status?

    Okay, my ammy status is blown. I muck out stalls, get rides on a schoolie, and occasionally work off the barn's splint of lessons. Do I mind admitting this in public? Nope, cause I believe in honesty; even if I had never outed myself and no one ever found out, I would know. Is it fair? Who cares? The rules are written the way they are for a reason.
    Now on to the question: How important is my status as far as eventing? In Hunterland, it is HUGE. I can't run with the big dogs, which is okay with me. . . but I really would like, one of these days, to ride in a few events. Assuming full disclosure of my "Pro" status, when is it going to affect my ability to compete?

  • #2
    Pretty much the only thing it will affect is the year end Eventing awards.

    But you will be able to compete at any level you want in Eventing.
    Janet

    chief feeder and mucker for Music, Spy, Belle and Tiara. Someone else is now feeding and mucking for Chief and Brain (both foxhunting now).

    Comment


    • #3
      The article on this topic in the most recent issue of COTH got me thinking about this as well. I grew up riding in Hunter Land and it IS a VERY big deal there. Having spent the last 4 years in Eventing Capital, USA (Unionville, PA) it occurred to me that eventing an horse shows place very different amounts of emphasis on this rule. IMO, the rule is on the harsh side. Many ammies/juniors can't afford riding lessons without making some cash exercising boarder's horses (not to mention how important it is for the learning curve to sit on a wide array of beasts). But, on the other hand, there is something very unfair and unsportsmanlike about pros fudging their status .

      What are people's thoughts?

      Also, I thought that there used to be something about not deriving more than 25% of total income for horses. Was this an AHSA rule or am I just imagining things?
      "We can judge the heart of a man by his treatment of animals" Immanuel Kant

      Comment

      • Original Poster

        #4
        A junior is more than welcome to make money with horses. Once you age out, you can either pay for lessons and use of a horse, or go Pro.
        And really, it IS fair. I get to ride 3-5 days a week. That adds up quick when you are paying for lessons, or even leasing. This way, my money can go to gear! If I were to quit my job, I can apply for my ammy status back after a year, so it's not a forever type situation.
        I'm not familiar with ASHA rules, but I do have the USEF rulebook.

        Comment


        • #5
          The USEF was the AHSA. hasn't been the AHSA for years. The USEA eventing rules were different for ammies, they no longer are.

          Comment


          • #6
            In Eventing, you can earn up to $2500 working with horses and still retain your amateur status if it is important to you, but there aren't any real benefits. A few shows a year will offer Amateur Rider divisions, which benefit the upper level amateurs more than the lower level ones. The UL ammies are permitted to compete with their peers say in an AR division at Training when otherwise they would have to compete in the Open division because they no longer qualify for the straight Rider division.

            Comment


            • #7
              Ammy status is pretty unimportant in eventing IMO.
              A very small number of shows offer ammy divisions (which in my area tend to be just as competitive as every other division so not really an advantage), the leaderboard is now broken down into a ridiculous (IMO) number of subcategories for each level so you might get your name on the leaderboard faster since there is an ammy category now and there are ammy year end awards.
              That is pretty much all I can think of
              There is something about the outside of a horse that is good for the inside of a man.(Churchill)

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by DQ Eventer View Post
                In Eventing, you can earn up to $2500 working with horses and still retain your amateur status if it is important to you
                I thought they changed this this year or last year to be more in line with the other disciplines (i.e. you can't make any money working with horses or teaching and be an ammy).

                Comment


                • #9
                  Correct, now can't make anything. But, I don't think it is very important. I am an adult ammy and have never applied that status to anything. Of course, I've never been qualified for any awards
                  OTTBs rule, but spots are good too!

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    I think the point here is that being an "ammy" in eventing doesn't get you anything except a special "amateur" category in year-end awards. In larger events, most show secretaries try to separate out the pros from the local amateurs into two or more equal divisions, but it doesn't always work like that in smaller shows - you may all be grouped together.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Also there are ammy divisions at the AECs.
                      SportHorseRiders.com
                      Taco Blog
                      *T3DE 2010 Pact*

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        I don't see too many "Pro" fudging their status in eventing. There is no gain to it. There have been some mistakes on the year end leader boards (listing a pro as an ammy etc.) but since year end awards generally don't mean that much to eventers....it just wasn't caught that quickly. A year end award is more like icing on the cake...cool if you win it but it really isn't most eventer's goal.

                        Also you have to be careful about judging others....I'm not a pro...I have my ammy status. I might walk a course with a rider...or help out a friend's kid at an event...but I don't let them pay me. Someone seeing me help out a rider may think I'm a pro (there would be no doubt that I am NOT a pro if they saw me ride)....but if I'm helping someone in warm up...it is as a favor and not for compensation.

                        Riding in an ammy division is always my last choice when ordering my preferences on my entry. I'm often sitting on a green horse. I'd rather compete other green horses....even if they are ridden by pros....and I don't care who I am competing against (i.e. I don't get star struck or intimidated if I ride after a Pro or have to warm up with them....some of them I can beat on occassion)

                        If I blew my ammy status....I wouldn't lose a wink of sleep over it.....it just isn't that important in eventing.
                        ** Tact is the ability to tell someone to go to hell in such a way that they look forward to the trip. ~Winston Churchill? **

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Professional Amateur

                          I just finished reading the article and as with most regulations, I found some sections rather conflicting and unclear. So here's my dilemma - I am a professional sooo far outside the horse world that the only thing my job has in relation to a horse is potentially the methane the occasionally produce. That being said, I work 40-50 hrs a week. My commute from my house to the office is 50 mins. and from the office to the barn 1.25 hrs. and then from the barn to the house .5 hr. As you can see I spend a lot of time in a car. I have a young horse that I see/ride 5-6days a week. Fortunately, I have an extremely understanding husband and two sons.

                          I have given lessons to friends children because I enjoy seeing progress and feel that I have something to offer. I don't charge, nor would I want to charge for the benefits that I personnally have gain by watching others struggle and progress. After all I am an amatuer. But, if someone saw me giving advice or helping a child ride or understand a course, I would need to defend my status.

                          Could I ride with the professionals? Sure, most amateurs could, but we would be at a significant disadvantage since we're not immersed in the horse world or priviledge to ride multiply horses.

                          So, based on the ruling I guess I will need to learn how to be a primadona or the perfect princess. Do I need to develop an attitude of it's all about me so you better begin to cater to my every need?

                          Please let me know how I must change to become a fully vested amatuer. I would hate to be seen freely encouraging a child with a difficult mount needing some assistance as coaching.

                          I know it's all about the dollar$$$$$$ Just let me rant about inconsistent, thoughtless rules that are ment to control the stupid population!!!!

                          Thanks for reading.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            LISailing....I don't follow. If you have a non-horse job and don't charge for helping a kid or other rider...then you are not a pro or did they change the rule on me again?

                            I can say that I've never heard of anyone contesting whether someone is an ammy or not in eventing. And I know that no one has ever question me personally....of course that could be because they have seen me ride

                            But I guess it depends on if you think having an ammy status is important to you or if you would rather help a kid.....but I would be surprised if you ever had to defend your ammy status in eventing.
                            ** Tact is the ability to tell someone to go to hell in such a way that they look forward to the trip. ~Winston Churchill? **

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              I'm really not sure I understand the angst about this -- as others have said, it makes NO difference 99.99% of the time whether you are a pro or an ammy. I am in divisions with not just pros, but internationally successful pros ALL THE TIME. I don't see how anything about my competitive life at N, T, or P would change if I were a pro vs. an ammy.

                              Aside from some year-end stuff and what division you are in if you go to the AECs, it is a non-issue in eventing.

                              The last thing anyone thinks about if they see someone "helping" someone else at an event is whether they are a shamateur. Goodness gracious!! This is not a part of our sport at all.

                              I've gotten free advice while walking a course because I happened to roll up next to an Olympic veteran also walking the, er, Novice water.

                              I've given free advice to an (different) Olympic veteran in warmup because I had walked the xc course and she hadn't (that was an entertaining conversation).

                              It's eventing, not hunters.
                              The big man -- my lost prince

                              The little brother, now my main man

                              Comment


                              • #16
                                Okay, so let me get this right.. even if I am an ammy, I may still have to compete against pros (I havent ran a rec. yet)? Arent the divisions rider, horse, and open? SOmething like that? Can ya'll explain all this to me? Would rider be ammy rider? Horse be green horse? and open be anyone and everyone?
                                *Paige*
                                ~*It's not about the ribbons, but about the ride behind it"
                                R.I.P. Teddy O'Connor

                                Comment


                                • #17
                                  Originally posted by Rescue_Rider9 View Post
                                  Okay, so let me get this right.. even if I am an ammy, I may still have to compete against pros (I havent ran a rec. yet)? Arent the divisions rider, horse, and open? SOmething like that? Can ya'll explain all this to me? Would rider be ammy rider? Horse be green horse? and open be anyone and everyone?

                                  Yes...you may still have to compete against Pros. Depends on the Organizer of the event. When you enter an event...you just list what level you are and then order your preference for divisions. But they organizer/secretary could decide to just have all open divisions.

                                  To have an ammy division is actually very unusual. They do some times have "rider" or "horse" divisions..as well as open. This isn't an ammy/pro distinction but just based on the level that a rider has competed or a horse has competed. MOST pros will be in either open or horse divisions.
                                  ** Tact is the ability to tell someone to go to hell in such a way that they look forward to the trip. ~Winston Churchill? **

                                  Comment


                                  • #18
                                    Originally posted by Rescue_Rider9 View Post
                                    Okay, so let me get this right.. even if I am an ammy, I may still have to compete against pros (I havent ran a rec. yet)? Arent the divisions rider, horse, and open? SOmething like that? Can ya'll explain all this to me? Would rider be ammy rider? Horse be green horse? and open be anyone and everyone?
                                    Ammy does not equal rider- it is a separate possibly offered division.
                                    Rider and horse qualifications are based, not on rider's ammy status, but on the recent experience of either the rider or the horse at levels above the level being ridden (do not remember the actual parameters off the top of my head).
                                    Ammy is just that- only open to ammies that have declared their status as an ammy with the USEA or USEF.
                                    Not every competition offers all 4 divisions (the 3 above plus open). If the HT only offers open and horse divisions, then you will almost certainly be riding against pros. The competition may not offer anything other than open for a lot of reasons, one of which being failure of enough people being eligible entering or putting the other options as one of their preferences on the entry form.
                                    Riding against the pros is really not a big deal and happens all the time in eventing
                                    There is something about the outside of a horse that is good for the inside of a man.(Churchill)

                                    Comment


                                    • #19
                                      Originally posted by Rescue_Rider9 View Post
                                      Okay, so let me get this right.. even if I am an ammy, I may still have to compete against pros (I havent ran a rec. yet)? Arent the divisions rider, horse, and open? SOmething like that? Can ya'll explain all this to me? Would rider be ammy rider? Horse be green horse? and open be anyone and everyone?
                                      I ran against a Pro at the last unrecognized show I went to. Danny Warrington brings his young horses to Fair Hill unrecognized all the time. Jane Sleeper was at Carousel Park in August. To me, that's smart business when you are bringing along a green horse for someone else and do not need to worry about points.

                                      Comment


                                      • #20
                                        Originally posted by Rescue_Rider9 View Post
                                        Okay, so let me get this right.. even if I am an ammy, I may still have to compete against pros (I havent ran a rec. yet)? Arent the divisions rider, horse, and open? SOmething like that? Can ya'll explain all this to me? Would rider be ammy rider? Horse be green horse? and open be anyone and everyone?
                                        First, you have to understand how the entry process works in Eventing, it is very different from H/J.

                                        FIRST -When you enter, you are only officially entering the LEVEL- BN, N, T, etc.

                                        SECOND-Then you list the SECTIONS you are eligible for
                                        -Jr vs Young Rider vs Sr
                                        -"Amateur" (either a USEF amateur card or a USEA amateur notation)
                                        -"Rider" (Rider has not comp0leted more than twice above this level in the last 24 months)
                                        - "Horse " Horse has not completed above this level EVER
                                        - "Young Horse"
                                        -"Open" (EVERYONE is elegible for Open)
                                        "Championship" (only at an event hosting a champ.)

                                        THIRD you list your PREFERENCES among the sections you are eligible.

                                        FOURTH the secretary decides.,on his/her own, how to structure the specific devisions. The secretaty is bound by the LEVEL you entered, and can only put you in a SECTION you are eligible for, but the PREFERENCES are only guidance. The secretary aims for royghly equal sized divisions at each level.

                                        So even if you are eligible for "Rider" and you put "Rider" as your first preference, you could easily end up in the Open division (where you might be competing against an Olympian).

                                        Generally speaking there are a couple of situations where someone who requested "Rider" as the first choice ends up in Open. First, if there are not enough people eligible for "Rider" to fill a division, they may all be put in "Open". Second, if there are too many people who preferred "Rider", they may shift some of them into "Open". There are other situations, but those are the most common.

                                        You could even end up competing against an Olympian in a Rider division, if he/she has taken 2 years off.

                                        You can also end up competing against professionals even in the "Rider" division, if they only compete at the lower levels. For instance, there are LOTS of people who are listed as "Not-Amateur" who are eligible for Training Rider.
                                        Janet

                                        chief feeder and mucker for Music, Spy, Belle and Tiara. Someone else is now feeding and mucking for Chief and Brain (both foxhunting now).

                                        Comment

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