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Tragedies at Southern Pines

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  • Tragedies at Southern Pines

    1
    Last edited by Fairview Horse Center; Jan. 26, 2014, 01:51 PM.

  • #2
    Whoa. I don't know who you have been talking to, but I have definately been taught to see a distance. You might be refering to the fact that riding cross country, eventers typically don't look for distances but rather ride the rythem and ride to the base of the fence. The base is the safest place to leave from when jumping a solid obstacle, but you had better believe that we don't get there by accident. Riding to the base is a skill like any other.

    Also, eventers are taught to balance and collect their horses, to stay balanced in the air, to sit back and tight, to ride forward. These, too, are basics.

    I'm sorry you had a long night, but please don't attack eventers across the board or try to pick a fight. It's not constructive, it's not helpful, and it is not fair to those of us who work very hard at riding well.

    I'm attaching a picture of my mare and I at an event last summer. Please let me know if you don't think I've mastered the basics enough to ride safely. --Jess

    Comment


    • #3
      OK, let me get this straight.....Mark Todd is the only one?

      Superheroes of the universe, unite!

      http://hometown.aol.com/bgoosewood/index.html
      The truth is rarely pure, and never simple. Oscar Wilde

      Comment


      • #4
        Pass that box over here...

        IMHO, you're trying to compare apples to oranges. Granted, they're both fruit that grow on trees, but still....

        If you're talking about SJ, then I would agree with you. Eventers by and large could use a dose of the H/J circuit in their riding. however, when you start talking about riding XC, you're dealing with a whole new ballgame. When H/J riders can "pick their spot" to a ditch & wall, or water complex, or coffin or drop where the horse can't see the landing until 2 strides out while galloping (not cantering!) over uneven terrain... then we'll talk. Until then, find a new peeve please... because eventers are taught when on XC, the basis to any good jump is to maintain the appropriate rhythm and balance for the fence and LET THE HORSE find the jump. Yes there are times when you need to "get him in close"... but again that is more a factor of the rhythm and balance than it is being able to count from 8 strides away. [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif[/img]

        PS. JAGold... great pic! Time to start learning that auto release though... [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif[/img]

        If Dressage is a Symphony... Eventing is Rock & Roll!

        Survivor thoughts -- Episode 3 recap... OMG!! NOT HUNTER!!! [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif[/img] [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_mad.gif[/img] And the tribal suicide continues... [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif[/img] Remember we're on Wednesday this week!
        ************
        "Of course it's hard. It's supposed to be hard. It's the Hard that makes it great."

        "Get up... Get out... Get Drunk. Repeat as needed." -- Spike

        Comment


        • #5
          TLE--yes, but this post was about the basics [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif[/img]

          I do agree that a following hand is generally useful for cross country, but this mare (who was 15 when that picture was taken and not likely to change her jumping style at that point) was very high headed. While a properly executed automatic release should not restrict a high-headed jumper or affect that style of jumping any more than it affects a horse who is more technically correct, my trainer and various clinicians felt that a crest release was appropriate in this situation.

          --Jess

          Comment


          • #6
            There is no such thing as a spot. There are an infinite number of places from which a horse can jump. Riding an appropriate pace that is balanced will get you over every time. When you start looking for a spot and start fiddling with your horse, you usually get into trouble. Ride forward, and ride the rhythm and you'll usually be fine.

            That being said, comfortable "spots" do exist, but I think it is ignorant to say that eventers are not "taught" to find them. Many eventers start out h/j and then end up eventing. Many eventers regularly ride with h/j trainers for help in stadium.

            [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif[/img]

            Why can't my horse just be normal?? [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif[/img]

            Comment


            • #7
              Oy vey. Get some sleep. I agree with TLE that many eventers could use some work on their SJ, but just because we don't count 3-2-1 on X-C doesn't mean we are looking for a distance. Oh, and another thing. Saying that 10-year olds on ponys can count out 6 even, 10-foot strides down the outside line to their next fence is TOTALLY not the same thing as galloping up and down hills. But don't think that we don't know how to get to the base of our fences.

              Comment


              • #8
                Normally I do not get involved in these discussions, but I find the original post to be ignorant and offensive. I can give a long list of examples of riders who are trained to see distances and do it very well. This is the basis of most SJ sessions at clinics that I have been involved in. Also included are exercises to compress and lengthen strides between related distances. Although the practice is different on XC, the basic technique is the same. If anyone thinks that upper level riders galloping into fences are not seeing a distance 3-5 strides out, they are kidding themselves. Lack of sleep is not an excuse for an attack based on opinion rather than fact. Do your homework.

                Comment


                • #9
                  <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Eventers don't "look for distances" because they don't know how. No one ever taught them that it was the basic requirement of jumping. They ride rhythm, and if they don't "happen" to be at the base "in stride" they "pat the ground" to add another tiny stride so they can take of from the base. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

                  Fairview... do you have the slightest idea of how ridiculous, rude and flat out prejudice this sounds? Not to mention the previous comment about how 10yos can do this and that but those poor uneducated eventers... PULLEEZE! Give us all a break and go get some sleep. Others have commented about how a "spot" on XC works... it just IS NOT the same as H/J.

                  JAGOLD -- nah... I was just joking around with you. Really, it's a great photo and you look wonderfully in tune with the horse. [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif[/img]

                  If Dressage is a Symphony... Eventing is Rock & Roll!

                  Survivor thoughts -- Episode 3 recap... OMG!! NOT HUNTER!!! [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif[/img] [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_mad.gif[/img] And the tribal suicide continues... [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif[/img] Remember we're on Wednesday this week!
                  ************
                  "Of course it's hard. It's supposed to be hard. It's the Hard that makes it great."

                  "Get up... Get out... Get Drunk. Repeat as needed." -- Spike

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Ok,

                    I just posted a comment on the other thread about the unfairness of generalizing...

                    I ride jumpers. I've seen great riders of all disciplines. One of the best I've ever met at riding a horse effectively and accurately to a fence, is a former eventer turned jumper.

                    It seems to meet that eventing places a premium on rhythm -- makes sense since a horse can jump just about anything from anywhere if they are galloping in a good rhythm. True in jumpers too.

                    Hunters also place a premium on rhythm -- it seems that a good, consistent cantering rhythm results in a nice, even round.

                    See -- not so far apart. I think y'all can learn a lot from each other.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      TLE -- fair enough [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif[/img] I think the topic has me feeling a bit defensive!

                      I don't really want to get involved in comparing the abilities of one group of riders to another, mostly because generalizing and assuming tends to make an ASS of U and ME. Riders are individuals, there are good and bad in every dicipline.

                      However, it seems relevant to note that a number of eventers participated in HITS this winter and did very well. How many jumper riders want to come out and play our game with us? --Jess

                      PS. I have ridden pony hunters and showed a small junior in high school. I did a bit of age-group eq -- on my event horse. Fairview, how many eventers DO you know, when you say that you don't know many who have been taught to find a spot?

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        OK, this thread has me more irritated than finding out that FLA is not allow gays to adopt children...eirrrrghe

                        OK, here's an exert from Steuart Pittman's web page about a demonstration he saw. You don't think these people can "find a spot"??? [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_mad.gif[/img]

                        http://www.dodonfarm.com/Essay%202.html

                        Superheroes of the universe, unite!

                        http://hometown.aol.com/bgoosewood/index.html
                        The truth is rarely pure, and never simple. Oscar Wilde

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          FHC, if you properly ride the rhythm to the fence (this means you have enough impulsion), you will almost always meet the fence at an appropriate distance.

                          This 'patting the ground' business is something completely new to me. If you mean that eventers think it's ok to chip, I personally don't know who would agree with that. Like in the tiny h/j classes, you can get away with it at BN or even N, but this would be extremely dangerous at a solid fence at 3' or higher. You would more than 'pat' the ground and so might the horse.

                          I do both straight SJ and eventing. I have a French trainer who demands that you ride the rhythm and correctly (this means enough pace and impulsion always). This is how he rides showjumpers at the World Cup level. We do not pick spots, but we do see distances and we keep riding forward. You know if the distance is good or bad and then you get the heck out of your horse's way to let him make the best jump possible.

                          As for stride counting, it's like sheep counting unless you know how to longitudinally adjust a horse well before the fence. I can count from 16 strides out, I can count from 8 strides out -- this is because I've developed an eye. But if I want to do 8, I'd better tell that to the horse when I start counting from 8. Then you ride the rhythm to the fence. I'm not looking for 'spots', I'm looking for my next fence.

                          One thing I'd like to add is in eventing, courses are usually up to height. Not so in my experience in SJ -- at A shows, we've had classes listed as 3'6" to 3'9" in which no fence is over 3'. And God help these AA riders if the fences were any higher, but I guess they go home thinking they're competitive at the 3'6"-3'9" level, and they're trainers continue to let them believe it.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Most event riders I know and I've hired some to do the training of my young horses are excellent at knowing the distances. But your BRAG about H/J kids knowing the distances may apply to the show ring on the flat - but the majority of those same kids couldn't manage a course outside on uneven terrain with NON-horse show looking jumps if their life depended on it. It's a lot easier to gage a distance on the flat in a ring relative to a contained area. - Not so outside, cross country at a GALLOP.

                            Let's be fair. When horses are injured or die it's a sad thing but unless their was some human error or negligence - it's going to happen. Stress fractures can happen on horses - of course they are often more devestating when they are galloping cross country than trotting in a ring. Horses hitting a fence wrong and dying....well GEE - we had a huge discussion last year over a horse that hit a pipe and was impaled in FLA last winter during a lesson given by George Morris.!!!

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>However, it seems relevant to note that a number of eventers participated in HITS this winter and did very well. How many jumper riders want to come out and play our game with us? --Jess<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


                              OHHHHH... I like that!! Great idea Jess. Any takers? Fairview?

                              If Dressage is a Symphony... Eventing is Rock & Roll!

                              Survivor thoughts -- Episode 3 recap... OMG!! NOT HUNTER!!! [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif[/img] [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_mad.gif[/img] And the tribal suicide continues... [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif[/img] Remember we're on Wednesday this week!
                              ************
                              "Of course it's hard. It's supposed to be hard. It's the Hard that makes it great."

                              "Get up... Get out... Get Drunk. Repeat as needed." -- Spike

                              Comment


                              • #16
                                I just wanted to say that I HAVE been taught by several event riders to see my spot, counting down from 3, 6 or even 8 strides out. To name a few of these instructors, Denny Emerson, Wash Bishop, Jack Legoff, Suzi Gornall, Lucinda Green and Jane Hamlin. By the way, I also watched Denny ride a couple of different horses counting aloud his strides from 12 out, and EVERY time he nailed it perfectly. So Mark Todd is the only one?

                                Comment


                                • #17
                                  I don't know what eventers you've been talking to, but I definitely learned my distances. I agree with tle that eventers could learn a lot from jumper riders, and thus I attended many clinics with top jumper riders and took an occasional lesson from a top GP jumper at a nearby barn.

                                  One reason you might see a lot of horses take off from funny distances in XC is because we are dealing with a WHOLE heck of a lot more than "finding the perfect distance." Not to belittle hunters, I used to ride hunters, but it's a lot easier when your course is "inside outside outside inside", and you know there are supposed to be 6 strides here, 5 here (depending on your horses/pony's stride, of course). On the XC course we are dealing with uneven terrain, hills, water, banks, drops, bounces, etc and trying to make time. I, not being a top rider (I have only done 2 3-days) tried very hard and was taught to collect before the fence and approach it in the middle while still having momentum so as to find a good spot. But often in trying to hard to find that spot, I totally got in my horse's way. If I were not on him and he were pointed at that fence, he could quite easily find a spot on his own, or if not, hop right over it anyways. He saved my butt many times when i messed with him too much trying to find a spot, he NEVER stopped once in 6 years, and he pulled us out of sticky situations that i put us in.

                                  I agree with you that distances are something that need to be taught, but I think that it just shows how ignorant you are to say that Mark Todd is the only eventer who knows how to find distances.

                                  By the way, Jess, your mare is SOOO adorable, i want her!

                                  Comment


                                  • #18
                                    I'll let TLE defend herself... but I think this is an expression used to reinforce the need for rythym, forwardness, pace... it does not mean sit up there and do nothing.

                                    I think this thread is really ignorant. I'm done posting.

                                    Comment


                                    • #19
                                      yes, riley. our horses are more capable (at least mine was) than we give them credit for. but that does not mean sit up and do nothing. rhythm, forwardness, pace, and collection (impulsive collection, was KEY for me and my hot little tb).

                                      Cospi- same here! spent time with Wash and Jimmy Wofford. Counted strides, etc. Why would anyone say mark todd is the only on.

                                      Jess- Awesome. Lets see some of those jumper riders come tackle one of our xc course and put in a great dressage test (ok, so they might smoke us in the sj phase, but not necessarily!)

                                      Comment


                                      • #20
                                        a clinic with Denny...He emphasized finding your spots and counting strides the entire time!

                                        Always,
                                        FairWeather
                                        "Just call me mint jelly cuz i'm on the lamb!--Grandpa
                                        http://www.fairweather-farm.com

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