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Fair Hill Results--by breed! YEH/CCI comparison...

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  • Fair Hill Results--by breed! YEH/CCI comparison...

    CCI*** from 1st to 5th: TB, 7/8TB, TB, SF, SF

    CCI** from 1st to 5th: TB, TB, DW/TB, TB, TB

    4 year old YEH 1 st to 5th: SW/TB, OLD, Trak, OLD, Trak

    5 year old YEH 1st to 5th: DWB, "SH", ISH, TB/DWB, OLD

    So, out of ten CCI horses 6 full TBs in the top 10, 2 others have a full TB parent (one being 7/8 the other at least 1/2) and 2 are Selle Francais.

    Zero full TBs in the top ten of the YEHs. One 3/4 TB (Buck's OLD) and possibly one another 3/4 (the "SH"), but only 4 in total with any full TB parent.

    Browsing the general 2009 YEH results the TBs don't do much better there either.
    http://useventing.com/competitions.p...on=yeh&id=1848

    Why such a disconnect? Does it bother anyone that the YEH results so poorly reflects the real results of the level of competition that is the YEH breeding goal?
    Last edited by subk; Oct. 20, 2009, 12:03 AM. Reason: for clarification

  • #2
    Just a thought (not science or proven fact by any means..)

    The horse that won the *** was an OTTB.

    An OTTB that comes off the track at 4 will probably not be ready to do YEH at 4 or 5.

    Will it someday be ready to do a CCI**/*** ? Looks like it.

    That could be one of many factors.

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by subk View Post
      Why such a disconnect? Does it bother anyone that the YEH results so poorly reflects the real results of the level of competition that is the YEH breeding goal?
      Yup, bothers me too, thanks for bringing it up. I'm still watching for the changeover to non TB blood dominating at upper level events with the new format. Seems it's not happening - not yet at least.

      Is YEH really supposed to showcase Advanced eventing prospect? Or is it another nice marketing venue for more ammy h/j, maybe low level event horses?

      I guess only more time will tell...

      Comment


      • #4
        The second-placed 5 year-old is by Catherston Dazzler (5/8ths TB) out of an ISH mare so he probably is close to 3/4 TB.

        The YEH judges, IIRC, were (1) a German FEI judge, (2) an American Hannoverian breeder and (3) an American Hannoverian breeder. Might have something to do with it -- something about the poodle judge choosing the poodle for Best in Show.

        My 3 year-old TB went to an FEH early this year and was told she needed 'more muscling.' She was not yet 3 years old at the time. The horses who placed well that day were the heavier types and I don't expect to see them in the ULs of eventing in a few years. Or ever.

        (Her older half-sister (13/16ths TB), who just came 2nd in her first Intermediate at age 7, would not have fared well in the YEH. She doesn't overjump and she doesn't snap her knees up unless she needs to, which is rarely -- which is not unusual for an athletic horse. She was also not into dressage at that age and was very immature physically.)

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by JER View Post
          The second-placed 5 year-old is by Catherston Dazzler (5/8ths TB) out of an ISH mare so he probably is close to 3/4 TB.

          The YEH judges, IIRC, were (1) a German FEI judge, (2) an American Hannoverian breeder and (3) an American Hannoverian breeder. Might have something to do with it -- something about the poodle judge choosing the poodle for Best in Show.

          My 3 year-old TB went to an FEH early this year and was told she needed 'more muscling.' She was not yet 3 years old at the time. The horses who placed well that day were the heavier types and I don't expect to see them in the ULs of eventing in a few years. Or ever.

          (Her older half-sister (13/16ths TB), who just came 2nd in her first Intermediate at age 7, would not have fared well in the YEH. She doesn't overjump and she doesn't snap her knees up unless she needs to, which is rarely -- which is not unusual for an athletic horse. She was also not into dressage at that age and was very immature physically.)
          subk got me thinking about this mismatch after the YEH/FEH event in GA...would be interesting to get the judges, the trainers, the riders, the owners all to also give their perspectives...

          at the same time, I know one of the winning horses quite well, dam side is TB and sire is dressage, don't know the line, may well have some TB though as many of the European dressage lines do. Point is, THIS horse can and will GALLOP like a TB, WANTS to gallop, and DOES, Yes, he has fancy gaits, and yes he snaps his knees when he jumps, but damn y'all, so does my little OTTB Rasta, up round his eyeballs! And check his pedigree - 1/2 brother won the Derby!

          I do get what you're clearly pointing out though, subk...is this a "poodle show" or are the YEH breeders a real source for REAL event horses...or is the dismal opposite the sad reality...eventing future's is as real as reality tv... sigh.
          ~ it no longer matters what level I do, as long as I am doing it..~ with many thanks, to Elizabeth Callahan

          Comment


          • #6
            Well I saw most of the 5 year olds at the YEH Finals. The top 5...including my own...were not heavy horses by any means. My guy may only have one full TB parent but his warmblood sire isn't a heavy warmblood.

            You don't ride pedigree....you ride the individual. And most of the 5 year olds that I saw at the finals were the right type....not heavy, good movers, good jumpers and good gallops (although I may be biased....my guy had the best gallop...gets that from his TB mama I'm sure).

            Now I didn't necessarily agree with all the scores....I do agree that these were some nice horses and most of them you would not kick out of your barn as an UL event prospect.
            ** Tact is the ability to tell someone to go to hell in such a way that they look forward to the trip. ~Winston Churchill? **

            Comment


            • #7
              I don't mean to criticize the actual judging/results. I didn't see the horses except for in the photos on the USEA blog (I have to say I found the dressage photos more informative than the jumping photos).

              My point is that the judging had a bias toward WBs. Why not have a TB or even an ISH/British Sport Horse (by this I mean the trad 3/4- to 7/8ths-bred eventer) expert in the mix? Or a proven dealer/producer of UL eventers? There's a lot we all could learn from the musings of a David Hopper or a Vere Phillips or a Sandra Low-Mitchell -- these are people whose success in the horse world is due to their ability to judge young prospects.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by JER View Post
                I don't mean to criticize the actual judging/results. I didn't see the horses except for in the photos on the USEA blog (I have to say I found the dressage photos more informative than the jumping photos).

                My point is that the judging had a bias toward WBs. Why not have a TB or even an ISH/British Sport Horse (by this I mean the trad 3/4- to 7/8ths-bred eventer) expert in the mix? Or a proven dealer/producer of UL eventers? There's a lot we all could learn from the musings of a David Hopper or a Vere Phillips or a Sandra Low-Mitchell -- these are people whose success in the horse world is due to their ability to judge young prospects.
                I would have been thrilled to have them judge the horses. End of the day though...it is just one person's opinion. What will be interesting is to watch these horses progress and see what they become. It is all a crap shoot IMO....gamble with the breeding, and then you need to get them into the right hands to produce them...and then you need to keep them from hurting themselves (my biggest battle).

                My guy wasn't prepped for the finals by any means....had 2 months off and was just starting back into work. I did it because it was in my back yard....and thought it would be a good experience for him (and it was).
                ** Tact is the ability to tell someone to go to hell in such a way that they look forward to the trip. ~Winston Churchill? **

                Comment


                • #9
                  Yah, I was wondering this too...I took my TB mare into a 4 year old class - I had never been to one prior and wasn't aware that the jumps would be upped and an FEI dressage judge would be used, so we weren't ready and didn't place well, but this is besides the point. All the top placed horses were warmbloods. Though they presented a nice dressage test and had perfect form over fences, they were hugely built didn't have the conformation or the stamina of a TB or a finer horse similar to a TB. A Trakehner I can understand - they possess a lot of arab/TB in their lines and the good ones are more athletic (note: the good ones).

                  The bigger the body = the more blood has to be pumped through = the more the heart has to work. If you can't get the blood their fast enough going into the final stages of a four star, then that is where the problems start. The cells don't get enough energy going to them because of the heart, the production of much needed 'ingredients' is slowed and that causes less and less needed 'ingredients' to get through the body. Big problem. Plus the WB is not built for speed, endurance and excessive agility, again - big problem.

                  I think we are looking for good hunters or dressage horses, perhaps lower-level eventing champions. I'm a sucker for a nice WB/TB that is fancy but not built like a transport truck. Certain WBs can do it, but most can't. Do we really want to take that chance?

                  Comment

                  • Original Poster

                    #10
                    I have no issue with any single horse...I'm sure they were all lovely. I have no reason to believe that the horses weren't judged to standard. (Although all the German representation in the judging stuns me on so many different levels!) But if the goal is to produce UL horses it is certainly fair to view the results as trends compared to the real deal. If the directives and standards are accurate then shouldn't results bear just a little similarity to the actual standard they represent? I think that's a fair question.

                    It is also not a question of the age for TBs coming off the track. There are plenty competing in the series--especially the YEH compared to the FEH--but as a group they just don't do well.

                    Originally posted by JER View Post
                    My 3 year-old TB went to an FEH early this year and was told she needed 'more muscling.' She was not yet 3 years old at the time. The horses who placed well that day were the heavier types and I don't expect to see them in the ULs of eventing in a few years. Or ever.
                    In hindsight, on my OP I probably should have disclosed that I did show my own TB in a FEH this year. Marginal results, except I came home with exact same the horse as if I'd had my pick of the bunch...

                    JER, I also got the "could show more muscling over topline but particularly thru neck" comment. Of course that is exactly the directives: "neck well muscled over topline." TBs do not come out of the womb like WBs with a topline, they develop it with work. Of course those same genes that create the instant topline also tend to create similar bulk elsewhere that is a distinct disadvantage galloping.

                    Of two things I'm certain: 1) A TB has a better chance of overcoming his classic TB characteristics than a WB has of overcoming it's classic WB characteristics. 2) In the real world if you want the *very best* chance of an UL horse you don't start with a young horse that is less than 1/2 or 3/4 TB.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by bornfreenowexpensive View Post
                      I would have been thrilled to have them judge the horses. End of the day though...it is just one person's opinion. What will be interesting is to watch these horses progress and see what they become. It is all a crap shoot IMO....gamble with the breeding, and then you need to get them into the right hands to produce them...and then you need to keep them from hurting themselves (my biggest battle).
                      .
                      the bottom line is...the bolded print above is the bottom line to judge if ithe YEH is a poodle show or a pool of possible US bred event horses...wait and see.
                      ~ it no longer matters what level I do, as long as I am doing it..~ with many thanks, to Elizabeth Callahan

                      Comment

                      • Original Poster

                        #12
                        Actually, I think it will be more telling to see how well the TBs in the series do after they've been pinned low in the series. I don't doubt that many of the WBs doing well in the series are quality UL candidates. What I wonder is are the TBs being discounted for classic TB qualities that in the real world are an asset at the ULs.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by subk View Post
                          Actually, I think it will be more telling to see how well the TBs in the series do after they've been pinned low in the series. I don't doubt that many of the WBs doing well in the series are quality UL candidates. What I wonder is are the TBs being discounted for classic TB qualities that in the real world are an asset at the ULs.
                          In the long run, does it really matter how well the TBs are pinned in the YEH or FEH if they continue to run and jump well in the events...

                          pretty is as pretty does...might hold very well in eventing.
                          ~ it no longer matters what level I do, as long as I am doing it..~ with many thanks, to Elizabeth Callahan

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Good thread. I noticed the same thing and was mildly PO'ed by the results of the YEH classes.

                            Time will be the only judge of whether the continental European style WBs will take over modern eventing to the same extent that they have taken over the Young Horse competitions.

                            And I do agree that having a British or Irish judge would be a good thing, since their horses do tend to dominate eventing.
                            "I'm a lumberjack, and I'm okay."
                            Thread killer Extraordinaire

                            Comment

                            • Original Poster

                              #15
                              Originally posted by RunForIt View Post
                              In the long run, does it really matter how well the TBs are pinned in the YEH or FEH if they continue to run and jump well in the events...
                              Not to the TBs, but I think it does matter to the breeding series a great deal. If we want a series that is viable, healthy and contributes to the sport it is indeed important for it to reflect the real world of UL eventing. If it doesn't it's just a poodle show...

                              Comment


                              • #16
                                Originally posted by subk View Post
                                Not to the TBs, but I think it does matter to the breeding series a great deal. If we want a series that is viable, healthy and contributes to the sport it is indeed important for it to reflect the real world of UL eventing. If it doesn't it's just a poodle show...
                                Right you are!
                                It looks to me like WB breeders will benefit from this, and eventing will not.
                                At least not at the UL, in the international arena, against tough, scrappy TBs/primarily TB crosses.

                                I'm not anti-WB, there are many crossbreds (maybe like bornfree's?) that will be capable of rising to the occasion, and not everyone who wants to event wants to, or needs ride a TB, but time and again, it seems to be the TB breeding at the top of the heap, at *** and ****. There they will be, long slim necked pirates and barflies, happily eating poodles for breakfast.
                                What would you try if you knew you would not fail?

                                Comment


                                • #17
                                  Originally posted by RunForIt View Post
                                  In the long run, does it really matter how well the TBs are pinned in the YEH or FEH if they continue to run and jump well in the events...
                                  If we're going to have this series, why not make it a valuable asset to US eventing? Why not use it as a venue for evaluating eventing prospects in terms of how real-life event horses are selected? There are people out there with so much expertise and experience -- why aren't we picking their brains?

                                  And I very much agree with subk on the differences between a WBx and a full TB. They look different and develop differently.

                                  I'm tired of seeing TBs advertised with qualifiers like 'looks like a WB!', 'everyone thinks he's a WB!' and 'WB looks and movement!.' What does that tell us? Why is it that we don't want our TBs to look like TBs? Is there anything more heart-stopping than a quality TB?

                                  Years ago, I rode my TB mare (the mother of my young horses) in a dressage test with General Burton as judge. When I finished my test, he said "Finally, a REAL horse!" and proceeded to ask me about my mare. He ended with "You MUST breed this one."

                                  My mare, for the record, has never been 'mistaken' for a WB. And I wouldn't want it any other way.

                                  Comment


                                  • #18
                                    Excellent point, thanks for posting the stats. This is exactly as predicted when we started the program(s) (I'm including FEH in my comments as well). I requested a post audit of results (e.g., correlate young horse results with career attainment) to be a part of the formal plan, but was voted down.

                                    Both FEH and YEH are good programs which deserve to be supported. But don't expect them to predict future upper level achievements.

                                    Comment


                                    • #19
                                      Maybe it will end up that the YEH is more like an AKC dog show and actual eventing results will be more in line with a high level dog agility or obedience trial- what wins at the first may not be what can win at the second......especially when the tests get demanding.....
                                      Be a part of the solution~ Adopt a thoroughbred!
                                      MidAtlanticHorseRescue.org

                                      Comment


                                      • #20
                                        Just because it says it's a warmblood doesn't mean that it doesn't have a whack of tb in there somewhere. Mine is big, looks like a wb from the side and is mostly TB in his bloodlines. Registered KWPN.

                                        Comment

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