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So what is the general opinion of the stadium refusal rule...4 faults instead of 10

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  • So what is the general opinion of the stadium refusal rule...4 faults instead of 10

    I am starting to find myself not very happy about this new rule. I am trying to be more fair however and want to know what you all think as well.

    It seems to me that a disobediance such as a refusal to jump would be worse than a rail.

    And yes I am miffed because I was clean in my event this weekend and 3 people with stops in stadium beat me. My dressage score was ugly but still I am not of the mindset that a better dressage horse who quits in stadium deserves to beat my poor dressage but great jumping horse.

    Ok well thats why I am curious... now what do you all think?

    ~Emily

    "The brave may not live forever, but the cautious never truly live at all"
    "Courage is not the absence of fear but rather the judgment that something is more important than fear. The brave may not live forever but the cautious do not live at all." ~2001 The Princess Diaries
  • Original Poster

    #2
    I am starting to find myself not very happy about this new rule. I am trying to be more fair however and want to know what you all think as well.

    It seems to me that a disobediance such as a refusal to jump would be worse than a rail.

    And yes I am miffed because I was clean in my event this weekend and 3 people with stops in stadium beat me. My dressage score was ugly but still I am not of the mindset that a better dressage horse who quits in stadium deserves to beat my poor dressage but great jumping horse.

    Ok well thats why I am curious... now what do you all think?

    ~Emily

    "The brave may not live forever, but the cautious never truly live at all"
    "Courage is not the absence of fear but rather the judgment that something is more important than fear. The brave may not live forever but the cautious do not live at all." ~2001 The Princess Diaries

    Comment


    • #3
      Hi !

      Is this a US rule then ?

      Or does it apply to FEI levels also ...

      It is not so in the non-FEI levels in Canada ... as far as I know ...

      Yours in sport,

      Lynn
      ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
      I'm out of my mind, but feel free to leave a message...
      Suerte Hostage Crisis Survivor
      ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

      Comment


      • #4
        It is an FEI rule. The US has decided to make the "National" rules match the FEI rules.

        The expectation is that if you have a refusal, you will also have time faults.

        If people are having refusals and not getting time faults, then the stadium time is probably being measured too generously. (This would certainly apply at the higher levels, not sure if it applies to BN and N where the speed is pretty generouus.)

        Janet
        chief feeder and mucker for Music, Spy, Belle, and Brain
        Janet

        chief feeder and mucker for Music, Spy, Belle and Tiara. Someone else is now feeding and mucking for Chief and Brain (both foxhunting now).

        Comment


        • #5
          I agree with you. I have a hard time seeing a refusal in the same penalty as a rail. I think that if the horse stops there should be much more weight especially if he is stopping in the stadium round.
          RIP My Beautiful Kevin
          2003-2009
          RIP Sweet Ella
          2009-2011

          Comment


          • #6
            I agree with Janet. Since time is now penalized at 1 penalty per second over, a refusal should always result in more penaties than just the 4. In a sense this is going to put the onus on the stadium course designers to make more challenging stdium courses. Of course not much can be done at the lower levels, however, it makes great sense to me at upper levels.

            Reed

            They sicken of the calm who know the storm - Dorothy Parker

            Comment


            • #7
              While a refusal "should" always result in time faults, it doesn't always, especially at BN-N and sometimes T. The problem is that this rule is designed for upper levels... and it works beautifully there. However, upper levels and lower levels aren't the same thing and due to lower speeds, all we're teaching people is that if you have a stop, you need to run hell bent for leather over the rest of the course to make time -- and they do!! So we institute speed faults on XC to keep that from happening and then essentially ENCOURAGE it in SJ??? Makes NO sense to me. Why the hell do we HAVE to match the FEI anyway???

              ************
              If Dressage is a Symphony... Eventing is Rock & Roll!!!

              "All's well that ends with cute E.R. doctors, I always say." -- Buffy
              ************
              "Of course it's hard. It's supposed to be hard. It's the Hard that makes it great."

              "Get up... Get out... Get Drunk. Repeat as needed." -- Spike

              Comment


              • #8
                Possibly I'm a bit biased on this subject since I seem to have a stadium "machine" but, to me, a refusal should incur more penalties than a rail, regardless of time issues. Especially at the lower levels where the time is either very generous or non-existent, it's even more important to emphasize jumping vs. non-jumping.

                At the lower levels (not that I'd know anything about upper levels; I'm sweating bullets thinking about running Novice in August) the stadium jumps simply aren't big enough to worry much about bad spots or perfect lines. IMO, most horses can get over anything up through Novice with very little piloting from riders. Given that, why not penalize a stop more than a rail, especially if time faults are not as likely to be a factor?

                I'm not sure it would make sense to have a different set of rules for BN, N, and T as far as stadium penalties go, but if, as reported elsewhere, most of our riders are riding at that level, wouldn't it make sense that if there's going to be a "discrepancy" or similar in the rules shouldn't the idea be to have the greatest fairness for the greatest number of riders? (Was that a long enough run-on sentence?!) I guess I'd have to agree with TLE and ask why we need to match the FEI when most US eventers don't ride (and may never ride) at that level.

                I'm not sure if that made sense, but I guess what I'm trying to say is that if the idea is that a refusal will also incur time penalties and that isn't happening at the lower levels (and for the majority of riders) then maybe we need to rethink the rule. Yes, we should all be attempting to put in good dressage tests (after all, good dressage is the basis for good jumping), but it doesn't seem quite right that even an excellent dressage test when combined with jumping penalties should beat a mediocre dressage test and flawless stadium and XC rounds.

                Ok, I'm pretty sure I'm no longer making sense so I think I'll stop here.

                Lorree

                Reality is the only word in the language that should always be used in quotes.
                Originally posted by King's Ransom
                "Now, did you really mean that I should half-pass to the right whilst turning on the haunches to the left? Or was that just you farting?"

                Comment


                • #9
                  very simply...

                  It is my unbiased and very fancy opinion that the rule change sucks it.

                  --- Always do sober what you said you'd do drunk. That will teach you to keep your mouth shut.
                  ------------------------------
                  Life Goes On

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Ok, after thinking about this my opinion hasn't changed (still think it sucks but like loree, I have an SJ machine), but modified. My earlier question on why the hell do we need to mimick FEI rules... well, now I'd say why that has to be done at BN-T. Because of the strict qualification standards on penalties for FEI events (ie: no more than 16 penalties in SJ) I can understand for Prelim + (don't like it but can understand it). However, I still don't see the need to change below that because, as already stated, it doesn't "work" the way the rule is intended.

                    ************
                    If Dressage is a Symphony... Eventing is Rock & Roll!!!

                    "All's well that ends with cute E.R. doctors, I always say." -- Buffy
                    ************
                    "Of course it's hard. It's supposed to be hard. It's the Hard that makes it great."

                    "Get up... Get out... Get Drunk. Repeat as needed." -- Spike

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      While I prefer the old rule, I see a downside in asking the horse to jump no matter what. It's not fair to repeatedly ask a horse to jump from a bad distance -- and I've seen more of this at all levels than makes me comfortable.

                      I've noticed that course design in showjumping has improved this year, at least in California. A few recent courses have really tested accuracy and adjustability -- one course this year was quite simply the best-designed SJ course I've ever seen in eventing (credit goes to Mark Watring, who rode in the Olympics in eventing and then became a showjumping pro). There were very few decent rides at Prelim and Training, even the pros were popping fences badly, but I think a lot of riders learned where they could make some improvements.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        caballo, you make some good points but I don't agree with what you're saying about dressage as the "core of eventing". Going by what I see out here on the west coast, this sort of thinking keeps lower level riders from progressing.

                        You have to learn to ride the horse up into your hand for both dressage and jumping. This means a horse who's not behind the bit or 'faking it' in a dressage frame. True connection has power and energy whether you're trotting a 20m circle or cantering a big oxer. I see people in the dressage ring cantering without enough impulsion to get over a pole on the ground, and unfortunately, many judges seem to think this is ok.

                        My 19 year-old draft cross does not do well in dressage. He moves well and forward, he's obedient, but he's got unusual conformation -- he's also part Saddlebred -- and he doesn't score well. When jumping, he is adjustable, careful and he listens to the rider. In other words, the sort of connection and communication you achieve through proper training. A horse like this can take a beginner from Novice to Prelim in a few years, as he did with the 15 year-old who rides him now.

                        IMO, most event riders are weakest in the SJ ring. There's a lot of finesse and accuracy involved in SJ, and working with a good SJ specialist can do wonders for your skills and your horse's suppleness and adjustablility -- and you'll also notice that it improves your dressage.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          working on good s/j will also improve your XC. But I think asking a horse to run around a technical XC at a three-day and then come back for a tougher s/j is pushing it a bit. The original test was designed just to show that a horse could come back soundly and jump a course in hand. As it's progressing, it's "come back and jump a tough course in hand!" I think the horses keep improving, as do the riders, but at some point it must be pointed out that eventing is not a show-jumping competition.

                          With this in mind, I think that a refusal to jump often reflects a smart horse! Particularly when the riders get them there badly, as JER points out!

                          Robby

                          http://community.webshots.com/user/rbjohnsonii
                          When blood is the beverage of choice, the sharpest fangs feed first.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
                            ...it is my understanding that dressage is the core of eventing - ability to communicate with the horse is learned on the flat, not over fences, and is what will save your a$$ in tight situations on XC when you are faced with related distances, tight turns, and the need for precision.
                            <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

                            I can't disagree more. If there is any single thing that eventing is about it is about a horse moving confidently forward. Always forward. The risks to horse and rider are much more elevated when the horse stops going forward. And while I always hear so much about god-awful rounds with people racing around, those rounds that scare me much, much more are the ones that the horse lopes around and doesn't punch of the ground or sucks back in front of the fences. THOSE are the peole that end up hurt.

                            One of the biggest things I learned as I moved up the levels was that when you get in trouble if you can keep the horse moving forward you give him a good chance to recover. FORWARD is what saves your a$$ in a tight situation!

                            As far as dressage being the end all be all--aren't we awfully short sighted here? Dressage is NOT the only way we learn to communicate with horses. There are many horse sports/disiplines that NEVER bring "proper dressage" into their training and those horse and riders have wonderful communication.

                            I'm not saying that dressage isn't useful or that its benefits should be discounted. But to assume that a horse that is less than proficient in dressage has a lack of communication in other disiplines is just bogus. In my own situation my TB has always been more relaxed and "available" at the gallop--imagine that a horse that is bred to gallop is the most comfortable galloping. Yet I'm still waiting for the "gallop" to be incorporated in those FEI dressage tests.

                            So after that long winded justification--a refusal at stadium should knock you out of the ribbons at any level. Why put so much emphasis on going forward in XC (so much so that your out of the ribbons) then change the tune for stadium?

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> If there is any single thing that eventing is about it is about a horse
                              moving confidently forward. Always forward. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>But that IS what dressage is all about. If it isn't "forward", it isn't good dressage.

                              Janet
                              chief feeder and mucker for Music, Spy, Belle, and Brain
                              Janet

                              chief feeder and mucker for Music, Spy, Belle and Tiara. Someone else is now feeding and mucking for Chief and Brain (both foxhunting now).

                              Comment


                              • #16
                                I agree going forward is vital to good dressage, however it is not, as you say, what it is "ALL" about. It is not necessary to do dressage to teach a horse to go forward.

                                Comment


                                • #17
                                  <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Hmm ... is it a coincidence that in this day and age most four stars are won on the dressage?
                                  <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

                                  If you can finish on your dressage at a four star, you are an amazing rider and deserve a top ribbon. But you need to look at your stats again. The winning dressage horse at the WEG did not win. Also, stats will show that riders that can go double clear on xc day will move WAY up in the placings at a four star.

                                  At horse trials I would not be surprised if someone told me that more often than not, the horse leading after dressage does not win the competition.

                                  Comment


                                  • #18
                                    I didn't say that the horses that win dressage don't win. I said horses that go double clear move WAY up the standings.

                                    The winners at four stars are AMAZING riders with fantastic horses that are ALL AROUND athletes. These are fit, well trained horses competing against fit, well trained horses. I believe we are talking about horse trials at the lower levels in this post.

                                    You cannot compare a four star horse to a novice horse trial horse. I'd rather see riders jumping around safely with terrible dressage tests than the other way around. So many riders focus on dressage because they think that is the way to win, then they scare the heck out of all spectators in the xc and stadium and still manage to win.

                                    PLENTY of riders who do a very nice job over fences would never WIN a dressage test. A schooled horse does not necessarily involve a horse that goes around on the vertical with lofty gaits. And believe me, the average hunter/jumper knows ALOT more about rhythm and balance than your average eventer, so dressage is not the exclusive avenue to find those qualities.

                                    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Most horses in the U.S. today have horses with Thoroughbred blood that contradicts the old fashioned need to generate impulsion." <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> I don't understand what you mean here.

                                    Comment

                                    • Original Poster

                                      #19
                                      <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by caballo_saltando:
                                      As far as the original poster's whining about her horse's bad dressage but good stadium and that he should have beat the horse's with the reverse:

                                      I am in no way qualified to lecture to anyone about this sport, but it is my understanding that dressage is the core of eventing - ability to communicate with the horse is learned on the flat, not over fences, and is what will save your a$$ in tight situations on XC when you are faced with related distances, tight turns, and the need for precision. So if you can't win on your dressage than that just tells you you need to go back to your basics and get that down.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

                                      Let me TRY to re-explain my point.

                                      Despite my horse being tense, and my anxiety that came up because of this, his score was not sooo terrible. Nor is he a bad dressage horse. His last event he finished second with a 35.5. This test however we earned a 46.5.

                                      I accept my part in this, being tense and trying to do a better test than was possible at the moment. But let me re-iterate the point was not to "Whine."

                                      But really does it make sense that a horse, not just mine anyone's, that performs all three phases without grevious errors, should be beaten by another that has disobediance problems in any of the three phases?? Stops are bad. They show a lack of obediance and or training. And yes sometimes the spots just suck.

                                      I mean this event was an exception because it lacked any time penalities in either xc or st. So thus the idea behind the stop and time combining for more faults was not apparent.

                                      I think overall the rule may indeed have value at Prelim and above, but again I think we are finding ourselves with a bad rule before a better rule. (Remember the 1 point per second time rule for xc... wow did that blow!)

                                      So lets try to move forward and see if we can get a better stadium rule for the lower levels.

                                      And meanwhile Nick and I will be working on our dressage since, god forbid I ignore the "Core of Eventing"

                                      ~Emily

                                      "The brave may not live forever, but the cautious never truly live at all"
                                      "Courage is not the absence of fear but rather the judgment that something is more important than fear. The brave may not live forever but the cautious do not live at all." ~2001 The Princess Diaries

                                      Comment


                                      • #20
                                        If you want to win consistently though, you MUST do well in the dressage. And to go clean consistantly in the more technical stadium courses we are seeing these days, a horse must be forward and listening well-two of the main things that dressage is all about. If a horse can not do a lower level dressage test reasonably well, in my opinion, it shouldn't be doing that much jumping! Just because it can get over the fence doesn't mean it is jumping safely or well. And many people are confusing "forward" with "fast", something that can be fixed with good dressage basics.

                                        I see so many wrecks that were so preventable, but people think by making their horse go fast that they are going "forward", but instead they end up running their horse off his feet, getting him off balance, and then some horses get scared and stop. Going at that pace the rider often gets catapulted off, or the horse hits the fence and goes end over end. If the riders would ride their horses jumping the way they should be riding in the dressage, many of these accidents would not happen.

                                        <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Gry2Yng:
                                        I didn't say that the horses that win dressage don't win. I said horses that go double clear move WAY up the standings.

                                        The winners at four stars are AMAZING riders with fantastic horses that are ALL AROUND athletes. These are fit, well trained horses competing against fit, well trained horses. I believe we are talking about horse trials at the lower levels in this post.

                                        You cannot compare a four star horse to a novice horse trial horse. I'd rather see riders jumping around safely with terrible dressage tests than the other way around. So many riders focus on dressage because they think that is the way to win, then they scare the heck out of all spectators in the xc and stadium and still manage to win.

                                        PLENTY of riders who do a very nice job over fences would never WIN a dressage test. A schooled horse does not necessarily involve a horse that goes around on the vertical with lofty gaits. And believe me, the average hunter/jumper knows ALOT more about rhythm and balance than your average eventer, so dressage is not the exclusive avenue to find those qualities.

                                        <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Most horses in the U.S. today have horses with Thoroughbred blood that contradicts the old fashioned need to generate impulsion." <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> I don't understand what you mean here.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

                                        Karen Vicencio
                                        Karen Vicencio

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