• Welcome to the Chronicle Forums.
    Please complete your profile. The forums and the rest of www.chronofhorse.com has single sign-in, so your log in information for one will automatically work for the other. Disclaimer: The opinions expressed here are the views of the individual and do not necessarily reflect the views and opinions of The Chronicle of the Horse.

Announcement

Collapse

Forum rules and no-advertising policy

As a participant on this forum, it is your responsibility to know and follow our rules. Please read this message in its entirety.

Board Rules

1. You’re responsible for what you say.
As outlined in Section 230 of the Communications Decency Act, The Chronicle of the Horse and its affiliates, as well Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd., the developers of vBulletin, are not legally responsible for statements made in the forums.

This is a public forum viewed by a wide spectrum of people, so please be mindful of what you say and who might be reading it—details of personal disputes are likely better handled privately. While posters are legally responsible for their statements, the moderators may in their discretion remove or edit posts that violate these rules. Users have the ability to modify or delete their own messages after posting, but administrators generally will not delete posts, threads or accounts upon request.

Outright inflammatory, vulgar, harassing, malicious or otherwise inappropriate statements and criminal charges unsubstantiated by a reputable news source or legal documentation will not be tolerated and will be dealt with at the discretion of the moderators.

2. Conversations in horse-related forums should be horse-related.
The forums are a wonderful source of information and support for members of the horse community. While it’s understandably tempting to share information or search for input on other topics upon which members might have a similar level of knowledge, members must maintain the focus on horses.

3. Keep conversations productive, on topic and civil.
Discussion and disagreement are inevitable and encouraged; personal insults, diatribes and sniping comments are unproductive and unacceptable. Whether a subject is light-hearted or serious, keep posts focused on the current topic and of general interest to other participants of that thread. Utilize the private message feature or personal email where appropriate to address side topics or personal issues not related to the topic at large.

4. No advertising in the discussion forums.
Posts in the discussion forums directly or indirectly advertising horses, jobs, items or services for sale or wanted will be removed at the discretion of the moderators. Use of the private messaging feature or email addresses obtained through users’ profiles for unsolicited advertising is not permitted.

Company representatives may participate in discussions and answer questions about their products or services, or suggest their products on recent threads if they fulfill the criteria of a query. False "testimonials" provided by company affiliates posing as general consumers are not appropriate, and self-promotion of sales, ad campaigns, etc. through the discussion forums is not allowed.

Paid advertising is available on our classifieds site and through the purchase of banner ads. The tightly monitored Giveaways forum permits free listings of genuinely free horses and items available or wanted (on a limited basis). Items offered for trade are not allowed.

Advertising Policy Specifics
When in doubt of whether something you want to post constitutes advertising, please contact a moderator privately in advance for further clarification. Refer to the following points for general guidelines:

Horses – Only general discussion about the buying, leasing, selling and pricing of horses is permitted. If the post contains, or links to, the type of specific information typically found in a sales or wanted ad, and it’s related to a horse for sale, regardless of who’s selling it, it doesn’t belong in the discussion forums.

Stallions – Board members may ask for suggestions on breeding stallion recommendations. Stallion owners may reply to such queries by suggesting their own stallions, only if their horse fits the specific criteria of the original poster. Excessive promotion of a stallion by its owner or related parties is not permitted and will be addressed at the discretion of the moderators.

Services – Members may use the forums to ask for general recommendations of trainers, barns, shippers, farriers, etc., and other members may answer those requests by suggesting themselves or their company, if their services fulfill the specific criteria of the original post. Members may not solicit other members for business if it is not in response to a direct, genuine query.

Products – While members may ask for general opinions and suggestions on equipment, trailers, trucks, etc., they may not list the specific attributes for which they are in the market, as such posts serve as wanted ads.

Event Announcements – Members may post one notification of an upcoming event that may be of interest to fellow members, if the original poster does not benefit financially from the event. Such threads may not be “bumped” excessively. Premium members may post their own notices in the Event Announcements forum.

Charities/Rescues – Announcements for charitable or fundraising events can only be made for 501(c)(3) tax-exempt organizations. Special exceptions may be made, at the moderators’ discretion and direction, for board-related events or fundraising activities in extraordinary circumstances.

Occasional posts regarding horses available for adoption through IRS-registered horse rescue or placement programs are permitted in the appropriate forums, but these threads may be limited at the discretion of the moderators. Individuals may not advertise or make announcements for horses in need of rescue, placement or adoption unless the horse is available through a recognized rescue or placement agency or government-run entity or the thread fits the criteria for and is located in the Giveaways forum.

5. Do not post copyrighted photographs unless you have purchased that photo and have permission to do so.

6. Respect other members.
As members are often passionate about their beliefs and intentions can easily be misinterpreted in this type of environment, try to explore or resolve the inevitable disagreements that arise in the course of threads calmly and rationally.

If you see a post that you feel violates the rules of the board, please click the “alert” button (exclamation point inside of a triangle) in the bottom left corner of the post, which will alert ONLY the moderators to the post in question. They will then take whatever action, or no action, as deemed appropriate for the situation at their discretion. Do not air grievances regarding other posters or the moderators in the discussion forums.

Please be advised that adding another user to your “Ignore” list via your User Control Panel can be a useful tactic, which blocks posts and private messages by members whose commentary you’d rather avoid reading.

7. We have the right to reproduce statements made in the forums.
The Chronicle of the Horse may copy, quote, link to or otherwise reproduce posts, or portions of posts, in print or online for advertising or editorial purposes, if attributed to their original authors, and by posting in this forum, you hereby grant to The Chronicle of the Horse a perpetual, non-exclusive license under copyright and other rights, to do so.

8. We reserve the right to enforce and amend the rules.
The moderators may delete, edit, move or close any post or thread at any time, or refrain from doing any of the foregoing, in their discretion, and may suspend or revoke a user’s membership privileges at any time to maintain adherence to the rules and the general spirit of the forum. These rules may be amended at any time to address the current needs of the board.

Please see our full Terms of Service and Privacy Policy for more information.

Thanks for being a part of the COTH forums!

(Revised 1/26/16)
See more
See less

When is NOT moving up an issue at the LLs?

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • When is NOT moving up an issue at the LLs?

    I didn't find this topic when I searched, so I apologize if this has been discussed before... but at our barn we have been talking about this, and I thought it would be interesting to get a broader perspective.

    We have wondered if there is a point when not moving up becomes unsportsmanlike? Not the big jump from Training to Prelim (where certainly a lot of horses just max out), but from BN to N to T.

    Our trainer is very much of the mind that one does not move up until the set of skills needed for the lower level is solid, demonstrated by consistent rides and usually accompanied by show ring success. At the same time, we are not allowed to "cherry pick" ribbons at a confirmed lower level; if a horse and rider pair are not able to move on together (horse is maxed out, rider is not brave, etc), then each should have a new partner.

    Just as examples, I noticed a lot of AEC riders this year, especially juniors, competing a level lower than they had actually run all season. Also, amateurs elsewhere winning consistently on their extremely low dressage scores while regularly competing twice a month in Amateur and Rider divisions (IOW, no issues with horse age or soundness, lack of experience, etc).

    So, obviously those things aren't against the rules... our discussion has been whether its sportsmanlike. And if not, what would be more appropriate? Should the rules change? Should riders be expected to compete in Open divisions? Should the move up if they're clearly ready and accept less than a blue?

    Thanks for your thoughts.

  • #2
    Honestly, I think the people who complain about people staying in a division that is perfectly legal to them are the one's who are being unsportsmanlike.

    Everyone has personal reasons for not upgrading or moving on. Not everyone can just get a new partner if theirs is maxed out.

    And some people may just not want to move up. Not everyone wants to compete above training, or novice or even BN for that matter. You just never know what the situation surrounding each horse and rider is.

    Comment


    • #3
      I for one have no desire to compete at training! Thankfully, my Tucker is just starting out in BN, so we have a while to worry about what others may think, but I think I will leave the training level and up for my daughter! I did the open jumpers and really have nothing to prove at this point except to have fun!
      Lori T
      www.calypsofarmeventers.blogspot.com
      www.facebook.com/LoriTankelPhotography
      www.facebook.com/LTEquine for product updates on the lines I rep

      Comment

      • Original Poster

        #4
        Originally posted by Jazzy Lady View Post
        Honestly, I think the people who complain about people staying in a division that is perfectly legal to them are the one's who are being unsportsmanlike.
        Can you elaborate on that? I'm not being snarky, but why have divisions within a level at all if not to ensure that one is competing against riders and horses with similar experience?

        Comment


        • #5
          My trainer, when she still evented, refused to go over a certain level. She didn't want to risk the horse's soundness on higher jumps. She would quit riding that horse, stick it in her lesson program or sell it to one of her students, and start a new training prospect once she maxxed out.

          Comment


          • #6
            It's a competition and people compete to win. As long as they are doing it within the rules, then so be it. I have won a few Novices; should I be chucked into a division with the Phillips and Sharons and Boyds and get blown away by their decades more experience and their super fancy youngsters with extremely low dressage scores just because? Maybe pros should be only be allowed to ride HC in the lower divisions to make it fair for the ammys? Oh, wait, there are ammys with tons of money and super nice horses in the lower levels- okay, HC them too. Or make a new division, like Limit BN and Limit N where you get kicked out after 3 wins. Or realize that it is a competition and many people go there with the idea of hopefully winning something.

            I'm feeling a little cranky today .

            Comment


            • #7
              Everyone should compete at the level they are comfortable at.
              If you have won at novice 100x and don't feel ready for training, then you aren't ready.
              People also do not have to justify their competition level by publicizing their physical/emotional limitations or their horses'.

              As far as the Ammy/Rider/Open divisions whatever restrictions are put on each, there are going to be people that are more experienced than others. If people wanted to change the specs to be more like equitation, such that after a certain number of wins you had to go open, I don't think I'd care either way (like, whatever the USEA membership is happiest with is fine, as long as anyone can compete at any level and is forced to move up).

              That said, any set of division rules is going to be somewhat arbitrary, there is no "spirit of the rule" aside from the actual specs, so as long as you are competing in a division you are eligible for, I have no issue.

              Agree with Jazzy Lady that the people who complain about legal competitors are unsportsmanlike--they're legal under the current rules.

              Comment

              • Original Poster

                #8
                So... it's all about winning, then? I guess that's part of my question. At what point is it about sportsmanship?

                Is it really a "competition" if you've been there, done that, for years? For me at least, winning because I sandbagged a lower level isn't much of a thrill.

                ETA, sorry was responding to Catalina.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by baxtersmom View Post
                  So... it's all about winning, then? I guess that's part of my question. At what point is it about sportsmanship?

                  Is it really a "competition" if you've been there, done that, for years? For me at least, winning because I sandbagged a lower level isn't much of a thrill.

                  ETA, sorry was responding to Catalina.
                  Depends on your definition of sportsmanship. And depends on if you expect the entire world to adhere to YOUR definition of sportsmanship.

                  I am glad you do not want to 'sandbag'. Good for you.

                  This may not be the path of others. So, do what is right for you and leave everyone else to THEIR path.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Really? Get a new horse if you aren't going to move up with your own? What if you don't want WANT a new horse? I've been riding my horse for 10 years, we started eventing 3 years ago, she'll be 14 this spring and has some mild arthritis in her hocks, I have no desire to take her above BN or N because of this issue (plus, she's a little horse, that's high enough for her!). I'm sure the one horse trial I can afford to go to a year won't make me a threat...

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Interestingly, when I was growing up and everything where I was was unrecognized (well, recognized by the local CTA), you had to move up to Novice after 3 blue ribbons at BN. This was because BN was considered practice for the goal of Novice and there was no sense that anyone who evented wouldn't be comfortable at novice. I think that as the sport has expanded, we have included people who don't want to move to Novice or to training or to prelim or whatever and I think that is a good thing. The dressage rider who has beautiful horses who will win the dressage and jump around a small course, but isn't comfortable jumping over 2'7" (just an example, I know there are plenty of dressage riders who are very good jumpers), or the person who gets into eventing later and isn't brave or the person who has a lifetime horse that they love riding and competing, but that horse is maxed at Novice (maybe for veterinary reasons). Why should any of us care. As far as AEC, you have to qualify and the period is such that people may qualify right as they are feeling ready to move to the next level, but can't quite qualify at that next level. That is probably correct. I think there is just way too much concern about what everyone else is doing and what is preventing people from winning. Go out, ride your horse, be comfortable, let your horse be comfortable, smile and enjoy when you don't get a ribbon, but everyone who did has a pink coat or when you get beaten by the 12 year old who really loves her ex 3-star horse. Eventing is so great, because we all get to compete against each other and meet each other, support each other and appreciate each other. Maybe I am odd, but I don't want to be relegated to ammy divisions for the sake of "competition parity", though I am totally the ammy.
                      OTTBs rule, but spots are good too!

                      Comment

                      • Original Poster

                        #12
                        Originally posted by mjhco View Post
                        Depends on your definition of sportsmanship. And depends on if you expect the entire world to adhere to YOUR definition of sportsmanship.

                        I am glad you do not want to 'sandbag'. Good for you.

                        This may not be the path of others. So, do what is right for you and leave everyone else to THEIR path.
                        So, how do you and others define "sportsmanship" then? Can you explain how competing regularly at a level/ in a division that is clearly beneath one's demonstrated skill level fits into that?

                        I AM honestly curious about people's responses to this.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by baxtersmom View Post
                          So... it's all about winning, then? I guess that's part of my question. At what point is it about sportsmanship?

                          Is it really a "competition" if you've been there, done that, for years? For me at least, winning because I sandbagged a lower level isn't much of a thrill.

                          ETA, sorry was responding to Catalina.
                          No, it's all about spending tons of time and money on lessons and entry fees and tack and horse expenses and going to a show because you had nothing better to do on that particular weekend .

                          Give me a break, of course most people want to get a ribbon and so they want to compete in an environment where they have the best chance. One thing to remember is that we are dealing with animals that have a mind of their own and subjective dressage judges that have their own opinions. Even a been there/done that horse and rider combination has no guarantee of winning. Heck, my horse got a 21.6 last year and one week later got a 36.8 and then a 39.5 a couple of weeks later all at Novice.

                          It is very hard to get all the pieces together consistently and those who can deserve to win. How is that unsportsmanlike? I have seen horses win several in a row, remain in the rider division and then have stops XC at the next few shows. Dressage leaders have rails, do something silly and get TE'ed, etc. This sport is complex enough as it is, why make it harder by having people who do well at a certain level move on to something more difficult just because?

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            I think it is because you can have MASTERED one level- be kicking butt at it... and still not be ready for the next level up. Remember there are three phases to put together here

                            Not to mention the time and comittment it takes to do well at each level increases as you go through the levels... A working adult who may kick but at novice may not have the time to do the conditioning or take the lessons needed to be competent at training. Does that mean they should not get to enjoy going out and competing at novice?

                            The test is the same for every competitor. Everyone has a chance to practice and increase their ability to do well. No one should be forced out of thier comfort zone so that others can "get the chance" to win- they already have that chance!

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by baxtersmom View Post
                              So... it's all about winning, then? I guess that's part of my question. At what point is it about sportsmanship?

                              Is it really a "competition" if you've been there, done that, for years? For me at least, winning because I sandbagged a lower level isn't much of a thrill.

                              ETA, sorry was responding to Catalina.
                              If it ISN'T about winning, then why do YOU care who else is in your division, as long they are eligible according to the rules?

                              Sportsmanship is about
                              - complying with the rules
                              - preparing horse and rider properly
                              - doing what is best for the horse
                              - knowing when to call it a day and withdraw
                              - helping others when needed
                              - being gacious about winning
                              - being gracious about losing
                              AND
                              - not complaining that you think others are sandbagging.
                              Janet

                              chief feeder and mucker for Music, Spy, Belle and Tiara. Someone else is now feeding and mucking for Chief and Brain (both foxhunting now).

                              Comment


                              • #16
                                I completely agree with Janet about her definition of sportsmanship.

                                People complaining that others are winning because they are sandbagging a division is losing ungraciously. It is extremely unsportsmanlike.

                                Nobody knows the reasons why each individual sticks to a certain level, but just because they are riding consistently and winning doesn't mean that they are sandbagging. It means they've done their homework for that particular level.

                                Comment

                                • Original Poster

                                  #17
                                  Originally posted by Beam Me Up View Post

                                  As far as the Ammy/Rider/Open divisions whatever restrictions are put on each, there are going to be people that are more experienced than others. If people wanted to change the specs to be more like equitation, such that after a certain number of wins you had to go open, I don't think I'd care either way (like, whatever the USEA membership is happiest with is fine, as long as anyone can compete at any level and is forced to move up).
                                  This idea seems very fair to me. I agree that no one should be forced to move up for whatever reason.

                                  Another question here for everyone.

                                  Why would it should a rider who is clearly not ready to move up be expected to "suck it up" and accept losing to a well-confirmed competitor when the well-confirmed competitor is not expected to "suck it up" and accept losing to a pro? Or expected to accept some time faults or rails at the next level?

                                  Comment


                                  • #18
                                    Originally posted by baxtersmom View Post
                                    So, how do you and others define "sportsmanship" then? Can you explain how competing regularly at a level/ in a division that is clearly beneath one's demonstrated skill level fits into that?

                                    I AM honestly curious about people's responses to this.
                                    Sportsmanship is competing WITHIN THE RULES.
                                    Competing in a division that you are not eligible for, lying about being an ammy, about having gone prelim in the last 2 years, etc is poor sportsmanship.
                                    Competing in a division that you are fully eligible for that another competitor feels is beneath your skill level is NOT poor sportsmanship.

                                    Every pair has a different story, which may or may not be evident to other competitors.
                                    Maybe the vet said not to jump the horse over 3'
                                    Maybe the rider had a terrible crash 20 years ago and have no desire to jump big fences again
                                    Maybe horse or rider has some arthritis
                                    Maybe rider is working 2 jobs and only has time to ride 3x/week
                                    Maybe the rider prefers to compete within her comfort level

                                    Whatever--not really the business of other competitors.

                                    If you don't like the existing rules, you can try to get them changed (seriously!! we have rules changes all the time, and these division specs have changed before).
                                    But calling riders who are following the rules unsportsmanlike, is well, unsportsmanlike.

                                    Comment


                                    • #19
                                      Originally posted by baxtersmom View Post
                                      Can you elaborate on that? I'm not being snarky, but why have divisions within a level at all if not to ensure that one is competing against riders and horses with similar experience?
                                      To ensure that people comply with the definition AS DEFINED by the rules. Not some individual's definition of "riders and horses with similar experience". The RULES.

                                      You can certainly recommend changing the definition (in the rules) of the various divisions within the level. But until they change, that IS the definition of "similar experience."

                                      One of the things that came out of the LONG discussion about amateur divisions in eventing was that each person who was surveyed thought "the line" should be JUST above what they were currently doing.

                                      When I started eventing, there were rules that prevented "graded" horses (who had won a certain number of points) from moving back to the lower levels, without special permission. AND forced them to move up after winning a certain number of points. That was a nightmare, and not in the best interest of the horses. Luckily we no longer do that.
                                      Janet

                                      chief feeder and mucker for Music, Spy, Belle and Tiara. Someone else is now feeding and mucking for Chief and Brain (both foxhunting now).

                                      Comment


                                      • #20
                                        I used to feel grumpy about people who seemed to spend lots of time at a level, always winning, never moving up. Until I realized, after watching them for several years, that that was their niche where they felt comfortable. I hope this doesn't come out wrong, but they may be winning every time out at Novice or Training, but they are not ready for the next level. So I have come to the conclusion that I'm fine with that -if they beat me at Novice as I'm working my way up to Training, good for them.

                                        So why shouldn't they compete where they are comfortable? I know shows have 'maiden' classes for people who have not won a blue ribbon, but I don't think events happen frequently enough for this to work - at a show, you have several chances in 1 day to win a blue, and get booted into the 'open' competition, but events is one ribbon per weekend.

                                        with all the discussion of safety the last thing we need is people being forced to move up because they did well.

                                        And if you want to be disgusted with "moving down a level" go to a dressage show with your Training/First level horse and get soundly beaten by people who also show at 3rd......

                                        THAT is annoying. Not moving up to me is different than showing down a level. Or 3.

                                        Comment

                                        Working...
                                        X