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"What if" rules question #2 - jump judge stops rider inappropriately

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  • "What if" rules question #2 - jump judge stops rider inappropriately

    Suppose you're part way through your x-c course and you discover the jump judge for the fence you are approaching standing in front of the fence, blocking your way and informing you that you have been eliminated for missing the previous fence...

    Clearly, you have NOT yet been eliminated, because you have not yet jumped the fence following the one that you missed.

    But the jump judge has given you unauthorized assistance by telling you that you've missed a fence.

    What do you do?
    Approved helmet: Every time; every ride.
    "When a sport gets to be predictable it ceases to be fun." - RAR's wise brother

  • #2
    The only time I would do that, as a jump judge is if the radio told me to stop the rider. Yes, you are right, technically you haven't jumped the next jump yet, but if they are having to stop you in front of the next fence...come on, you had planned to jump it, hadn't you?

    If the rider hadn't planned to jump the fence, it would be obvious.

    To tell you the truth, those sort of calls NEVER come over the radio when I have been a jump judge. Those are the sort of E's that happen in scoring. We are mostly told when the rider has had four stops and that we need to stop a rider.

    Have you jump judged and had this happen to you?

    Comment


    • #3
      This is a good question. Clearly jump judges are requested not to give this information as the rider should only be eliminated if they actually jump the fences out of order.

      I would like to hear other answers in general.

      I had a similar problem when a facilites summer campers were the jump judges. The girls at each fence must have been between the ages of 10-14 with minimal instruction. There were several problems throughout the day in all divisions with different riders. After 1 stop at the water complex and then leaping through it I made my way to a few other obstacles and then up a large hill to a ramp. As I got within 10 strides I saw the small jump judge jump up from her chair, at 5 strides she was in front of the fence, I yelled "heads up", and she said "stop your eliminated!". I circled around her at the canter and then trotted and said "I've only had one stop how am I eliminated?". The small girl simply replied "It's one stop and your out!" I ended up walking off the course to the TD. The TD felt awful and gave me two choices-either to continue from where I was stopped or to retire. I ended up retiring because my horse had been so good that day at his first event that I did not want to risk it by going back out and turning it into a bad situation for him.
      "Want to ride for fun? Ride a carousel."-Gina Miles

      Comment


      • #4
        I agree with Hannahsmom, I've been jump judging all over Area 1 for years and never experienced anything like this. They always tell us that unless there's a safety issue to not stop the rider, and if we DO stop the rider, we have to time and note it. So even if someone did stop you they should be making a record of the time, and so should you! Hopefully you can sort things out and be on your merry way and have your time adjusted on the other end once you finish your round.

        Comment

        • Original Poster

          #5
          This happened today in the BN at Flagstaff (Spring Coconino Horse Trials - recognized show). Apparently the jump judge at the fence following the one that the rider had missed heard the jump judge at the previous fence report over the radio that the fence had been missed. And took it upon him/herself to stop the rider.

          So it was jump judge error.**

          The rider's response was along the lines of "Oops!" because she knew she truly had missed the fence. All she wanted to do was go back & jump the fence she had missed and continue on, accepting her elimination. She is new to eventing and was having a good time and just wanted a good experience for her horse. They let her do that, but she did get der big "E".

          So it was all good in the end from the organizer's point of view.

          But...

          With a more aggressive rider and/or a more aggressive trainer, looking to cause a stink... couldn't the rider have protested having been stopped inappropriately and demanded that she be allowed to continue, with some time adjustment for the delay caused by the jump judge's error?


          ** Many of our judges, bless their hearts, are not experienced eventers, and many of them are young. But they're willing to sit out there with their clipboards & pencils & radios, thereby allowing the show to take place. So I think that for the most part, people cut them slack if they goof up. But the organizers also try not to disadvantage the riders.
          Approved helmet: Every time; every ride.
          "When a sport gets to be predictable it ceases to be fun." - RAR's wise brother

          Comment


          • #6
            EventingDiva, that's terrible! This was at a recognized horse trials?? While clearly it's a great idea to get kids involved in volunteering and giving back to their sport from an early age, there's a time and a place for that - and it's not where they'll be interfering with competitors' rides because they don't know the rules.

            As for the original post - clearly the jump judge has made an error there because you're NOT eliminated yet. Hannahsmom is right that it was probably clear that you were planning on jumping the fence, but they still can't preemptively eliminate you... Hopefully they would have marked down the time, and perhaps you could ask the jump judge to radio the TD to ask him/her how to handle the situation from there?

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Risk-Averse Rider View Post
              This happened today in the BN at Flagstaff. Apparently the jump judge at the fence following the one that the rider had missed heard the jump judge at the previous fence report over the radio that the fence had been missed. And took it upon him/herself to stop the rider.

              So it was jump judge error.**

              The rider's response was along the lines of "Oops!" because she knew she truly had missed the fence. All she wanted to do was go back & jump the fence she had missed and continue on, accepting her elimination. She is new to eventing and was having a good time and just wanted a good experience for her horse. They let her do that, but she did get der big "E".

              So it was all good in the end from the organizer's point of view.

              But...

              With a more aggressive rider and/or a more aggressive trainer, looking to cause a stink... couldn't the rider have protested having been stopped inappropriately and demanded that she be allowed to continue, with some time adjustment for the delay caused by the jump judge's error?


              ** Many of our judges, bless their hearts, are not experienced eventers, and many of them are young. But they're willing to sit out there with their clipboards & pencils & radios, thereby allowing the show to take place. So I think that for the most part, people cut them slack if they goof up. But the organizers also try not to disadvantage the riders.
              Okay, this is more a situation for the jump judge's briefing. Let them know they are not to 'take it on themselves' to make this kind of call. Unless the CONTROLLER tells them to do something, or the TD tells them to do something, or the PREZ of the ground Jury, tells them to do something, then they are just to deal with their specific jump. I know what you are saying about 'bless their hearts' for willing to be sitting out there so the briefing needs to be more specific to tell them what to NOT do. You don't want to disappoint the competitors so I always err on giving the benefit of the doubt but I have often found jump judge briefings to be very poor (spoken as an upper level competitor). So the better the briefing, the better informed these well intentioned volunteers will be.

              Comment

              • Original Poster

                #8
                Originally posted by Hannahsmom View Post
                Okay, this is more a situation for the jump judge's briefing. Let them know they are not to 'take it on themselves' to make this kind of call. Unless the CONTROLLER tells them to do something, or the TD tells them to do something, or the PREZ of the ground Jury, tells them to do something, then they are just to deal with their specific jump. I know what you are saying about 'bless their hearts' for willing to be sitting out there so the briefing needs to be more specific to tell them what to NOT do. You don't want to disappoint the competitors so I always err on giving the benefit of the doubt but I have often found jump judge briefings to be very poor (spoken as an upper level competitor). So the better the briefing, the better informed these well intentioned volunteers will be.
                I fully agree - this should have been addressed in the jump judge briefing. And maybe it was, and this judge missed the briefing, or was at the briefing and zoned out, or... any of a number of unfortunate circumstances.

                It should not have happened.

                But it DID happen.

                Things happen that shouldn't happen (and really, on a scale of 1 to a rotational fall, being stopped inappropriately on a BN course is pretty minor, isn't it?).

                It seems to me that what happened in EventingDiva's situation is what the outcome should be - the TD/PoGJ/whoever is in charge of these things should give the rider the option to continue or retire (vs. getting eliminated).

                But what do I know? That's why I'm asking here
                Approved helmet: Every time; every ride.
                "When a sport gets to be predictable it ceases to be fun." - RAR's wise brother

                Comment


                • #9
                  My situation was at a recognized event. The kid felt terrible too and was crying-she thought she was doing the right thing. I agree-there is a time and a place.

                  As for the original post I also think that unless you were told to hold that rider or call them off the fence then it's not your place to do. Once that rider had jumped the jump, it should have been called as an elimination and the following jump judge should have called her off for going off course. Jump judge briefings are short. Those who are unsure of a call out in the field need to radio in and say "this is the situation ... , what should I do?". I'm so thankful for the volunteers at events, but I urge all the make sure they attend the jump judge briefing and feel free to radio in with questions.
                  "Want to ride for fun? Ride a carousel."-Gina Miles

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Not my experience

                    I've been jump judging for 3 seasons now, many different events in Area IV and have never witnessed an incident in which the JJ stopped a rider inappropriately. All the briefings I've been to have been very informative and educational, and we always hear that the controller needs to tell a JJ to stop a rider, unless we have 3 disobediences in our jump, or if the rider has accumulated 3 disobediences prior to our jump (but again, radioed by the controller).

                    One JJ saw a rider mistakenly attempt the Training jump next to the Novice one he was supposed to do, and she had to watch him try it 3 times, with 3 refusals, and she still couldn't tell him anything because up until then he wasn't eliminated. Only after he started walking off the course, thinking he was eliminated, she was able to radio in the situation but did not say a word to the rider, as it'd have been unauthorized assistance.

                    I guess the situation described by the OP is uncommon, at least in our area.
                    ___________________________________________
                    "Another member of the Barefoot Eventers Clique"

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      So was he eliminated? I guess not as that was not his jump. But if he didn't realize it and did not proceed to the Novice jump then he would be eliminated right? I jumped a Training level once instead of the Novice but realized it and turned and did the Novice so all was well.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re flea's question ... at what point would the rider have been eliminated? I would guess if he never returned to finish the course, it would be when twice the opt. time had elapsed.

                        Could anyone legally tell him before he was eliminated? I would guess not. If he wandered back to his supporters and they screamed "get back on course!" that would be unauthorized assistance ... ?

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Over-The supporters could not tell the rider to get back on course. That would be unauthorized assistance. I've seen this happen before when the riders forgot to cross through the finish flags, get to the crowd, and someone yells "YOU FORGOT THE FLAGS!" Unfortunatly while the rider may have had the ride of their life, I've seen them be eliminated. It's the riders responsibility to know that course (from starting box to finish flags) before they set out.
                          Last edited by EventingDiva; May. 31, 2009, 11:52 PM. Reason: wrong spelling :(
                          "Want to ride for fun? Ride a carousel."-Gina Miles

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by OverandOnward View Post
                            Re flea's question ... at what point would the rider have been eliminated? I would guess if he never returned to finish the course, it would be when twice the opt. time had elapsed.

                            Could anyone legally tell him before he was eliminated? I would guess not. If he wandered back to his supporters and they screamed "get back on course!" that would be unauthorized assistance ... ?
                            I believe you are correct (twice the optimum time) altho it may have been when they went thru the finish flags without trying to get back on course. To be on the safe side, I never tell a rider (as a JJ) that they are eliminated. Only scorers can score.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              I was JJ at an event where a rider missed their fence but had not yet taken the "next" fence. The announcer made a comment about the rider missing the fence. The rider then promptly turned around and picked up the "missed" fence and kept going. The rider was not E as it was decided it was not unauthorized assistance but a failure on the part of show management.
                              No one can make you feel inferior without your consent. - Eleanor Roosevelt
                              For you to insult me, I must first value your opinion - Unknown
                              Pleasure Portrait 1989-2016...sleep well my girl

                              Comment


                              • #16
                                Originally posted by Where'sMyWhite View Post
                                I was JJ at an event where a rider missed their fence but had not yet taken the "next" fence. The announcer made a comment about the rider missing the fence. The rider then promptly turned around and picked up the "missed" fence and kept going. The rider was not E as it was decided it was not unauthorized assistance but a failure on the part of show management.
                                Isn't this kinda what happened to Bruce at Rolex? Or did I make up that he heard the announcer call it a refusal and then turn around and re-jump it?
                                “And live like you ain’t afraid to die. And don’t be scared, just enjoy your ride.” Chris Ledoux ~ The Ride

                                Comment


                                • #17
                                  From the rule book
                                  EV138.8.c.
                                  Officials or spectators who draw the attention of a competitor to a deviation from the
                                  course are giving unauthorized assistance which may result in the elimination of the
                                  competitor.
                                  d. Each case of unauthorized assistance will be decided by the Ground Jury.
                                  I know at least one case where an official (finish timer), without thinking, saw a rider missing the finish flags, and pointed to the finish flags. The rider circled round to go through the finish flags.

                                  The rider WAS eliminated for unauthorized assistance.
                                  Janet

                                  chief feeder and mucker for Music, Spy, Belle and Tiara. Someone else is now feeding and mucking for Chief and Brain (both foxhunting now).

                                  Comment


                                  • #18
                                    Originally posted by LR1976 View Post
                                    Isn't this kinda what happened to Bruce at Rolex? Or did I make up that he heard the announcer call it a refusal and then turn around and re-jump it?
                                    A little different
                                    EV138.9. AUTHORIZED ASSISTANCE.
                                    a. Headgear or spectacles may be handed to a competitor at any time.
                                    b. A competitor may receive clarification of jumping penalties from an obstacle judge,
                                    e.g. after jumping a flag at a corner, the judge may clarify whether it was a run-out or
                                    not.
                                    The rule says "obstacle judge", not "announcer", but the spirit is the same.
                                    Janet

                                    chief feeder and mucker for Music, Spy, Belle and Tiara. Someone else is now feeding and mucking for Chief and Brain (both foxhunting now).

                                    Comment


                                    • #19
                                      Originally posted by OverandOnward View Post
                                      Re flea's question ... at what point would the rider have been eliminated? I would guess if he never returned to finish the course, it would be when twice the opt. time had elapsed.

                                      Could anyone legally tell him before he was eliminated? I would guess not. If he wandered back to his supporters and they screamed "get back on course!" that would be unauthorized assistance ... ?
                                      Either Eliminated on Time, or it could be considered "Retired on course".

                                      No, no one can tell him.
                                      Janet

                                      chief feeder and mucker for Music, Spy, Belle and Tiara. Someone else is now feeding and mucking for Chief and Brain (both foxhunting now).

                                      Comment

                                      • Original Poster

                                        #20
                                        In my next life, I want to be Janet

                                        (Seriously, Janet - I really admire your grasp of the rules.)
                                        Approved helmet: Every time; every ride.
                                        "When a sport gets to be predictable it ceases to be fun." - RAR's wise brother

                                        Comment

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