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    #61
    http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rider...orcycle_racing

    Comment


      #62
      And anything that's done HAS to start at the lower levels, especially when it comes to enforcing DR penalties, and longer term consequences. I jump judged and helped with the w/u ring at a local event a few weeks ago, and was appalled by what I saw with the riders at T and P. The lower levels were the usual mix of greenies (horses and riders) and were in the appropriate spot for their abilities. The PT/Novice riders, as a group, actually looked GREAT.

      Above that in the T and P groups? A couple of beautiful standout rides, and some very scary stuff. Jump judges were repeatedly calling in that "Rider X is out of control" and no one had the guts to pull them up, or issue a DR. A couple came in so fast and so flat to the jump I was at, and then hit it, I thought we were going to end up with a rotational fall... nothing to do with the jump itself (simple standard type angled vertical with an easy approach- not complicated whatsoever) or the course, but all about the riding.
      "Adulthood? You're playing with ponies. That is, like, every 9 year old girl's dream. Adulthood?? You're rocking the HELL out of grade 6, girl."

      Comment

        Original Poster

        #63
        Originally posted by Ibex View Post

        Above that in the T and P groups? A couple of beautiful standout rides, and some very scary stuff. Jump judges were repeatedly calling in that "Rider X is out of control" and no one had the guts to pull them up, or issue a DR. A couple came in so fast and so flat to the jump I was at, and then hit it, I thought we were going to end up with a rotational fall... nothing to do with the jump itself (simple standard type angled vertical with an easy approach- not complicated whatsoever) or the course, but all about the riding.
        This is true too. I think rotationals at the lower levels are more common than we think. Last fall the girl who left the box right before me had a rotational at the 3rd fence, it was dusk and I am sure the horse could not see the top of the fence. I was held for over an hour while she was ambulanced away. Did anyone go out and check the fence was still safe? Was there a report on the accident? If there was who ever hears about it? I still wonder if that girl was seriously injured or not there. You don't hear because it's just a lower level horse trial.

        Comment


          #64
          Originally posted by kmartin85 View Post
          Then I suggest not posting this topic of thread on an internet forum and keeping your discussions with your close friends who share the same thoughts as you.

          I don't see the point in crying for change for people who choose to put themselves at risk.
          I suggest you read a few history books and see what happens when because a few (yes a few as the ULs are a small fracition of the ENTIRE SPORT) people do not question or see that something is very wrong, no one else does. Is that where you get off thinking the world is a better place by not sharing & discussing; that everyhting would be A OK in the world if everyone agreed with everything all the time? Thats an inefficient backwards mindset you got going there. YOU are everything that is wrong with the sport. The culture of indifference.

          People always need others policing and regulating because a self-regulating society does not work. Really, I suggest you read some history books.

          Comment


            #65
            Originally posted by JER View Post
            Hello, Culture of Indifference.
            This whole argument about "Culture of Indifference" is absolutely ridiculous! Seriously people? Do you think ANYONE is indifferent??? What are they supposed to do? Hang out with you?

            People address the issue of serious accidents in various ways. Some contribute $$ to the those working on solutions. Others do their own research on how to be safer for themselves personally. Others go out and volunteer (in a nice accommodating manner, not in an austere derogatory one) to be part of the research, and others sit on their arses coming up with lists and accusing anyone who does not agree with them of being okay with rider deaths.

            C'mon people. Cut the negative derogatory "everyone who does not play with me is indifferent... or incompetent.... or rude..... or whatever."

            And for those who keep saying, "Do something, do something!!!" then apply those words to yourselves. Actively involve yourself in some way other than trashing those who take issue with your statements, or pointing fingers at the "Powers" saying they do not care, they are incompetent, they are indifferent, or golly gee, they were rude to me.

            Yes we need more research and we need team players... and not a culture of finger pointing, naysaying, and bashing anyone who dares advocate for an alternate perspective.

            Comment


              #66
              "You have a 1 in 10,000 shot of dying for every start and a 1 in 500 shot at a serious injury for every start. "
              1 in 10000 starts you have a chance of dying does not sound very good to me--when you consider how many events have 500 starters a weekend-- it does not take too many weekends in the usa and or gobally to get to 10,000. And that would be total starts? what are the statistics for preliminary and up --does it change- up or down?

              Comment

                Original Poster

                #67
                Originally posted by Winding Down View Post
                And for those who keep saying, "Do something, do something!!!" then apply those words to yourselves. Actively involve yourself in some way other than trashing those who take issue with your statements, or pointing fingers at the "Powers" saying they do not care, they are incompetent, they are indifferent, or golly gee, they were rude to me.
                Most of us are.

                So how about you add - don't assume you know what people are doing to make changes to support the safety of our sport to that list.

                Comment

                  Original Poster

                  #68
                  Originally posted by omare View Post
                  "You have a 1 in 10,000 shot of dying for every start and a 1 in 500 shot at a serious injury for every start. "
                  1 in 10000 starts you have a chance of dying does not sound very good to me--when you consider how many events have 500 starters a weekend-- it does not take too many weekends in the usa and or gobally to get to 10,000. And that would be total starts? what are the statistics for preliminary and up --does it change- up or down?
                  That is pretty much how we have come to the rate of a death a month this year.

                  Comment


                    #69
                    Originally posted by Beam Me Up View Post
                    There were stats posted in another thread on the past ~5 years and there had not been an increasing trend. It would be more interesting to see older stats, 80s/90s etc, if those are available.

                    It does appear that our tolerance for risk in the sport is declining. And accidents are reported more widely.

                    Everyone wants eventing to be safer, but I think the real issue is that nobody knows what to *do*
                    Most of the changes eventing has made in the name of safety have not been popular.
                    There are ideas thrown around, but no real consensus as to where the problem lies, or which changes might actually make a difference.
                    One of the reasons the changes made in the name of safety have not been popular is that they have been made in the NAME of safety only. There's no research or data to back up why a change should improve safety, there's no formal investigation process for when an incident occurs, there's nothing. The people who are well respected in fields that are relevant to understanding the safety concerns, like Reed Ayers, have basically given up at this point because they were faced with so much frustration when they tried to do anything useful. (This has all been discussed here on COTH before, you can search and find posts from the relevant people about their experiences.)

                    Right now it really seems like TPTB are more interested in "safety theater" (like air vests that have no proper data to show what they do in various types of falls but hey, people FEEL better wearing one) than in actually assessing the safety of the sport and figuring out how to make concrete improvements.

                    It really doesn't matter if things right now are worse than they were in the past or the same - it isn't acceptable risk to many people now, and that is an issue that should be addressed properly. That isn't happening.

                    Comment


                      #70
                      Originally posted by Jealoushe View Post
                      Most of us are.

                      So how about you add - don't assume you know what people are doing to make changes to support the safety of our sport to that list.
                      That is terrific, and I say that with utmost sincerity. That is a positive spin and one toward solutions. So what are people doing, people on this forum? I ask this question seriously and hearing about what we can do, what we are doing, promotes energy.

                      Comment


                        #71
                        Many threads have focused on eventing safety problems that is claiming so many horses and riders outright and leaving many maimed for life. The last one I remember, which includes what people are doing - and what frustrations have been met by those trying to change the sport is the Red Hills thread:

                        http://www.chronofhorse.com/forum/sh...r-Falls/page21

                        Again, there are many others.

                        Comment


                          #72
                          Originally posted by goodmorning View Post
                          I suggest you read a few history books and see what happens when because a few (yes a few as the ULs are a small fracition of the ENTIRE SPORT) people do not question or see that something is very wrong, no one else does. Is that where you get off thinking the world is a better place by not sharing & discussing; that everyhting would be A OK in the world if everyone agreed with everything all the time? Thats an inefficient backwards mindset you got going there. YOU are everything that is wrong with the sport. The culture of indifference.

                          People always need others policing and regulating because a self-regulating society does not work. Really, I suggest you read some history books.
                          Bless your heart!

                          Comment


                            #73
                            Originally posted by Winding Down View Post
                            This whole argument about "Culture of Indifference" is absolutely ridiculous! Seriously people? Do you think ANYONE is indifferent???
                            I would have said "Culture of Denial", but they can look pretty similar sometimes.

                            Some people just don't want to know about the problems and accidents. Some people do, but they only want to know enough to be able to convince themselves that that could never happen to them. Accepting the idea that there are systemic problems and sometimes we actually need to change what we're doing is really, really hard.

                            I don't understand USEF leadership well enough to really figure out what's going on there. It feels like about half the time they really get it and half the time they're 180 degrees off.

                            One not-unrelated question: even for non-air vests, I haven't ever seen recent research on how and how well they work. (Most recent I saw was I think 1990, Mills and Gillchrist? Ancient history.) There's got to be something newer, right? Can anyone point me at it?

                            Comment


                              #74
                              Originally posted by amb View Post
                              I would have said "Culture of Denial", but they can look pretty similar sometimes.

                              Some people just don't want to know about the problems and accidents. Some people do, but they only want to know enough to be able to convince themselves that that could never happen to them. Accepting the idea that there are systemic problems and sometimes we actually need to change what we're doing is really, really hard.

                              I don't understand USEF leadership well enough to really figure out what's going on there. It feels like about half the time they really get it and half the time they're 180 degrees off.

                              One not-unrelated question: even for non-air vests, I haven't ever seen recent research on how and how well they work. (Most recent I saw was I think 1990, Mills and Gillchrist? Ancient history.) There's got to be something newer, right? Can anyone point me at it?
                              Lots of research outside of equestrian disciplines. Air Vests are pretty routine among the lower level motocross but the higher ups spend much more as in 10k for better systems. Google will take you there.

                              Comment


                                #75
                                Originally posted by Winding Down View Post
                                This whole argument about "Culture of Indifference" is absolutely ridiculous! Seriously people? Do you think ANYONE is indifferent??? What are they supposed to do? Hang out with you?

                                People address the issue of serious accidents in various ways. Some contribute $$ to the those working on solutions. Others do their own research on how to be safer for themselves personally. Others go out and volunteer (in a nice accommodating manner, not in an austere derogatory one) to be part of the research, and others sit on their arses coming up with lists and accusing anyone who does not agree with them of being okay with rider deaths.

                                C'mon people. Cut the negative derogatory "everyone who does not play with me is indifferent... or incompetent.... or rude..... or whatever."

                                And for those who keep saying, "Do something, do something!!!" then apply those words to yourselves. Actively involve yourself in some way other than trashing those who take issue with your statements, or pointing fingers at the "Powers" saying they do not care, they are incompetent, they are indifferent, or golly gee, they were rude to me.

                                Yes we need more research and we need team players... and not a culture of finger pointing, naysaying, and bashing anyone who dares advocate for an alternate perspective.
                                Let us go back a moment and review.

                                Posts 47-50.

                                JER
                                We need an 'Eventing Death List' sticky at the top of this forum.

                                I will start a thread asking for one. We'll see what happens. I prefer not to use watered-down (like 'In Memoriam') or euphemistic language here; plain language is what this topic deserves, just as it deserves to be kept front and center in the eventing community.

                                Wish me luck.
                                Now, was she kidding, serious? I took it as a valid idea to perhaps remind us that these things happen and such a list is one we want to not add too.

                                Manahmanah responded with
                                This is the sort of henny penny business we really do not need.
                                which does not make much sense. I asked for clarification "because?" which did not get a response and JER comes back with her culture of indifference comment which was a poignant point since Mana had not really stated a reason for her/his dislike, just a knee jerk response.

                                Her request for a sticky may not gain traction, but if someone finds it offensive or bothersome, give some reason. That shows more care of the topic than just a hand wave.

                                In any other sport, the risk accepted is done by like minded and aware human beings. In the equestrian world we have a partner with no real say in the matter, required trust, and little action in regards to their safety. We participate in Eventing not despite the horse, but because of it. if JER feels there is a culture of indifference it is because us humans are more concerned about our safety before that of the horse.

                                The proof is simple, we will not simple ease back on the difficulty of the sport. Instead, we wrap more bubble wrap around us, we create jumps that break so we don't get crushed and in the mean time, the fundamental reason we are allowed to jump fences is asked to do the impossible.

                                So I don't mind a list, because I'd like the reminder that even one more human, one more horse is a failure in making change.

                                Comment


                                  #76
                                  Francisco Seabra in Spain
                                  Dream Girl at Full Gallop,
                                  Conahy's Courage at Red Hills
                                  Cadiz at Fontainebleau

                                  Comment


                                    #77
                                    Originally posted by RAyers View Post
                                    OK, then now let's really dive into the numbers:

                                    1) You have a 1 in 5 shot of s SERIOUS injury if you have a rotational fall, a 1 in 20 for nonrotational and a 1 in 50 for simply falling off.

                                    2) You have a 1 in 10,000 shot of dying for every start and a 1 in 500 shot at a serious injury for every start.

                                    In other words, at least one person for every horse trial with more than 500 entries will go home in an ambulance.

                                    Would you take this odds with you car? Your cell phone? How about your doctor or surgeon?

                                    Is that acceptable? How about if it was your turn? Your kid's turn?

                                    Do you think this rate works in other sports? Would you enjoy NASCAR, NHRA, NFL, NBA, NHL, even MMA etc. with those statistics?




                                    Coming from a research hospital POV as well as one who works with high risk manufacturing, I think this falls in the D grade range in terms of level of effort. Why, do you ask?

                                    We have a reported 1% infection rate in the OR (1 in 100 shot of having an infection develop as the result of surgery), do you know how many studies we are doing to work out how to get this to 1 in 10,000? And this is not even for high risk patients or those that include fatalities.

                                    It's about QUALITY. If this sport wants to grow, then they need a quality product.
                                    Curious. How did you come up with your probabilities, e.g., sample size, time length, etc.? I assume multi- year, given that the range of events throughout the year? And across geographic areas? You included countries outside of the US I presume? All of them? All levels?

                                    I am sure you did not just take a few months, especially given the unusually high number of accidents this year. At this point, we of course do not want to draw conclusions based on such a short time span, for obvious reasons.

                                    ??

                                    Comment


                                      #78
                                      Originally posted by Winding Down View Post
                                      This whole argument about "Culture of Indifference" is absolutely ridiculous! Seriously people? Do you think ANYONE is indifferent???
                                      You're misunderstanding and misappropriating the term 'culture of indifference'.

                                      RAyers mentioned the culture of indifference. You can read all about the horrific lab accident in 2009 at UCLA that he cites as the source of the term. It was in and out of the news for several years.

                                      The term is not meant to indicate that UCLA professors and students didn't care about lab accidents. They did -- in theory. If you'd gone on campus and asked chem profs and students 'Are you concerned about the possibility of a lab accident?' or something like that, you would find that close to 100% of respondents would say that they never wanted to have a serious lab accident, that they were careful, that lab accidents concerned them, etc.

                                      However, back at the lab, you'd see that training and supervision were skimpy, protocols weren't always followed, the more uncomfortable or bothersome parts of safety plans weren't performed every time out. The lack of rigor, the lack of 100% discipline, the just-not-bothering-this-time happened far more often than was safe. And hence the accident.

                                      Attitudes and actions don't correlate very well -- this is a well-known phenomenon in psychology. So in the case of eventing, there might be statements about safety and intermittent shows of concern, like safety seminars and so on, but the sport might not willing to undertake the deeper actions that are required for safer eventing.

                                      Comment


                                        #79
                                        I just went and looked at the LONE list on New Zealand Horsetalk.
                                        In 2007, 9 riders were killed. In 2008, 6 riders. Then the safety hoopla, and only one died in 2009. After that the numbers are:
                                        2010--4
                                        2011--1
                                        2012--0
                                        2013--2
                                        2014--3
                                        2015 (so far)--2

                                        These are the ones that made the list.

                                        So that looks as if things were definitely improving.

                                        But in 2006 there were 3; 2005--0; 2004--3; 2003--1; 2002--0; 2001--0; 2000--3. Safety was focused on after 2000, because of a rash of deaths in 1998 (5) and 1999 (5).

                                        This list is only as good as the reporting of deaths of horses and humans and serious injury to humans.

                                        Safety is only as good as the focus the events and the riders put on it. When it's in the forefront of both riders and the events, the numbers seem to be better. If there is slacking off, the numbers seem to get worse.

                                        Comment


                                          #80
                                          Originally posted by Winding Down View Post
                                          Curious. How did you come up with your probabilities, e.g., sample size, time length, etc.? I assume multi- year, given that the range of events throughout the year? And across geographic areas? You included countries outside of the US I presume? All of them? All levels?

                                          I am sure you did not just take a few months, especially given the unusually high number of accidents this year. At this point, we of course do not want to draw conclusions based on such a short time span, for obvious reasons.

                                          ??
                                          I am using the FEI stats that BNFE provided the link earlier in this very own thread! Dates are 2004-2014.

                                          JER describes what "culture of indifference" is very well. A more direct example is, you may CARE about preventing injuries in an automobile accident but it does not necessarily mean you wear your seatbelt EVERY TIME. You become "indifferent" to the risk of injury, even though the statistics say you have a good chance for an accident within x miles of home.

                                          This is why the military, airlines, even doctors and research labs and heavy industries GRILL and TEST safety almost on a continual basis. It forces the people to cease being indifferent and, at least, make safety innate so the participant does not have to think about it. I automatically put on safety glasses every where I go (literally) in work and I even wear safety glasses when I run XC.

                                          It was Peggy (the EVIL Chem Prof) who provided the UCLA example.

                                          I have one where in MY OWN LAB GROUP, where a student put his sodium azide (a SEVERE poison if it touches the skin or is ingested and a highly reactive compound) next to his lunch time peanut butter jar. To get his attention, I took a picture and sent it to EH&S and reported the incident with his name. Not pretty for him and it made the official university "What NOT to Do" lecture for the next few years.

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