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Rules & Rule Proposal discussion!! (was: How about a de-caffinated conversation) (still long)

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  • Rules & Rule Proposal discussion!! (was: How about a de-caffinated conversation) (still long)

    Noting Reed's comment to my previous thread about rule changes, how about a *calm* discussion on rule changes. I promise I'll be calm...(er). [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif[/img] Here are a few and my interpretation (please correct me if I'm wrong). All proposed rule changes are available in PDF format from the USA Eq website. (any proposal I list where I don't list who proposed it came from the Eventing Committee and Roger Haller).

    Proposal 190-02 (proposed effective date 12/1/02) seems to take any errors in the dressage test and subtract them BEFORE dividing AND gives a new way to score. First, if adding in errors (or subtracting in this case) before dividing by the total possible points instead of after... wouldn't that make LESS of an impact on the score? Also the way the scoring seems to be proposed is pretty simple actually.... total good marks minus error divided by total possible multiplied by 100 gives you the percentage for that judge. To get penalties, that percentage (or an average over the number of judges) is simply subtracted from 100. EGADS! So instead of 156 good marks on a 200 point test being a 39 (156/200 * 100 * .5) it's a 22!!!! (156/200 * 100 subtracted from 100). Good god I might be able to break 40 afterall! [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif[/img] [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif[/img] Is this a good thing?

    Proposal 029-02 (proposed effective date 12/01/03) imposes elimination at the discretion of the ground jury for anyone who fails to report to the steward for inspection of saddlery (proposed by Canterlope).

    Proposal 070-02 (proposed effective date 12/01/03) discusses dressage saddlery requirements. This proposal suggests the addition of a bitless bridle be added to approved dressage tack, as well as elimination of the noseband requirement. Proposed by Sarah Gretchell.

    Proposal 001-02 (proposed effective date 12/01/03) allows for the use of a dressage whip at any time while on the flat, including during the dressage test. Proposed by Joan Fleser.

    Proposal 240-02 (proposed effective date 12/01/03) requires numbers to be worn at any time the horse is out of his stall or vehicle while on the grounds after 3:00pm of the day prior to the start of the competition. This falls into line with current FEI rules. It also states that repeat offenders "shall incur a fine of $50" at the discretion of the Ground Jury.

    Proposal 187-02 (proposed effective date 12/01/02) requires ASTM/SEI approved (or surpassed) helmets for all jumping phases... with harness secured of course.

    Proposal 244-02 (proposed effective date 12/01/03) changes the speeds as well as distances and number of obstacles (offering more of a range) for XC. Specifically it changes OT and adds the speed for Speed Faults. Ie: Novice goes to OT Speed of 400 and Speed Faults at 470. Training goes to OT Speed of 470 and Speed Fault Speed of 520. Evidently this is intended to allow people to school a lower course at the higher speed. But it also effectively makes all N and T courses harder since it has upped the OT Speed (currently 350 and 400 respectively). I thought Speed was a *problem*... this proposal seems to not see that fact... or am I missing something??

    Proposal 195-02 (proposed effective date 12/01/02) changes the penalties given in SJ. Dropping a rail would go from 5 to 4. First disobedience would go from 10 to 4 (can I say YUCK! a stop should be MORE than a careless toe!) and GULP! a 2nd disobedience would be ELIMINATION! Yep, no more 3 stops... you only get 1 "gimme" on the whole test... 2nd time and you're out! In addition, a fall of rider goes from 30 to a measly 8 points. [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_confused.gif[/img] Under Intent of Proposal it states that this brings it to "conform to 2002 FEI changes"... has anyone seen these??

    Proposal 192-02 (proposed effective date 12/01/02) goes back to the distinction between a stop at an obstacle with height and one without... allowing a standing jump at one without height. YEA!

    Last one... for now...

    Proposal 241-02 (proposed effective date 12/01/03) deals with dress rules for horse trials. A WHOLE bunch is proposed to change here!! Specifically the following 2 points:

    1. "A body protecting vest must be worn in teh cross-country and jumping tests... should pass or surpass the current ASTM standard F1937, certified by the Safety Equipment Institute." First, it says nothing about warmup. Second, EW! Wearing a vest in SJ??? *blech* And Third, what's with the "should" verbage? Either they write an effective rule or leave it alone!

    2. "Lighweight sportwear is appropriate for dressage, cross-country and jumping at Tests and Horse Trials. Long or short-sleeved shirts, with collars but without neckwear, breeches and boots, or jodhpurs and jodhpur boots, are required. STable, team or club colors are permitted. Chaps and leggings are not allowed, but half chaps and jodhpur boots may be permitted under special circumstances. In the event of inclement weather, appropriate outerwear including rain gear is permitted. Hunting dress or uniforms may be worn but they are not required at any Test or Horse Trial. Three-Day Events, which are conducted under FEI rules, still require hunting dress or uniforms in the dressage and jumping tests." [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif[/img] [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif[/img] [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif[/img] and may I also say EWW!!!! I can just see it now... ponies in pink, black horses in dressage being ridden with black breeches and boots, neon helmet covers back in SJ. BLECH!!! No offense to endurance, but I don't care to see that look in a dressage arena!! OMG!! [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif[/img] [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif[/img]

    Edited to change title per request

    ************
    If Dressage is a Symphony... Eventing is Rock & Roll!!!

    "All's well that ends with cute E.R. doctors, I always say." -- Buffy

    [This message was edited by tle on Oct. 09, 2002 at 08:59 AM.]
    ************
    "Of course it's hard. It's supposed to be hard. It's the Hard that makes it great."

    "Get up... Get out... Get Drunk. Repeat as needed." -- Spike
  • Original Poster

    #2
    Noting Reed's comment to my previous thread about rule changes, how about a *calm* discussion on rule changes. I promise I'll be calm...(er). [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif[/img] Here are a few and my interpretation (please correct me if I'm wrong). All proposed rule changes are available in PDF format from the USA Eq website. (any proposal I list where I don't list who proposed it came from the Eventing Committee and Roger Haller).

    Proposal 190-02 (proposed effective date 12/1/02) seems to take any errors in the dressage test and subtract them BEFORE dividing AND gives a new way to score. First, if adding in errors (or subtracting in this case) before dividing by the total possible points instead of after... wouldn't that make LESS of an impact on the score? Also the way the scoring seems to be proposed is pretty simple actually.... total good marks minus error divided by total possible multiplied by 100 gives you the percentage for that judge. To get penalties, that percentage (or an average over the number of judges) is simply subtracted from 100. EGADS! So instead of 156 good marks on a 200 point test being a 39 (156/200 * 100 * .5) it's a 22!!!! (156/200 * 100 subtracted from 100). Good god I might be able to break 40 afterall! [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif[/img] [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif[/img] Is this a good thing?

    Proposal 029-02 (proposed effective date 12/01/03) imposes elimination at the discretion of the ground jury for anyone who fails to report to the steward for inspection of saddlery (proposed by Canterlope).

    Proposal 070-02 (proposed effective date 12/01/03) discusses dressage saddlery requirements. This proposal suggests the addition of a bitless bridle be added to approved dressage tack, as well as elimination of the noseband requirement. Proposed by Sarah Gretchell.

    Proposal 001-02 (proposed effective date 12/01/03) allows for the use of a dressage whip at any time while on the flat, including during the dressage test. Proposed by Joan Fleser.

    Proposal 240-02 (proposed effective date 12/01/03) requires numbers to be worn at any time the horse is out of his stall or vehicle while on the grounds after 3:00pm of the day prior to the start of the competition. This falls into line with current FEI rules. It also states that repeat offenders "shall incur a fine of $50" at the discretion of the Ground Jury.

    Proposal 187-02 (proposed effective date 12/01/02) requires ASTM/SEI approved (or surpassed) helmets for all jumping phases... with harness secured of course.

    Proposal 244-02 (proposed effective date 12/01/03) changes the speeds as well as distances and number of obstacles (offering more of a range) for XC. Specifically it changes OT and adds the speed for Speed Faults. Ie: Novice goes to OT Speed of 400 and Speed Faults at 470. Training goes to OT Speed of 470 and Speed Fault Speed of 520. Evidently this is intended to allow people to school a lower course at the higher speed. But it also effectively makes all N and T courses harder since it has upped the OT Speed (currently 350 and 400 respectively). I thought Speed was a *problem*... this proposal seems to not see that fact... or am I missing something??

    Proposal 195-02 (proposed effective date 12/01/02) changes the penalties given in SJ. Dropping a rail would go from 5 to 4. First disobedience would go from 10 to 4 (can I say YUCK! a stop should be MORE than a careless toe!) and GULP! a 2nd disobedience would be ELIMINATION! Yep, no more 3 stops... you only get 1 "gimme" on the whole test... 2nd time and you're out! In addition, a fall of rider goes from 30 to a measly 8 points. [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_confused.gif[/img] Under Intent of Proposal it states that this brings it to "conform to 2002 FEI changes"... has anyone seen these??

    Proposal 192-02 (proposed effective date 12/01/02) goes back to the distinction between a stop at an obstacle with height and one without... allowing a standing jump at one without height. YEA!

    Last one... for now...

    Proposal 241-02 (proposed effective date 12/01/03) deals with dress rules for horse trials. A WHOLE bunch is proposed to change here!! Specifically the following 2 points:

    1. "A body protecting vest must be worn in teh cross-country and jumping tests... should pass or surpass the current ASTM standard F1937, certified by the Safety Equipment Institute." First, it says nothing about warmup. Second, EW! Wearing a vest in SJ??? *blech* And Third, what's with the "should" verbage? Either they write an effective rule or leave it alone!

    2. "Lighweight sportwear is appropriate for dressage, cross-country and jumping at Tests and Horse Trials. Long or short-sleeved shirts, with collars but without neckwear, breeches and boots, or jodhpurs and jodhpur boots, are required. STable, team or club colors are permitted. Chaps and leggings are not allowed, but half chaps and jodhpur boots may be permitted under special circumstances. In the event of inclement weather, appropriate outerwear including rain gear is permitted. Hunting dress or uniforms may be worn but they are not required at any Test or Horse Trial. Three-Day Events, which are conducted under FEI rules, still require hunting dress or uniforms in the dressage and jumping tests." [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif[/img] [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif[/img] [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif[/img] and may I also say EWW!!!! I can just see it now... ponies in pink, black horses in dressage being ridden with black breeches and boots, neon helmet covers back in SJ. BLECH!!! No offense to endurance, but I don't care to see that look in a dressage arena!! OMG!! [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif[/img] [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif[/img]

    Edited to change title per request

    ************
    If Dressage is a Symphony... Eventing is Rock & Roll!!!

    "All's well that ends with cute E.R. doctors, I always say." -- Buffy

    [This message was edited by tle on Oct. 09, 2002 at 08:59 AM.]
    ************
    "Of course it's hard. It's supposed to be hard. It's the Hard that makes it great."

    "Get up... Get out... Get Drunk. Repeat as needed." -- Spike

    Comment


    • #3
      Well, I disagree with the bitless bridle in dressage . How can you meet the requirement of acepting the bit it there isn't one .

      I would like to see dressage whips , perhaps with the same rules as in dressage . use a specified length max and no whips in championships. Are spurs allowed?

      I like the number rule , that I believe makes it easier for the secretary to identify people,

      I don't understand the saddle inspection. Is this something that needs done now and if so where do I have it done.

      More speed on XC I think is bad , I would like to see more options though. I know this gets expensive for the show though. Speed just seems to bring up all sorts of problims.

      vest in stadium yuk, The vest rule I thought was to provide safty on XC because of the speed and the perment obsticals.

      Just my thoughts.

      millions of people walking around like happy meals with legs. -Spike
      millions of people walking around like happy meals with legs. -Spike

      Comment


      • #4
        I think that wording for apparel is way too ambiguous. Not to mention opens the door for all sorts of fashion disasters!

        Who is behind this rule proposal? Who is in place to ensure it doesn't happen?

        And why must we wear the BP's in show-jumping? Does this mean we'll just go through all 3 phases in the same outfit? If so, will more nationwide horse trials switch to the one-day format with this in mind?

        Robby

        You may be only one person in the world, but you may also be the world to one person.
        When blood is the beverage of choice, the sharpest fangs feed first.

        Comment


        • #5
          I suppose I don't care about the whip rule.

          I think that making every horse wear it's number will raise costs - several events in area I only offer pinneys- I don't want to wear my pinney all the time (and what if someone else offers to take the horse for a walk) and if this rule is in effect events will have to purchase more bridle numbers. Who sponsored this one, the bridle number company??

          Vests in stadium? Yuck.

          Equal yuck to removal of dress code. Slop city here we come. Eventers already have the rep of being wild and woolly, we don't need to add to that by not having to ever look nice.

          Don't like the change to SJ penalties either - already, SJ has small impact on scores. 2 stops is kind of unsporting, don't you think? But to reduce all other penalties and beef that one up - doesn't make sense to me. Most likely the reasoning behind lessening the penalties for a stop is that you'll eat up lots of time, but since I thought they were going to slow down time for N again, it won't matter as much.

          Comment


          • #6
            I'm in favor of this one. Eventing is a sport and should be undertaken in clothing appropriate for an athletic endeavour. I don't see football and baseball players wearing old-fashioned wool uniforms or vintage leather footwear these days, and the sport is none the worse. Wool jackets and tailored shirts might look nice, but they're just not very practical, especially in the Southern California endless summer.

            Riding gear is expensive, often prohibitively so if you have growing children. My teenager is still growing and has ADD, which means that the most ordinary things are lost or destroyed at an alarming rate (and we work VERY hard to keep her things organized). If I could send her out in a $20 navy blue polo shirt, I'd be much happier; at least I wouldn't be buying stock ties and pins in bulk anymore.

            As for vests in stadium, I always wear mine. Jumping is jumping. I had a terrible showjumping accident a few years ago -- it was a small class, I figured I was fine without it, but I was riding a green horse -- and won't jump without my vest anymore. From a personal point of view, I don't care if anyone else wears a vest when jumping, but from an organizer's/insurance POV, it seems to make sense to ensure maximum safety. A bad fall takes time out from the schedule, fewer serious falls (a vest can prevent you from cracking your ribs or bad bruising) means things are more likely to run on time.

            tle, I did read your allegedly-caffeine-fueled rant on increased entry fees and I do agree that this is a problem. Just be glad you don't live in CA, it's so much more expensive here and now almost every event is held over 3 days -- which means eventing has essentially become a 4-phase discipline, with phase 1 being 'finagle-the-time-off-from-work/school'. And if you keep your horses at home like I do, you have to make arrangements for feeding/cleaning/care while you're away.

            Entry fees are only a small fraction of the overall eventing costs and for those of us with a growing eventer in the household, a rule change like 241-02 can make eventing a little more affordable.

            Comment


            • #7
              156 "good points" (out of 200)would be 22 penalty points under either scheme (your first calculation omits the step of subtracting "good points from total points to get bad points"). The only difference is how errors are scored.

              The proposed change matches the "way it is done in straight dressage" which probably means it will be turned down.
              Janet

              chief feeder and mucker for Music, Spy, Belle and Tiara. Someone else is now feeding and mucking for Chief and Brain (both foxhunting now).

              Comment


              • #8
                Ew Ew EWWWW

                Vest in stadium- Hate it

                195-02- penalty changes- makes no sense to me, do not like

                faster times for novice? Why?? If people want to school fast, no one's stopping them.

                dress code changes?? HATE that idea....if it's hot excuse jackets....I'm talking dressage a polo shirt would be OK for stadium, but not dressage!!

                Lettin' the cat outta the bag is a whole lot easier than puttin' it back- A Cowboy's Guide to Life
                The truth is rarely pure, and never simple. Oscar Wilde

                Comment


                • #9
                  <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> I don't understand the saddle inspection. Is this something that needs done now and if so where do I have it done. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
                  Otherwise known as the "bit check" in dressage. And the "medical card and whip length check" in cross country and stadium.
                  Janet

                  chief feeder and mucker for Music, Spy, Belle and Tiara. Someone else is now feeding and mucking for Chief and Brain (both foxhunting now).

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    They have been trying to get this one through for at least 10 years. (What year was the annual meeting in Pittsburg?)
                    Janet

                    chief feeder and mucker for Music, Spy, Belle and Tiara. Someone else is now feeding and mucking for Chief and Brain (both foxhunting now).

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> faster times for novice? Why?? If people want to school fast, no one's stopping them.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Yes they are. If you go faster than 400 mpm you get speed penalties.
                      Janet

                      chief feeder and mucker for Music, Spy, Belle and Tiara. Someone else is now feeding and mucking for Chief and Brain (both foxhunting now).

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Yes, I understand that, but I say that's the breaks. If they want to school, then they are schooling, and shouldn't care if they place. [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif[/img] I guess they need to decide who "novice" is for. Novice riders or novice horses who are being schooled by experienced riders who are using as a schooling experience for higher levels.

                        Lettin' the cat outta the bag is a whole lot easier than puttin' it back- A Cowboy's Guide to Life

                        [This message was edited by bgoosewood on Oct. 03, 2002 at 04:50 PM.]
                        The truth is rarely pure, and never simple. Oscar Wilde

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          I thought the number on the horse was already a rule??? We have had to do it at all horse trials this year. Maybe just an Area V rule?

                          I sure hope the clothing rule doesn't change. It really gives our sport class!

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            The elimination after 2 stops, and the equalizing of rails and stops has already happened at FEI competitions (CCI and CIC) this year
                            Janet

                            chief feeder and mucker for Music, Spy, Belle and Tiara. Someone else is now feeding and mucking for Chief and Brain (both foxhunting now).

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Chiming in:

                              Dressage scoring: I kind of like the 2 point penalty taken after calculations (and yes, I made 2 point error just this summer by halting at X instead of G in a training level test), but don't mind if this changes to be more like straight dressage where an error isn't all that costly. I like easily converted scores, that you can just subtract the penalties from 100 to convert the score to a positive percentage comparison/convenience sake.

                              Saddlery inspection? Is this the current bit check or something more? Is this something for every competitor or just if something is question by the GJ they need to submit to an inspection? Need more info.

                              Bitless bridle? No way. Not for dressage. And lets leave the noseband in place.

                              Whips in dressage? I'd rather not. Horse needs to be going off leg for jumping, and that should be demonstrated in the dressage arena. I'd like to see whips eliminated from straight dressage competition as well (already prohibited for championships and Grand Prix).

                              Number rule is just dandy with me. Helps make horses identifiable, which is handy for lots of reasons (tracking down a competitor with info, figuring out which bay horse was being ridden illegally in draw reins, etc.).

                              Helmet rule: it's about time!

                              Speed: You should definitely be able to school the speed of the level above you without incurring speed penalties. This does not have to change the Optimum Time speed, however.

                              Stadium penalties: Huh? We want bold, forward horses and a stop should DEFINITELY be penalized more than a rail down. This one has me scratching my head.

                              Obstacles with/without height: Probably a good thing to revise this and go back to allowing some standing jumps for obstacles without height. However, the horse who boldly/fluidly goes around now is rewarded over one less bold that might pause or stick before jumping, so I kind of like the rule as is.

                              Vests in Stadium: I have been a helmet nazi since the 70s, and totally believe in the ASTM, but I'm not too fond of vests being required for anything other than x-c, where the fences are solid. I'm not convinced of much need. They should be, and are, optional in stadium.

                              Sportswear: YES. We are a sport, there are new materials and styles, and it does not make sense that we dress like a bunch of 19th century Brits hunting in cool and damp English winter when we are actually riding in the hot and humid 90 degrees, 95 percent humidity, American summer.

                              Don't take life so seriously...it's not permanent.
                              Hindsight bad, foresight good.

                              Comment


                              • #16
                                <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> I guess they need to decide who "novice" is for. Novice riders or novice horses who are being schooled by experienced riders. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Nominally, Open Novice is for experienced riders, and Novice is for inexperieced riders- but there are plenty of experienced riders in striagh Novice, just haven't competed at anything higher recently. And the rules are the same for both divisions.

                                Personally, I would like a wider range of speeds for Novice. If things are going well, I don't get a "cross country rhythm" until we are going about 400mpm, and then I have to circle before the last jump to be sure I don't get speed penalties.

                                But with some horses 350 mpm is plenty fast enough the first time out. You could just as easily say THEY are schooling, and should just "take" the penalties.

                                I think it would make more sense to make it 350 to 450.

                                ANd you don't want a BIG speed difference between Training and Prelim, the way it is now.
                                Janet

                                chief feeder and mucker for Music, Spy, Belle and Tiara. Someone else is now feeding and mucking for Chief and Brain (both foxhunting now).

                                Comment


                                • #17
                                  <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Proposal 190-02 (proposed effective date 12/1/02) seems to take any errors in the dressage test and subtract them BEFORE dividing AND gives a new way to score. First, if adding in errors (or subtracting in this case) before dividing by the total possible points instead of after... wouldn't that make LESS of an impact on the score? Also the way the scoring seems to be proposed is pretty simple actually.... total good marks minus error divided by total possible multiplied by 100 gives you the percentage for that judge. To get penalties, that percentage (or an average over the number of judges) is simply subtracted from 100. EGADS! So instead of 156 good marks on a 200 point test being a 39 (156/200 * 100 * .5) it's a 22!!!! (156/200 * 100 subtracted from 100). Good god I might be able to break 40 afterall! Is this a good thing?
                                  <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

                                  What the..? It's more simple, yes.. but I think my brain is so far stuck into the status quo that I would really be confused. Nope, I don't like that rule.

                                  No to the one on the bitless bridle/noseband.

                                  I'm torn on the whip issue. I personally don't want them to be legal, but it doesnt matter a lot to me either way.

                                  Yes to the helmet one.

                                  Big fat NO to the SJ penalties. What the heck is all that nonsense about?

                                  Yes to the rule regarding stopping at a jump with height vs. one without height. To me, there's a difference, and should be viewed differently.

                                  No No No to changing the rules of dress. Leave them as they are!

                                  -Amanda

                                  You can't always get what you want, but if you try sometime, you just might find.. you get what you need.
                                  http://the900facebookpony.com/

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                                  • #18
                                    I'd go along with it if it was "white or off-white shirt with collar and sleeves". But I don't want to see brightly colored shirts in dressage.

                                    Did Rogert Haller REALLY propose the attire change?
                                    Janet

                                    chief feeder and mucker for Music, Spy, Belle and Tiara. Someone else is now feeding and mucking for Chief and Brain (both foxhunting now).

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                                    • #19
                                      I am a strong advocate of approved helmets, but I am yet to be convinced of the real value of body protectors.

                                      But if you are going to require them, you need a concrete definition of what IS a body protector. Under the current rules, I could claim that an extra heavy sweater was a body protector.
                                      Janet

                                      chief feeder and mucker for Music, Spy, Belle and Tiara. Someone else is now feeding and mucking for Chief and Brain (both foxhunting now).

                                      Comment


                                      • #20
                                        The XC speed issue isn't actually important to me, but some of the others really irk me. Specifically the one re: SJ faults. What is the reasoning behind that??

                                        I don't think whips should be in dressage, and I think they should be removed for regular dressage too. Same with the bitless bridles....kind of misses the whole point.

                                        I wonder if the dress code will be changed? People have been whining about that one for a long time now. [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif[/img] If it's changed, I hope they at least state that formal dress is optional. I like the way it looks.....and it's all about the pictures!! [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif[/img] [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif[/img] [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif[/img]
                                        The truth is rarely pure, and never simple. Oscar Wilde

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