• Welcome to the Chronicle Forums.
    Please complete your profile. The forums and the rest of www.chronofhorse.com has single sign-in, so your log in information for one will automatically work for the other. Disclaimer: The opinions expressed here are the views of the individual and do not necessarily reflect the views and opinions of The Chronicle of the Horse.

Announcement

Collapse

Forum rules and no-advertising policy

As a participant on this forum, it is your responsibility to know and follow our rules. Please read this message in its entirety.

Board Rules

1. You’re responsible for what you say.
As outlined in Section 230 of the Communications Decency Act, The Chronicle of the Horse and its affiliates, as well Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd., the developers of vBulletin, are not legally responsible for statements made in the forums.

This is a public forum viewed by a wide spectrum of people, so please be mindful of what you say and who might be reading it—details of personal disputes are likely better handled privately. While posters are legally responsible for their statements, the moderators may in their discretion remove or edit posts that violate these rules. Users have the ability to modify or delete their own messages after posting, but administrators generally will not delete posts, threads or accounts upon request.

Outright inflammatory, vulgar, harassing, malicious or otherwise inappropriate statements and criminal charges unsubstantiated by a reputable news source or legal documentation will not be tolerated and will be dealt with at the discretion of the moderators.

2. Conversations in horse-related forums should be horse-related.
The forums are a wonderful source of information and support for members of the horse community. While it’s understandably tempting to share information or search for input on other topics upon which members might have a similar level of knowledge, members must maintain the focus on horses.

3. Keep conversations productive, on topic and civil.
Discussion and disagreement are inevitable and encouraged; personal insults, diatribes and sniping comments are unproductive and unacceptable. Whether a subject is light-hearted or serious, keep posts focused on the current topic and of general interest to other participants of that thread. Utilize the private message feature or personal email where appropriate to address side topics or personal issues not related to the topic at large.

4. No advertising in the discussion forums.
Posts in the discussion forums directly or indirectly advertising horses, jobs, items or services for sale or wanted will be removed at the discretion of the moderators. Use of the private messaging feature or email addresses obtained through users’ profiles for unsolicited advertising is not permitted.

Company representatives may participate in discussions and answer questions about their products or services, or suggest their products on recent threads if they fulfill the criteria of a query. False "testimonials" provided by company affiliates posing as general consumers are not appropriate, and self-promotion of sales, ad campaigns, etc. through the discussion forums is not allowed.

Paid advertising is available on our classifieds site and through the purchase of banner ads. The tightly monitored Giveaways forum permits free listings of genuinely free horses and items available or wanted (on a limited basis). Items offered for trade are not allowed.

Advertising Policy Specifics
When in doubt of whether something you want to post constitutes advertising, please contact a moderator privately in advance for further clarification. Refer to the following points for general guidelines:

Horses – Only general discussion about the buying, leasing, selling and pricing of horses is permitted. If the post contains, or links to, the type of specific information typically found in a sales or wanted ad, and it’s related to a horse for sale, regardless of who’s selling it, it doesn’t belong in the discussion forums.

Stallions – Board members may ask for suggestions on breeding stallion recommendations. Stallion owners may reply to such queries by suggesting their own stallions, only if their horse fits the specific criteria of the original poster. Excessive promotion of a stallion by its owner or related parties is not permitted and will be addressed at the discretion of the moderators.

Services – Members may use the forums to ask for general recommendations of trainers, barns, shippers, farriers, etc., and other members may answer those requests by suggesting themselves or their company, if their services fulfill the specific criteria of the original post. Members may not solicit other members for business if it is not in response to a direct, genuine query.

Products – While members may ask for general opinions and suggestions on equipment, trailers, trucks, etc., they may not list the specific attributes for which they are in the market, as such posts serve as wanted ads.

Event Announcements – Members may post one notification of an upcoming event that may be of interest to fellow members, if the original poster does not benefit financially from the event. Such threads may not be “bumped” excessively. Premium members may post their own notices in the Event Announcements forum.

Charities/Rescues – Announcements for charitable or fundraising events can only be made for 501(c)(3) tax-exempt organizations. Special exceptions may be made, at the moderators’ discretion and direction, for board-related events or fundraising activities in extraordinary circumstances.

Occasional posts regarding horses available for adoption through IRS-registered horse rescue or placement programs are permitted in the appropriate forums, but these threads may be limited at the discretion of the moderators. Individuals may not advertise or make announcements for horses in need of rescue, placement or adoption unless the horse is available through a recognized rescue or placement agency or government-run entity or the thread fits the criteria for and is located in the Giveaways forum.

5. Do not post copyrighted photographs unless you have purchased that photo and have permission to do so.

6. Respect other members.
As members are often passionate about their beliefs and intentions can easily be misinterpreted in this type of environment, try to explore or resolve the inevitable disagreements that arise in the course of threads calmly and rationally.

If you see a post that you feel violates the rules of the board, please click the “alert” button (exclamation point inside of a triangle) in the bottom left corner of the post, which will alert ONLY the moderators to the post in question. They will then take whatever action, or no action, as deemed appropriate for the situation at their discretion. Do not air grievances regarding other posters or the moderators in the discussion forums.

Please be advised that adding another user to your “Ignore” list via your User Control Panel can be a useful tactic, which blocks posts and private messages by members whose commentary you’d rather avoid reading.

7. We have the right to reproduce statements made in the forums.
The Chronicle of the Horse may copy, quote, link to or otherwise reproduce posts, or portions of posts, in print or online for advertising or editorial purposes, if attributed to their original authors, and by posting in this forum, you hereby grant to The Chronicle of the Horse a perpetual, non-exclusive license under copyright and other rights, to do so.

8. We reserve the right to enforce and amend the rules.
The moderators may delete, edit, move or close any post or thread at any time, or refrain from doing any of the foregoing, in their discretion, and may suspend or revoke a user’s membership privileges at any time to maintain adherence to the rules and the general spirit of the forum. These rules may be amended at any time to address the current needs of the board.

Please see our full Terms of Service and Privacy Policy for more information.

Thanks for being a part of the COTH forums!

(Revised 1/26/16)
See more
See less

Shoulder-In Help..

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Shoulder-In Help..

    I have a 7 year old 17hh Irish Sport Horse gelding and he is ready to start shoulder ins. I want him to learn them in the best way possible. He is still pretty green.

    How did you teach your horse? That is all I want to know is how did you teach your horse.


    Any training tips will be greatly appreciated!!!



    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=87pIU95l9zI
    Last edited by TheBrightSide06; Jan. 29, 2009, 11:06 AM.
    Please visit the Donate page!

    https://justworldeventer.squarespace.com

  • #2
    Start it at the walk. Always start anything like that at the walk: shoulder in, haunches in, half pass, renvers. That way he can figure out where to put his feet. Second level test one sets you up for your first shoulder in by coming off a 10m circle so you get the right amount of bend around your leg. The most important part is making sure he brings his shoulders off the track and doesn't scoot his butt off the track to the outside. Make sure you start it on a wall and that will help. I have to put my outside leg back and on a decent bit on my boy to keep his butt in place. If you can get it at the walk pretty consistently then the trot won't be so bad. If you just start it at the trot you'll probably be wiggling all over the place! The other best advice: patience is a virtue! Shoulder in was my nemesis for a while. It was hard for my horse going one way and we both were learning together. If you have a friend who has a horse that is confirmed in shoulder in see if you can hop on her horse. It's easier to teach your horse if you know what it should feel like. Good luck!

    Comment

    • Original Poster

      #3
      thanks!

      Originally posted by n2dressage View Post
      Start it at the walk. Always start anything like that at the walk: shoulder in, haunches in, half pass, renvers. That way he can figure out where to put his feet. Second level test one sets you up for your first shoulder in by coming off a 10m circle so you get the right amount of bend around your leg. The most important part is making sure he brings his shoulders off the track and doesn't scoot his butt off the track to the outside. Make sure you start it on a wall and that will help. I have to put my outside leg back and on a decent bit on my boy to keep his butt in place. If you can get it at the walk pretty consistently then the trot won't be so bad. If you just start it at the trot you'll probably be wiggling all over the place! The other best advice: patience is a virtue! Shoulder in was my nemesis for a while. It was hard for my horse going one way and we both were learning together. If you have a friend who has a horse that is confirmed in shoulder in see if you can hop on her horse. It's easier to teach your horse if you know what it should feel like. Good luck!

      My pony knows shoulder in, half pass, haunches in, and we even played a bit with piaffe and some pirouettes. I know what it feels like, I just need to learn how to teach a younger, less supple horse how to.
      Please visit the Donate page!

      https://justworldeventer.squarespace.com

      Comment


      • #4
        On this forum, and the dressage one, you are told how to do it (and you know how apparently). The question then is when to present it at all. It is not just being able to create the exercise, but what the exercise brings to better balance, more engagement, higher collection, opened bearing. It is simply inappropriate for a use on a very green horse, they must do all the work of first level well before it is presented (wtc, lengthen stride, be on to bit, not dropped behind, etc).

        A few other comments: this is a very talented horse, and you are generally well aligned in your seat. However, the hands must stay closer together, the elbows bended (esp in trot work) with the upper arms vertical). The timing of the aids must be explained and improved. But for usefullness (esp for sf/si) the walk work the horse must be allowed to bascule/telescope within the gait. If you attempted to do sf or si at this point in the horses training in it would be very problematic. Because of the lack of flexability in your shoulder socket and elbow in the walk the horse does not stay out/open to the bridle, instead it starts to lower/curl/'peck' within its neck. First job is to be able feed the reins out and take them up without changing the energy of the walk or causing the neck's telescoping action to be restricted. Only then will the trot be (more) relaxed in the lumbar back. Keep trying to get the feeling/energy that you get in a caveletti or to a fence. The second job is to be able to ride an effective hh (again, shades of how a horse approaches a fence in front of the leg), then the hindlegs will take longer strides and allow the energy to be formed (ie into a shoulder fore or in).
        I.D.E.A. yoda

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by ideayoda View Post
          A few other comments: this is a very talented horse, and you are generally well aligned in your seat. However, the hands must stay closer together, the elbows bended (esp in trot work) with the upper arms vertical). The timing of the aids must be explained and improved. But for usefullness (esp for sf/si) the walk work the horse must be allowed to bascule/telescope within the gait. If you attempted to do sf or si at this point in the horses training in it would be very problematic. Because of the lack of flexibility in your shoulder socket and elbow in the walk the horse does not stay out/open to the bridle, instead it starts to lower/curl/'peck' within its neck. First job is to be able feed the reins out and take them up without changing the energy of the walk or causing the neck's telescoping action to be restricted. Only then will the trot be (more) relaxed in the lumbar back. Keep trying to get the feeling/energy that you get in a caveletti or to a fence. The second job is to be able to ride an effective half halt (again, shades of how a horse approaches a fence in front of the leg), then the hind legs will take longer strides and allow the energy to be formed (ie into a shoulder fore or in).
          I agree. There are some issues to sort out first.
          The bold phrases I agree with and will be your down fall at this point (when it comes to your goal of SI). Pretty much they mean that your feel and connection are not established at this point.
          There is no established half halt here.

          Yes, lovely horse and he trots around all pretty like but in reality, there is nothing going on.
          Not much connection and a total lack of butt usage. And the more forward he goes the more behind him his hind legs become. It's great to have a horse with natural talent. Their every day is better then most horses good days. So now you have to make your good day better then your everyday, which you have not addressed yet. Does that make sense? Everyday greatness is only the topping. Go down there and find the rest of the volcano. Time to put some pressure on.

          That being said, SF and then some SI will help you bring his hind end under him.


          He is still pretty green, knows turn on the forehand/haunches, leg yielding, collections, and extensions.

          From the video presented I'm thinking there is less understanding from the horse's standpoint then what you feel.
          You cannot extend without collection and SI comes well before a true established connection.

          Hence the reason you see SI and trot LENGTHEN in a Prelim test but NO Collection until Intermediate.
          And then Intermediate has Medium trots and collected trots.
          Advanced has extensions, mediums, and collect.

          Remember, lengthen comes from a working trot.
          Medium and Extension comes from a collected trot.
          From the video you're horse clearly has working and some beginnings of lengthen.


          Now, as you've gotten more then you asked for, to answer your real question:
          For shoulder in, yes, walk is good first.
          half halt in the corner, get him up and under a little more
          put on your inside leg AT THE GIRTH because he is to bend around your leg like a 10m circle, support with the outside leg behind the girth and hold on to that outside rein. You must also lift your hands and carry them in the correct position from now on. The rein is what keeps him from going to the center of the arena and keeps him on the rail.
          If you can do it with a schooled horse you can do it with a green horse.
          It's a very simple move to say the least. Easier then leg yield I think because the horse wants to bend. Most get a little miffed when they have to stay so straight with LY.
          http://kaboomeventing.com/
          http://kaboomeventing.blogspot.com/
          Horses are amazing athletes and make no mistake -- they are the stars of the show!

          Comment


          • #6
            For teaching green horses to develop a good shouldar-in. Will work them from the ground, having the them learn to pivot around me in both directions and stepping across and in front of their supporting legs. While mounted, I work on shouldar-fore at the walk and trot. As the horse develops strength and balance the angle can be increased developing a solid, forward, and resistant-free shouldar-in. Best of luck in your training.

            Comment


            • #7
              Your horse a bit unbalanced in that video, but that thing can move. What breed is he? How old? I really quite like him. He looks a bit of a baby in how he wiggles a bit. I don't have time to do the shoulder in thing for you right now

              Comment

              • Original Poster

                #8
                Originally posted by Jagged View Post
                Your horse a bit unbalanced in that video, but that thing can move. What breed is he? How old? I really quite like him. He looks a bit of a baby in how he wiggles a bit. I don't have time to do the shoulder in thing for you right now
                Yea, we are teaching him to balance and he is really improving.
                Ha! Thank you so much! He is an Irish Sport Horse and he just turned 7.
                Please visit the Donate page!

                https://justworldeventer.squarespace.com

                Comment


                • #9
                  look here http://www.chronicleforums.com/Forum...d.php?t=178116
                  you need to learn the half halts before the si and leg yeilds
                  look at the fourth link before janes then read janes to

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    I don't think this horse is doing extensions and collections as in the video he's not even really using his butt and there's not a lot of half-halt going on.... he is just trotting faster and trotting slower with his hind legs strung out behind him.... if you cannot feel that you probably are not going to be able to get correct shoulder in, and incorrect shoulder in causes significant problems.... Shoulder in is a COLLECTED movement, and is used to improve collection and use of the hindquarters..... he needs to be really solid in working gaits and half-halting and carrying himself first.

                    There is a difference between 'tricks' and 'dressage movements'. There is a 'trainer' near here who quit taking lessons with me because she wanted to work on "half pass" and I wanted her to be able to trot with her horse on the bit first! Yes, her 'dressage horse' would go sideways at the trot and canter, very flashy, he looked very spirited with his ears up her nose too! Another 'trainer' called me for lessons b/c she wanted to show 2nd level, she executed canter/walk transitions with no contact by grinding her butt into her horse's back until he broke with his head in the air and thought she was good to go. Don't fall into that trap!

                    Jennifer
                    Third Charm Event Team

                    Comment

                    • Original Poster

                      #11
                      Guys, I am just wanting to know how YOU taught YOUR horse how to shoulder-in, not how I should teach MY horse how to shoulder-in.
                      I just wanted to know different techniques you have used to teach them.
                      I know what I need to work on, that lesson was getting him lower, not about shoulder-in. We have both improved since then and it is kind of hurting when people are telling me "No way you could improve in a few weeks."
                      Kobie is very smart and he learns very fast. That is why I say we have gotten better since last lesson...
                      Please visit the Donate page!

                      https://justworldeventer.squarespace.com

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        A method to Shoulder In

                        SillyKobe

                        Very nice horse, 3 good gaits and you sit well and seem to have a good relationship with your horse. I agree it is time to ask more, here is my training path to shoulder in, take what you may, I hope an additional insight helps.

                        First always consider the German training scale when working. The first four levels of Rhythm, Relaxation, Connection and then Imuplsion need to be kept in succession for good development.

                        First a responsive gait, rhythmic and in front of the leg is essential. Start with the slowest gait and work up.

                        Second when the horse is responsive then be specific, will you move away from my leg? Again start slow. At the Halt, turn on the forehand must be precise and controled and in both directions equally. Next will you move the hind quarters at the walk - leg yield. Again both directions equally and able to control the haunches VERY IMPORTANT because the most frequent mistake of the SI is the haunches go out so they must be controlled with the leg behind the girth. LY should also be done at the trot with a fairly straight horse.

                        Third. Starting SI. Remember the focus is to move the outside shoulder to the inside of the track in either a shoulder fore (inside hind leg between the prints of the fore legs) or shoulder in. The horse must also wait for the outside rein, this means you ask when there is bend, this is not yet a Half Halt but the horse must know how to wait and keep stepping (don't stop the hindlegs). This can be quickly taught but riding deep corners and making down transitions going into the corners. Now you have an aid for the horse to wait and thus the opportunity to change the direction of the shoulders.

                        Fourth. Making SI. Good advise in this thread before. Start at the walk. In the walk I don't use the circle so much as turn the horse in, push a couple of strides with the insidel leg at the girth to direct the inside hindleg toward the outside diagonal shoulder. Go 3 or 4 steps and straighten, reward with a softer rein or maybe a pat on the neck. Repeat. Get to where you can do this 3 times on a long side in each direction. You can make circles to rebalance and prepare. This is where I think the circle is best, not to start the SI, but finish your circle go straight and ask again. If you do it off the circle, say on the left hand, you are circling left and then telling the horse to go right - can be confusing. I prefer to bend and turn the horse from the straight line all the while telling the horse to continue to the right with my inside leg and always being on guard with the outside leg to steady the haunches.

                        Going Ahead. Do this 3 times one direction, 3 times the other. Take a break with some trot and surpentines or even canter work. Come back and do it again, 3 left, 3 right. As the horse gets the idea and if the balance is not compormised or the relaxation or quality of connection, I will try in the trot as well.

                        Personally I find if the horse is taught in this manner and has a good idea about moving from the leg, waiting from the "steady aids" (hand, shoulder, back and seat) that shoulder in can be done quite early with a horse, 3 months under saddle, a few strides at a time is good.

                        I hope this helps, I know it is long but the communication must be clear, sequential and should not interfere with the training scale. The hore must be more relaxed after the exercise than when it was introduced.

                        Comment

                        Working...
                        X