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Two dead in one day. How many is acceptable?

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  • #41
    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> But, the best you can do is to stack the deck in terms of safety, so that one is never left saying "Well, if only we'd done x, y, or z" and then let the sport continue, knowing that you've done what you can. Eventing is the most fun I've ever had with my horse, and 99% of eventers take better care of their horses than any other discipline I've seen. I cried last night when I read about the horses that were put down at Southern Pines, though I didn't know them nor did I know the riders, but I'm still proud to be a competitor in this sport -- I just redoubled my commitment to doing what I can to make it better and safer, starting with my own riding.


    Amen to that, sister!


    True Southerners grow up knowing the difference between "pert near" and "a right far piece."


    • #42
      On a lighter note!I just got back to freezing cold Virginia, literally hour ago from Southern Pines. I rode one of only two clean prelim rounds XC in my divsion today, at Southern Pines!in the rain.grrr! it rode auwsome i have no compiants! and there was founatly no seriously injured or dead horses today. There was only a couple of MR and EL but both horse and rider were all fine. And not to many falls, only two olympians fell off! [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif[/img]

      All i have to say was that my best wishes are with Shannon and Dianne, they are great sports both of them, and both rode their other horses to great rounds today, and are example to all! after two horrible freak accidents.

      Despite these two horrible accidents it was a great event, by far the best event i've ever been too, it was the most origanizered event ever, absurdly true. I think the organizers,vet-personals, officals, volenteers, and espc the TD- Brian Ross, did an exceptional job handling some unfounate situtations.


      Oh and ps I saw Montanna Native the horse that alos hurt itself this morning he seemed to be of the IV and was looking much better while the vet checked him out!

      "People who say riding isn't a sport are afraid, in the game we play, the ball has a mind of its own."

      [This message was edited by TopBritYR on Mar. 18, 2002 at 01:05 AM.]
      Invest in the Journey, not the Destination
      \"Some People are born great, some people are great, and some people achive greatness.\"


      • #43

        My 2 cents for the vast well of comments. First off, I was at the event saturday and somehow while there a.) didn't hear about the YOI horse and b.) Missed seeing Diann's fall by maybe 5 mins.

        First off, Dianne's horse was sooo "on" in the warmup. He was shiny and fit looking and the two of them did not meet a fence wrong. (Also note that SPHT has x-c warm up fences that you can gallop to and get more in x-c mode than standard and rail jumps.) When asked to move up he did, when asked to wait, he did. They appeared to be very much in sync. I believe from a brief but clear conversation with the vets that her fall and the other horses' were both very much in the fluke category. Both horses have reams of experience, both had had a previous run, and for you qualification buffs, both were already qualified or nearly so. (According to who I talked to. I have not done full research but even a little research shows me a number of runs for both horses at their respective levels including Foxhall for Diann and NAYRC at the CCI* level for the other.)

        Now, both fences involved a ditch. And I know that while ditches are a big element in eventing that I have heard murmurs about maybe changing the way they are actually built. Ie. making them shallower so a horse cannot be enveloped inside if it falls. But so far its just been talk.

        Diann came back today and rode two great rides and was thanking everyone for their help yesterday. She is a very strong person and the penultimate in professional competitors. I know she will be ever more competitive at her next event. As for the YOI rider (whose name I am not divulging due to her age and because no one else has confirmed it before me), I have seen her ride before and also expect that she will return soon, as she is a good, and strong person.

        We all die. We all strive not to do it in a manner ill fitting for the lives we live and for the people around us. But lives are lost by the minute. I am not glorifying it, nor criticizing. I think its safe to say we all wish our horses a peaceful death in a field around age 30 or so. And I know I wish a quiet slumber that just takes me, around age 90. With as many people as view these boards I hate to say, but this will not be the case for everyone.

        At this point it's right and good to look at ALL our equine sports, see if there is a flaw or flaws. Look to the horses and riders, are they well trained enough? And once we have searched as much as we can, and tried even from our homes wherever, to better the equine world at large, move on again. Give your horse(s) a carrot. Thank your families for letting you follow your crazy horse world dreams. And canter forward in life. That is the only way we can truly keep living and honor these wonderful horses and riders.

        "The brave may not live forever, but the cautious never truly live at all"

        "Courage is not the absence of fear but rather the judgment that something is more important than fear. The brave may not live forever but the cautious do not live at all." ~2001 The Princess Diaries


        • #44
          There are on-going tests for safety improvements to cross country courses. I believe the frangible pin idea may well be used at Badminton this year. The powers-that-be seem to think it may actually be workable. They instigated the research because something needed to be done but I think they were pleasantly surprised to find there might be tangible benefits.

          It is terrible that two horses lost their lives, but as others have said, whenever we do things with horses there are risks involved. For such large creatures, they are very delicate,...even feeding correctly is a challenge. Even when we don't do anything with our horses, accidents happen. I personally knew three horses that had to be put down because of fractures sustained when at pasture and a number of other close calls.

          Perhaps what we should consider as well, is quality of life. Most horses, if brought on carefully and thoughtfully, adore going cross country. Yes, they don't realise the dangers involved but they love their job. If we've introduced them to this exhileration, instead of leaving them "safely" in the field or pounding round an indoor school for ever, doesn't this mitigate somewhat the potential risks to them?

          It must be truly awful to lose a horse competing, but if you've done your best and you know you and your horse are up to the task, then that is all you can do, whatever the type of competition. We strive to do the best for our horses. We spend all our time training them, learning how they think, bonding with them,...only a fool would take on more than they know they are capable of. We are all fallible and can misjudge our capabilities, but if we constantly question what we are doing and take on board the views of more experienced people in our discipline, I don't think we can ask for more.

          Horses have such brief lives. I would be devastated to lose my horse on a cross country course, but when we are on song we have so much fun together, and I wouldn't want to take that from us.


          • #45
            I'm replying as I read (the joy of being able to open 2 browser windows), so I apologize if my response seems a bit disjointed... just didnt' want to forget anything.

            1) BRAVO BarbB & Canterlope!

            2) <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>It must take "X" number of points earned by placings at cetain size preliminary events.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

            The problem with putting qualifications on placings is that a 42 may get you a 5th place one weekend and a 12th the next. Not exactly standardization.

            <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Are there really 90 sound, fit and ready to compete on this particular weekend Intermediate horses in this part of the country, this early in the season?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

            Yes, simply because SP is a "gathering" place so to speak for this time of year. I can guarantee that you saw 90 horses from all over this HALF of the US and Canada. Remember that there is a HUGE winter circuit in Florida... so many of these horses have been running events since January in prep for these March events. No, the cancellation last week didn't do anyone any favors, but the wise eventer would have been out schooling or putting in an extra gallop in place of XC. PLUS, missing 1 event will not make an Intermediate fit horse suddenly into the king of couch potatoes. (horses lose fitness a LOT slower than humans)

            <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>I still say that if 20% of the riders at not a beginner level cannot control their horse or have sufficient knowledge of how to, or talent to, negotiate a 2 stride in 2 strides in a stadium jumping arena, they have no business galloping around a x-country course over solid, unforgiving jumps.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

            And you're probably right. But remember that those who were quoted to not be able to put in the distances were the Training riders doing SJ before XC... not the Intermediate & Advanced ones. At Training level, very few MAJOR changes to striding are asked for simply because at this stage of their training... well... it's not asked for. I'd be curious to know what the actual distance was in that combination (on a side, but related note, I've often seen TDs and Judges "miss" shortening a combination when they lower the heights... making the distance "off" in the process).

            <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Possibility within each area, have several experienced people in charge that oversee everyone and can step in and not allow someone to move up if their riding seems unsafe <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

            But who would this be and, heaven forbid, someone have an accident on course, who would shoulder the financial burden that would inevidibly come around when "approved" so & so sues because another person said they were "approved"? I know... financial reasons are the last thing anyone wants to think of when talking safety (ie: lawsuits, higher priced "breakable" jumps), but it's a fact of life that simply must be dealt with or we all lose.

            <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Unfortunately when you start moving up and hitting Prelim and above, there is little wiggle room for the rider who really is not a confident rider who really knows how to sit back and get the horse under him to put in 2 short strides say, and get out safely<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

            Which is my MAJOR complaint with many of the "dumbing down" rules they have put in place for Novice and Training. The US system of progression (and many people have heard my diatribe on this before... my apologies) in Eventing has been called one of the best. HOWEVER, there is still a sizable jump in effort between Training and Prelim. And now that things are getting "softer" for Training (IMHO in an effort to ensure that "everyone" can event... to dull the elitist attitudes), it makes that jump to Prelim even harder! As of this year, there are new qualifications in place to ride Prelim... perhaps they will help, but IMHO if they would stop dropping the efforts needed at the lower level to the lowest common denominator, it would improve the riding at Prelim.

            <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>After the event, plenty of time should be taken to study placement, light, striding, and other factors that experts take into consideration when evaluating safety. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

            Believe me, that definitely happens!

            <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>The sport, in fact, may serve itself well to search for creative means so as to provide for this protection. Surely the sport's governing body could do a better job of this itself than an outside government agency could if brought to task.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

            And that is why things are ALWAYS being investigated, researched and tried out! Collaspable fences are being designed and tried. Rules and qualifications are being enforced. I'm not trying to jump down your throat, but please realize what you said (that I quoted) is exactly what is happening within the sport already.

            <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>The dangerous riders that many see are not getting good instruction, or are being pushed by not-very-good instructors. I'm not sure how to solve this problem, or whether it can be institutionally solved. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

            This is what the new Instructor's seminars and certification program is for. It's in its infancy, but help educate instructors in order to improve the riding of the competitors is one of its top goals. BUT... you will never (IMHO) see an instance where the USEA or USAEq *requires* a certified trainer for a competitor -- too much liability to assume when you're competing in an inherently risky sport.

            Ok, I guess that's it (for now). My heart goes out to those who lost their best friends this weekend.

            If Dressage is a Symphony... Eventing is Rock & Roll!

            Survivor thoughts -- Episode 3 recap... OMG!! NOT HUNTER!!! [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif[/img] [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_mad.gif[/img] And the tribal suicide continues... [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif[/img] Remember we're on Wednesday this week!
            "Of course it's hard. It's supposed to be hard. It's the Hard that makes it great."

            "Get up... Get out... Get Drunk. Repeat as needed." -- Spike


            • #46
              I get the impression, (mainly from Zeus, but from several others as well) that they may not be aware of some of the lengths eventers HAVE gone to to try to make the sport safer. From an educational standpoint:

              1) Eventers have been discussing collapsable fences for some time now. They have run a few events (in the Netherlands?) with the collapsable fences, and have run into problems. I.e., at least as we're CURRENTLY designing them, we don't think they're "safer" (because of the problems with bits of the fence coming apart, etc.). We are still working on it! So PLEASE don't think that we're just being a bunch of bull-headed people who are saying "Nope, it's always been done with dangerous fences, so we're just gonna keep doing it that way!" Nothing could be further from the truth.

              2) Someone suggested that if they have a death at a fence, it should immediately be removed from the course. I disagree, in part. I think if it is a NEW jump, then yes. Maybe it should be promptly pulled, so we can re-evaluate. But if it is a jump that has been there for years, and has been jumped safely 400 times, I don't think we should pull it. We can't prevent accidents. But we need to make sure there isn't a design flaw that makes it tough for a horse to "see" the fence, or the take off, or whatever.

              3) There HAVE been a LOT of improvements made in X-C fence construction. Things like rounding the tops of fences (to permit horses to "slide" over better) and being careful about oxers to make sure the horse can see the back rail on the approach. Making fences more easily "deconstructed" in the event a horse becomes hung up in one. I'm not saying its "enough" ... no one is. Even the die-hard old times don't argue against these minor but important changes.

              4) Qualifying. I'm glad we've decided to introduce the 4 clear rounds at Training level before moving to Prelim. The problem is, A rider and horse might do FINE at training. And really not be ready for prelim. Or, EVEN IF they squeak by around their four rounds at training... what then? Other than a 4-clear round requirement... how do we weed out the riders who got their four clears by the skin on their teeth? I don't see a good way to do it... But I'd love suggestions. As far as the 1 1/2 strides in the two stride... well, first of all, I disagree that Janet's sister "squeaked by" or "survived" (I don't know Janet's sister by the way). I think anyone who is finishing in the top three in the LARGE divisions at Southern Pines is doing well. Her dressage must've been good. Her X-C must've been good... should we have pulled her from the event because she blew a fence in stadium? I don't think so. Were there other riders who blew that fence who SHOULD HAVE been pulled? Probably.

              Yes, there is more danger in eventing. As long as we have a cross country phase it will be more dangerous. But (and this is not by way of excuse), I have seen plenty of SCARY rounds in hunter jumper shows as well. ESPECIALLY the low level jumpers. And some go clear! If you can figure out a way to keep those folks from risking their horses that way, maybe its something we can apply to eventers.

              It was a sad weekend. But, to me, it sounds like a freak accident. As far as the young rider goes... here's a girl (from what has been posted), who had LOTS of prelim experience, and had done several CCI*s. That doesn't necessarily mean she was "ready" to move up, but it certainly supports her case. A move up is ALWAYS hard. If you could do it perfectly the first time around it wouldn't be much of a sport. Even if this wasn't her first Intermediate, she sounds like she was still in the stage of "gaining experience" at this level. Maybe she or her horse made a costly mistake. I'm sure no one regrets it more than her... but, I think as long as people are moving up, there will be accidents. Even a rider who is well prepared might have a scary jump or two. Sometimes its just dumb luck as to whether that scary jump results in a lesson learned, or an injured horse.


              • #47
                I too was there this weekend, and while I didn't see the exact moments of each fall, I did see the immediate aftermath of both of them. Also, I was with someone who saw the first accident, and spoke with someone who the second. My husband also spoke briefly with DIanne on Sunday, and we both spoke with the TD Brian ROss.

                First, let me just say that I saw and spoke with Montana Native and his rider and they are both completely fine. She is bruised, he has a small hematoma on one knee, but expect to be back in work later in the week. She feels very lucky.

                Second, after the YR horse fell, they did take the fence out.

                Third, there is no question that the fatalities were freak accidents, however there may be some question as to how freak the fall were--let me explain. In the first instance, there were several factors which may have contributed to the stop/fall (based on conversations I was in among a variety of top riders who saw the accident bnut which out of defernce to the young person involved I won't delineate here), however the horse recieved its fatal injury AFTER the rider had come off and after it had come to a stop. There is no question the fact he broke his leg was a freak thing--but there should be some analysis of what caused him to stop and fall in the first place. As far as Dianne's fall, it was clearly a freak thing--she is devestated of course, but said that is felt like he just wasn't looking at the fence and missed his footing. She was very greatful for the help, love and support of the eventing community at such a terrible time--and had nothing but kind words for the vets and crew who worked so hard to help her horse.

                I too would say the vet crew was phenomanal, they were there with the horse(s) within seconds, and dealt with a terrible situation with speed, professioanlism, and compassion.

                Now allow me to speak in GENERAL terms--not speaking specifically about any of the people involved in the tragedy this weekend.

                There are many, many people who are riding at a level they shouldn't. There are many, many people who are wonderful riders who did everything right. There are some jumps that require more expereince that immediately obvious. There are some jumps whose conditions change as the day, light, and atmosphere changes. I hope and think that there will be a lot of conversation and study of these instances to see what if anything can be learned from this and prevent it from happening again. And, after speaking with the TD, several top riders, and others, I feel comfortable saying this will happen.

                On a personal note, I will say I think there is some merit in examining making ditches more shallow so horses have a better opportunity to stop themselves from sliding into a fence, and carefull examing how light changes on a given fence during the day. I also think the we should examine how people get to a certain level and give officials more leeway to eliminate people who "aren't getting it done". I think it wouldn't hurt to examine how countries who do have testing procedures for competition, like France, do it and how it works for them.

                My heart breaks for Dianne and the young rider (I too won't name her publicly due to her age). I cried plenty on Saturday, and its still difficult to think about. But, now is not the time for hysteria. Now is the time for reasoned, serious and thorough scholarship and discussion about what happened.


                • Original Poster

                  To reply to the 2 posters who were also at SP, and to refocus the thread, let me reiterate that the two deaths occurred at jumps that had no other bad problems that day. Diane's fall (the one I personally saw) was the only horse to not soar over the fence and gallop straight away. In fact, about 30 minutes earlier, the fence judges, who had judged that fence last year also, were joking that next year they were going to ask for a more interesting fence -- this one was boring, because nothing ever happened at it.

                  So, Diane's tragedy certainly comes under the heading of a fluke accident, not lack of training or ability. Especially since she had already ridden the course twice and jumped that fence twice without a problem.

                  But, that said: to me, a fluke accident should still not take the life of a horse. Her horse hit the jump so hard he move it back a whole foot before he fell backwards into the ditch. And we are talking big, solid logs, here.

                  Perhaps changing the time allowed might have helped. Then the horse would not have been galloping so flat out that, when he apparently did not notice the ditch until it was to late to adjust at that speed, might not have caused a fatal accident.

                  Obviously I do not know the answer. But when a horse galloping at that speed runs smack into a wall, something has to give.
                  "He lives in a cocoon of solipsism"

                  Charles Krauthammer speaking about Trump


                  • #49
                    Please tell, I've been in bed with flu and have not gotten any news, waht happened?
                    Earthdogs, you gotta dig 'em!


                    • #50
                      I agree with some of you that the horses do enjoy their jobs very much. But I think that some of the jumps they have at the higher levels are pretty outrageous. Nothing against all you who may be 3 dayers, and it is great if you have been able to get to that level, but everyone has a different apinion. And I also agree with many of you that things like broken legs and even death can happen anywhere, but I do think that some things that they have on higher level courses could be safer.

                      Just one persons apinion.


                      • #51
                        Just to clarify what TopBritYR said, there were more than two clear jumping rounds in the prelim. Lots of horses jumped clean, but the time was very difficult to make. Most had time penalties, but jumped all the jumps saftly.

                        "The Assyrian program of exterminating various ethnic groups generally failed to promote cultural diversity."-- Non Campus Mentis
                        Hanlon's Razor

                        Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity.


                        • #52
                          just to add my two cents to the eventing isn't really so awful argument:
                          people get up in arms over deaths in eventing like this mainly because they are so spectacular and public. Deaths in other horse-sports tend to be less public and dramatic: the horses are advanced too rapidly up the ranks without paying proper attention to conditioning and training, and their bodies and minds just give out. How many racehorses, cutting horses, reiners, show-jumpers, hunters, and dressage horses end up quietly dead from too much work too fast?

                          The competitive show-jumpers and hunters I've know don't seem to understand the concept of slowly conditioning and training a horse at all. Their horses seem to require an awful lot of drugs to keep going, and they seem to need new horses practically every year because they destroyed the previous ones.


                          • #53
                            TopBritYR or anyone else who can answer this question, How did Montana Native get hurt? He was my last riding instructors horse and I am really curious about what happend.


                            • #54
                              This is a hard reply to write, because serious injuries are both incredibly sad and distrubing. First, then, my condolences to Shannon and Dianne, and best wishes to Rainey and Montana for quick recoveries.

                              Second is a disclaimer. I didn't go to Southern Pines, but over the weekend I did talk to several riders who were there. My opinions are more general, about safety and risk, than about the specifics of what happened this weekend.

                              I do not believe that eventing, eventers, course designers, trainers, or judges and officials, as a group, either willfully or recklessly disregard the safety of either horse or rider. I do believe that the eventing community embraces achievement and athleticism, and accept the risk inherent to both. To strive for excellence is to push limits, but to achieve it is to respect and then overcome those limits. Competing in horse trials is about testing the bond and the capabilities of horse and rider. It is thrilling and fulfilling. It is not the only sport where a level of acceptable risk is embraced: consider football, which certainly has more serious and career ending injuries per professional participant than eventing, downhill skiing, which has also suffered several high-profile fatalities, or car racing.

                              The question, then, is the definition of "acceptable" risk. That varies for every athlete and every person. Some people opt to bungee jump, parasail, or scuba dive on vacation. Others prefer museums. Some people travel to conflict regions to provide humanitarian relief. Others help out by writing letters to politicians or checks to aid agencies from home. Some people find thrill in galloping 540 meters a minute up to a 3'9 table. Others do not. Therefore, some people choose to event and to event at the upper levels, and others do not. There are options. Every rider competing at the higher levels has assessed his or her willingness to participate at that level. When the risks become unacceptable, there are other levels or other horse sports.

                              To a certain degree, the same is true for upper level horses. While horses certainly don't understand risks the way people do, and while they cannot voice preferences, horses who do not enjoy eventing very rarely wind up at the upper levels. It just isn't possible to force a horse into the gallop and jump needed for a prelim, intermediate, or advanced course unless the horse is willing. There are very few true stoppers on the event circuit, because once the problem is recognized as such and become habitual, the horse is helped to a new career. I have had the privilege to work with some very top level event horses, as well as my own game mounts, and while breed, way of going, size and age vary, the common theme in event horses is enthusiasm for cross country day.

                              Given the premise that participants in eventing find the risks to be acceptable, then, we are left with questioning the validity of participants reasoning and the precautions they take. While I generally believe that people should be allowed their own decisions, I also believe in safety standards for workplaces, the environment, and some industries such as transportation. Combined that general acceptance of standards with the fact that horses, as well as human participants, are involved, I am willing to entertain the notion of standards and outside critique of those standards with regards to eventing as well. And I believe that the standards and safety practices are sufficient. Consider qualifications: to compete at prelim and up requires multiple clean rounds, within a time window, at the lower level. There are age requirements, because a cross country test is mental as well as physical. Young horses may not compete at certain levels. Riders who are injured in competition cannot start again until cleared by a doctor. Entries: all riders, and recently all horses, are to be members of USCTA/USAE, so records can be confirmed. For junior riders, entries are to be signed by trainers or parents. Equipment: approved helmets and safety vests are the norm, even for adults. Horses wear protective boots (and some wear studs). Cross country courses are inspected by not only the course designer, but also the TD. Riders, through each competition's designated rider representative, can voice concerns about the course before the competition begins. I will not discuss collapsible fences except to say that the issue has been researched extensively, and there is some reason to believe that a solid fence is actually safer because splintering materials could cause further injury and horses can literally climb out of trouble if the fence remains firm. Precautions: EMTs on hand, a designated Safety Officer, and fence judges at every obstacle help to ensure that help is on hand as soon as possible.

                              This is not an exhaustive list of precautions, and I do not agree with all of the requirements I have described. I am simply listing them to show that though and care are given to the safety of both horse and rider in eventing. My point is not to compare eventing to other disciplines or to criticize those sports.

                              I love my sport, and I participate knowing full well the potential risks. I do not believe that we can ask, as this thread does, "How many [dead horses] is acceptable?" There is no answer to that question; a death or accident is always tragic. I do believe that the preparation that my fellow eventers and I engage in is responsible and almost always sufficient, and I bear well in mind the tragedies that have occurred. I simply ask for respect for those of us who do choose to participate and to do so as best we can. �Jess


                              • #55
                                <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>I do think that some things that they have on higher level courses could be safer.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

                                Like what? what... AND WHY... would you change? yes, I'm picking on you, simply because your statement gave me that opportunity. :-) But I hear it all the time from non-eventers... "oh that's so dangerous", "something should change to make it less risky", yadda yadda yadda... but the one thing I find more often than not is that they can't give *good* suggestions because they don't understand the sport. They see the horrific accidents and start bemoaning the sport. Typical human nature I suppose (to jump to conclusions without all the facts or typically a good grasp of the problem even) and I know I've been guilty of it...

                                If Dressage is a Symphony... Eventing is Rock & Roll!

                                Survivor thoughts -- Episode 3 recap... OMG!! NOT HUNTER!!! [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif[/img] [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_mad.gif[/img] And the tribal suicide continues... [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif[/img] Remember we're on Wednesday this week!
                                "Of course it's hard. It's supposed to be hard. It's the Hard that makes it great."

                                "Get up... Get out... Get Drunk. Repeat as needed." -- Spike


                                • #56
                                  Yes, TLE. Exactly. The best riders -- the experts -- find the majority of current practices acceptable. In fact, the best eventers in our country were at Southern Pines and completed the courses, including the fences where accidents occured. --Jess


                                  • #57

                                    I don't usually post on this forum, but felt compelled due to your comment :

                                    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Deaths in other horse-sports tend to be less public and dramatic: the horses are advanced too rapidly up the ranks without paying proper attention to conditioning and training, and their bodies and minds just give out. How many racehorses, cutting horses, reiners, show-jumpers, hunters, and dressage horses end up quietly dead from too much work too fast?
                                    The competitive show-jumpers and hunters I've know don't seem to understand the concept of slowly conditioning and training a horse at all. Their horses seem to require an awful lot of drugs to keep going, and they seem to need new horses practically every year because they destroyed the previous ones.


                                    These generalizations are not helpful, fair or true. There are folks that demonstrate the issues you mention in every riding discipline. Every discipline has its own challenges, and therefore, a corresponding culture and set of strong and weak points. Your comments perpetuate a "we" v. "they" mentality.

                                    I have taken lessons from trainers of many ilks from dressage to reining, and have found helpful perspectives and training methods from all of them. I've learned a lot about conditioning my jumpers from an event rider I know. Likewise, I know a lot of eventers training and taking clinics with well-known GP riders.

                                    We all have a lot to learn from each other.


                                    • #58
                                      VERY good post JaGold!! [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif[/img]

                                      Superheroes of the universe, unite!

                                      The truth is rarely pure, and never simple. Oscar Wilde


                                      • #59
                                        <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Your comments perpetuate a "we" v. "they" mentality.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

                                        No, jr... this WHOLE THREAD by and large perpetuates that...


                                        If Dressage is a Symphony... Eventing is Rock & Roll!

                                        Survivor thoughts -- Episode 3 recap... OMG!! NOT HUNTER!!! [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif[/img] [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_mad.gif[/img] And the tribal suicide continues... [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif[/img] Remember we're on Wednesday this week!
                                        "Of course it's hard. It's supposed to be hard. It's the Hard that makes it great."

                                        "Get up... Get out... Get Drunk. Repeat as needed." -- Spike


                                        • #60
                                          Well said, jr.

                                          tle - I was trying to NOT do the "we" / "they" mentality in my posts. That's why I said that WE (meaning all disciplines) had better get our acts together and re-evaluate aspects of our sports from WITHIN, or others from the outside will be doing it for us.
                                          \"Riding a horse is not a gentle hobby, to be picked up and laid down like a game of solitaire. It is a grand passion. It seizes a person whole and, once it has done so, he will have to accept that his life will be radically changed.\" -- Ralph Waldo E