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  • Impractical Horsewoman
    replied
    Originally posted by Xctrygirl View Post

    And we know a friends family memory who literally never left and was exposed to it through her Delivered groceries
    Wow, that's awful! Particularly since I'm sure this person was elderly or compromised, since she was sheltering in her home. From what I understand, though, surface contamination isn't really much of a factor in spreading. Was it through an extended verbal interaction with the delivery person? Are they sure it was through groceries and not through someone else in the home?

    Leave a comment:


  • RAyers
    replied
    Originally posted by groom View Post

    I was interviewing for a coursebuilding job several years ago with one of the millionaire event owners. He asked what kind of liability insurance I carry, and I answered "Poverty". But it is true, and he knew it all too well. The surest way to avoid lawsuits is to have nothing to steal. The millionaire laughed, and tried to hire me, but I ultimately declined. It would have meant breaking ties with one of my LL working-class events, and I know they are 10x as dependable as millionaires. And a lot more fun to be around. Hey, 2020 - looks like a lot more people are adopting my economic strategy!
    I know I am. You are spot on. Sadly that is why I said what I said. Even the USEA doesn’t have that much.

    In my experience when somebody approaches me with a product liability case (I work as a consulting expert), when I tell them how much it will really cost for me to conduct a thorough investigation, really examine all of the physical evidence, review all the records and scour the scientific and engineering literature, many times they quit when they realize how much they will get versus what they need to spend to get that. And it may takes months to years.

    Leave a comment:


  • groom
    replied
    Originally posted by RAyers View Post

    What stops most suits is cost versus return.
    I was interviewing for a coursebuilding job several years ago with one of the millionaire event owners. He asked what kind of liability insurance I carry, and I answered "Poverty". But it is true, and he knew it all too well. The surest way to avoid lawsuits is to have nothing to steal. The millionaire laughed, and tried to hire me, but I ultimately declined. It would have meant breaking ties with one of my LL working-class events, and I know they are 10x as dependable as millionaires. And a lot more fun to be around. Hey, 2020 - looks like a lot more people are adopting my economic strategy!

    Leave a comment:


  • RAyers
    replied
    Originally posted by groom View Post

    Assuming what you assert is true, why would anyone have anything to do with the business of Eventing?
    In the US we are toeing the line of liability. It will take one lawsuit and the sport will be in serous trouble. At this point past lawsuits were poorly considered and organized. What stops most suits is cost versus return. In many cases at the level of USEA and organizers there is insufficient compensation compared to the cost of litigation.

    And there is a reason why events are closing down. It is no longer worth it.

    Exactly BNFE. Given where I work we have weekly updates on Covid ICU occupation. I have used this to aid the local horse trial Safety Coordinator (sometimes me) in advising the organizer. Luckily we have 3 level 1 trauma centers and a medical school.

    Leave a comment:


  • bornfreenowexpensive
    replied
    Originally posted by frugalannie View Post
    But Reed, the ICU bed situation is so fluid in the majority of hospitals currently in most of the country that I don't know how an event can ensure that there will be ICU beds available in a non-Covid room/ ward/ floor whatever. Same for the Emergency Dept.. I don't know how the liability would flow, but say the event checked the hospital on Friday then again on the morning of XC day and there were such beds available. There's no saying that would be the case at 3pm when there's a rider fall requiring hospitalization.

    The uncertainty though is one reason some events have cancelled. The organizers are looking at these things and it’s part of their planning now. And some are cancelling well in advance because they can’t afford to incur the costs of setting up and then being cancelled. But yes....making sure the hospitals have capacity is definitely a factor and if the numbers are going up in an area....even if the event doesn’t choose to shut, the local government may shut them down. I wouldn’t get too bogged down in the liability issue....this is more of a real practical issue. But if you go online and look at the Safety Coordinator Manual for events....making sure there is hospital capacity is in there. It is actual duty no 1 (assessing the availability of local resources, including hospitals and the EMS system and using them to plan medical coverage). In today’s pandemic....this would be assessing if the hospitals are at capacity and could be reason to say we can’t hold the event safely.

    Leave a comment:


  • groom
    replied
    Originally posted by RAyers View Post

    If a rider were to be seriously injured on course and insufficient hospital access is available, the event is on the hook for having a competition without adequate safety measures in place. This obviously can flow down to even the course designer and builder for the specific fence. It can flow upward that if there is insufficient hospital access and the rider develops further complications/dies, the event was derelict in assuring that safety was followed in ensuring sufficient access.

    Thus, the liability would be that if a rider is injured while competing resulting in a trip to a facility that may not have sufficient room for ICU patients, leading to exposure of the rider to SARS-CoV-2 virus, the primary cause of liability exposure for the event is running without sufficient safety coordination in place. It is a pretty straightforward legal argument.

    While folks like to say that personal responsibility is necessary, in this case we don’t go to a horse trial expecting to get exposed to SARS-CoV-2. We do have an expectation of getting hurt though. Thus, this is why the new liability releases exist. However, releases are really only worth the paper upon which they are written.
    Assuming what you assert is true, why would anyone have anything to do with the business of Eventing?

    Leave a comment:


  • Xctrygirl
    replied
    Originally posted by Highflyer View Post
    At this point I think it's unrealistic to expect to leave your house and not risk being exposed to it.
    And we know a friends family memory who literally never left and was exposed to it through her Delivered groceries

    Leave a comment:


  • Highflyer
    replied
    At this point I think it's unrealistic to expect to leave your house and not risk being exposed to it.

    Leave a comment:


  • frugalannie
    replied
    But Reed, the ICU bed situation is so fluid in the majority of hospitals currently in most of the country that I don't know how an event can ensure that there will be ICU beds available in a non-Covid room/ ward/ floor whatever. Same for the Emergency Dept.. I don't know how the liability would flow, but say the event checked the hospital on Friday then again on the morning of XC day and there were such beds available. There's no saying that would be the case at 3pm when there's a rider fall requiring hospitalization.

    Leave a comment:


  • RAyers
    replied
    Originally posted by groom View Post

    Liable for the fall, or liable for the infection?
    If a rider were to be seriously injured on course and insufficient hospital access is available, the event is on the hook for having a competition without adequate safety measures in place. This obviously can flow down to even the course designer and builder for the specific fence. It can flow upward that if there is insufficient hospital access and the rider develops further complications/dies, the event was derelict in assuring that safety was followed in ensuring sufficient access.

    Thus, the liability would be that if a rider is injured while competing resulting in a trip to a facility that may not have sufficient room for ICU patients, leading to exposure of the rider to SARS-CoV-2 virus, the primary cause of liability exposure for the event is running without sufficient safety coordination in place. It is a pretty straightforward legal argument.

    While folks like to say that personal responsibility is necessary, in this case we don’t go to a horse trial expecting to get exposed to SARS-CoV-2. We do have an expectation of getting hurt though. Thus, this is why the new liability releases exist. However, releases are really only worth the paper upon which they are written.

    Leave a comment:


  • groom
    replied
    Originally posted by RAyers View Post

    Should a rider fall and get Covid-19 or be exposed to the SARS-CoV-2 virus, the competition is potentially liable.
    Liable for the fall, or liable for the infection?

    Leave a comment:


  • bornfreenowexpensive
    replied
    Originally posted by Marigold View Post

    Thanks for sharing. I had no idea that was a rule in place, but it's exactly what I had hoped was happening regardless. This is too important to mess up with a horse show - I'm glad it's an official rule as well as an ethical one.
    Its actually been part of the rules for several years.

    Leave a comment:


  • Marigold
    replied
    Originally posted by RAyers View Post
    By the RULES the safety coordinator at EVERY horse trial must confer with local hospitals to be sure there are sufficient resources available if a rider is seriously injured during a competition. A competition is luxury that can be controlled in terms of if or when to occur. Should a rider fall and get Covid-19 or be exposed to the SARS-CoV-2 virus, the competition is potentially liable.
    Thanks for sharing. I had no idea that was a rule in place, but it's exactly what I had hoped was happening regardless. This is too important to mess up with a horse show - I'm glad it's an official rule as well as an ethical one.

    Leave a comment:


  • RAyers
    replied
    Originally posted by SonnysMom View Post

    I think is is pretty cold. This could have happened schooling at home. At the beginning of June I was walking on my horse on a trail with a friend. He dumped me and cracked my helmet. I visited Urgent Care the next day. But I could have easily needed a trip to the ER.

    Have you given up riding during Covid? If not, then why not? Why is showing different than riding at home, at a boarding barn, lesson barn or on a trail?
    NOT cold at all!!! A true reality of what is happening due to the medical issues created by a virus never seen in humans.

    By the RULES the safety coordinator at EVERY horse trial must confer with local hospitals to be sure there are sufficient resources available if a rider is seriously injured during a competition. A competition is luxury that can be controlled in terms of if or when to occur. Should a rider fall and get Covid-19 or be exposed to the SARS-CoV-2 virus, the competition is potentially liable.

    Leave a comment:


  • Marigold
    replied
    Originally posted by Jackie Cochran View Post
    BUT this brings up one of the reasons put forth for not competing at horse shows, that someone will get injured and end up at a hospital, taking up resources in an already stressed hospital system, AND possibly exposing the injured person to Covid-19.
    I can't speak to everyone's situation, nor to what the situation was in Tryon. But in my region they update the hospital statistics daily, and break it down by patients in hospital, patients in ICU, and patients on ventilators.

    Our barn has chosen as a group to monitor that status, and reduce our riskier, elective activities (ex. riding) when the hospitals are busy sustaining COVID patients. Currently, there are only two patients in hospital in the entire region (which has multiple hospitals). Since that's hardly "stressed", we are currently riding and continuing with all normal training activities (in-barn distancing/sanitizing precautions and restrictions in place, of course). If the hospital status were to change, we would adjust accordingly.

    All of this is to say, riding during the pandemic isn't itself irresponsible for the reasons you mention - as long as you are doing so with a community-minded approach and adjusting your elective choices accordingly. For all I know (I'm not local), Tryon and the participants there may be doing exactly that.

    Leave a comment:


  • SonnysMom
    replied
    Originally posted by Jackie Cochran View Post
    So someone got injured and ended up in a hospital.

    I hope the young lady heals completely. I hope her family gets the financial help they will need.

    BUT this brings up one of the reasons put forth for not competing at horse shows, that someone will get injured and end up at a hospital, taking up resources in an already stressed hospital system, AND possibly exposing the injured person to Covid-19.

    I hope at the bottom of my heart that this does not being a tragedy.

    I'm jingling for her return to full health.
    I think is is pretty cold. This could have happened schooling at home. At the beginning of June I was walking on my horse on a trail with a friend. He dumped me and cracked my helmet. I visited Urgent Care the next day. But I could have easily needed a trip to the ER.

    Have you given up riding during Covid? If not, then why not? Why is showing different than riding at home, at a boarding barn, lesson barn or on a trail?

    Leave a comment:


  • Jackie Cochran
    replied
    So someone got injured and ended up in a hospital.

    I hope the young lady heals completely. I hope her family gets the financial help they will need.

    BUT this brings up one of the reasons put forth for not competing at horse shows, that someone will get injured and end up at a hospital, taking up resources in an already stressed hospital system, AND possibly exposing the injured person to Covid-19.

    I hope at the bottom of my heart that this does not being a tragedy.

    I'm jingling for her return to full health.

    Leave a comment:


  • Jealoushe
    replied
    Originally posted by gardenie View Post
    https://www.chronofhorse.com/article...-fall-at-tryon
    It is not eventing but deserves thought. Link to donation page there as well.
    I heard about this, so heartbreaking. Sounds like it was a rotational fall too, for those who say it can't happen with poles that fall.

    Leave a comment:


  • gardenie
    replied
    https://www.chronofhorse.com/article...-fall-at-tryon
    It is not eventing but deserves thought. Link to donation page there as well.

    Leave a comment:


  • Marigold
    replied
    Originally posted by SonnysMom View Post
    I find it interesting that my small animal vet listens the heart, checks eyes and ears every time he sees them. Yet in my area when one horse vet tried to do that as part of the vaccinations he received push back. In part for the exam fee. He eventually stopped. In my area if a horse is only getting routine vaccines the vet may never listen to their heart or take their respiration rate. Therefore if the horse was healthy up to that point he could have a heart murmur.
    I am definitely not qualified to speak about what happened in this case (beyond expressing my condolences to all connections - I can't imagine the heartbreak), but horses that were previously healthy and competent at a level can absolutely develop heart conditions that change that. An excellent example is Alison Springer's Arthur. He completed eight 5*s and had an FEI career that spanned twelve years, but developed aortic regurgitation at eighteen years old. He was fortunate to be managed by a very conscientious rider who performed not only an ultrasound, but an exercising electrocardiogram that confirmed he was no longer fit for intense work (and was also kind enough to share veterinary specifics with the broader community). Had this not been discovered when it was, he would have been out on the 5* cross-country course at Kentucky the next week (and indeed, still performed the test ride even after the discovery). We are very lucky this legend of the sport continues to be with us today.

    Details here: https://eventingnation.com/allison-s...art-condition/

    Leave a comment:

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