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International level eventing dressage scores

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  • International level eventing dressage scores

    It seems that we are still 10 to 20 points from being competitive at International levels. Are we scored harsher here in the States or are we still not gaining ground on the riders at the top internationally. I expected to see a bigger jump in dressage scores as we get closer to Worlds but it just isn't there. It seems they are in the 20s and we are in the 40s and higher...why don't we make any headway. PatO

  • #2
    Originally posted by columbus View Post
    It seems that we are still 10 to 20 points from being competitive at International levels. Are we scored harsher here in the States or are we still not gaining ground on the riders at the top internationally. I expected to see a bigger jump in dressage scores as we get closer to Worlds but it just isn't there. It seems they are in the 20s and we are in the 40s and higher...why don't we make any headway. PatO
    I've noticed that a few of our pairs who are historically competitive internationally are scoring significantly worse this year in the US than they have at previous international competitions. They're pretty much back with the back. Whether this is indicative of lower quality work or more stringent judging, who knows. It will be interesting to see how the Rolex dressage scores shake out.

    Comment


    • #3
      From my casual observations, it seems that our dressage scores haven't been the problem-- it's finishing on them. At many international events, if US riders would finish on their dressage score-- even in the 40s, or low 50s-- they could be in the top 10.
      “A clever person solves a problem. A wise person avoids it.”
      ? Albert Einstein

      ~AJ~

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      • #4
        Originally posted by EventerAJ View Post
        At many international events, if US riders would finish on their dressage score-- even in the 40s, or low 50s-- they could be in the top 10.
        Case in point, report from Belton HT in the UK this past weekend.
        Blugal

        You never know what kind of obsessive compulsive crazy person you are until another person imitates your behaviour at a three-day. --Gry2Yng

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        • #5
          Yes, but the top 4 were in the thirties. Loughan Glen is the only one who would even have been competitive after dressage. Dressage in the 50's doesn't get you anywhere near the top ten. I still say that as a GENERAL rule it takes a 46 or below to give you a very slim chance of winning.

          And I did look at the scores, not just the article which is somewhat puffy.

          Look at the US dressage scores lately. They are just, IMO, NOT internationally competitive. You have to have a competitive dressage score before the rest means anything.
          "I'm a lumberjack, and I'm okay."
          Thread killer Extraordinaire

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          • #6
            Consider the WEG scores, dressage scores in the low 40's were pretty much the only riders in the top 10 at the end of the week. North America managed 2 in the top 10 in KY. In 2014 dressage scores in the 50's will not be in the hunt in the end!

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            • Original Poster

              #7
              Yes but why...

              It looks like we are coming to another big competition KNOWING our dressage is not good enough but there is no improvement what elements are we missing. Where are we giving up the points? Accuracy? Quality of gaits? are there multipliers at this level? Great Britain seems to have improved their dressage in the last 15 years, it isn't just Jung way better than everyone. PatO

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              • #8
                Results from Boekelo. Four riders in the top 10 had final scores in the 50s.
                Pau 2012. Again, it is possible to slip into the top 10 with a score in the 50s.
                Boekelo 2012.
                Blair Castle CCI3* 2012. The US isn't alone in average high dressage scores, at a more national event without big names.
                Olympics 2012. Actually, it was possible to be in the top 10 with a score in the 50s.
                Luhmuhlen 2012.

                That's just a few random international 3*/4* events I selected from the FEI calendar. I'm not trying to argue that our dressage scores need to get better-- there's always room for improvement, and the lower your starting score, the more room for error you have in the other two phases (time on xc, and rails in sj). However, the fact remains that a score in the low 50s can still put you in the top 10 if you are on a cross-country machine who leaves the rails up.

                Again, we should always strive to improve our dressage. But historically, success in the other two phases will always move you up the leaderboard.
                “A clever person solves a problem. A wise person avoids it.”
                ? Albert Einstein

                ~AJ~

                Comment


                • #9
                  I looked at the FEI score sheets:
                  1) Boekolo -- the dressage scores for the top ten ranged from 33.4 to 45.4 except for Izzy Taylor at 6th with a 49.
                  2) Pau --top seven scores ranged from 33.2 to 45.7 with 4 in the 30s. There were only 2 other scores in the 40s out of all the entrants. The dressage scores at Pau were unusually bad across the board.
                  3)Blair Castle--only 12 horses managed to finish at all. There were only 2 dressage scores in the 40s at all. Not representative. I do agree that the dressage scores all stunk there.
                  4)2012 Olympics--all of the top ten scores were under 50. They ranged from 39.3 (the only 30) to 48.9
                  5) Luhmuhlen --top ten dressage scores--32.8 to 49.8. 5 were in the 30s, 3 more were were under 46, and two were in the 49s.

                  If you are saying only that a double clear will make you competitive with a finishing score in the low 50s, that's true. But in actual competition, there are very few double clears and you cannot build a team on the hopes of them. Actual fact is that the lower the dressage score, the more likely a high placing.
                  "I'm a lumberjack, and I'm okay."
                  Thread killer Extraordinaire

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                  • #10
                    I think it's cultural. I don't believe most event horses in the US are taught proper dressage fundamentals. With so many horses thrown out of the potential pool so early due to poor training it drastically reduces the number of more accomplished horses to choose from later on.

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                    • #11
                      It's got to be more the rider than the horse, since so many US horses are imported with the fundamentals already in place. Now it's true that Irish horses don't get the same basic dressage training as Continental ones, but given good riders, they certainly can produce good dressage scores.
                      "I'm a lumberjack, and I'm okay."
                      Thread killer Extraordinaire

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                      • #12
                        In the UK, the eventing riders regularly compete at pure dressage shows over the winter months. It has become necessary to do so to keep up with the other European riders.

                        The Germans have such strong basic skills, instilled right from the beginning of their riding careers, they are pretty near unbeatable now they have learned to go across country.
                        "Good young horses are bred, but good advanced horses are trained" Sam Griffiths

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Willesdon View Post
                          In the UK, the eventing riders regularly compete at pure dressage shows over the winter months. It has become necessary to do so to keep up with the other European riders.

                          The Germans have such strong basic skills, instilled right from the beginning of their riding careers, they are pretty near unbeatable now they have learned to go across country.
                          Let's not forget that they've also managed to have the sport fundamentally changed to favor their technical skills and horse base, so it's more that they're awfully competitive now that the sport has changed to favor them. I still don't understand how the eventing powers let that happen. GB even handed them an olympic gold medal by picking Greenwhich as the equestrian site.

                          The Germans are still beatable when the entire team has to finish a real full length four star xc course, pass a jog and SJ the next day. They're not a shoe in at a typical WEG.

                          Where they're not very beatable is when they're allowed a "best of" team score on a short twisty faux four star like the Olympics.

                          As for the Americans, we do have pairs who can be internationally competitive in the dressage phase (Arthur and MDC), they're just not doing it this year. I am a bit perplexed at Arthur's dressage scores this year which have not been up to his usual scores but he looks pretty good in the tests, so not sure what is up with that.

                          Dressage is not our problem. Our problem is that for too many years, everyone thought dressage was the problem and the team focussed too much on picking dressage horses and praying they get around the xc course instead of starting with the premise that you must go clear with minimal time and minimal rails in SJ, then talking about the dressage.

                          Our riders should be working on their own dressage skills, independent of their team horse, so they can carry over those skills to the current team horse and future team horses.

                          Some (most) of our riders do compete a pure dressage shows down in Florida over the winter.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by NCRider View Post
                            Dressage is not our problem. Our problem is that for too many years, everyone thought dressage was the problem and the team focussed too much on picking dressage horses and praying they get around the xc course instead of starting with the premise that you must go clear with minimal time and minimal rails in SJ, then talking about the dressage.

                            Our riders should be working on their own dressage skills, independent of their team horse, so they can carry over those skills to the current team horse and future team horses.
                            Thank you. This is what I was trying to say, but you said it much better!
                            “A clever person solves a problem. A wise person avoids it.”
                            ? Albert Einstein

                            ~AJ~

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              "As for the Americans, we do have pairs who can be internationally competitive in the dressage phase (Arthur and MDC), they're just not doing it this year. I am a bit perplexed at Arthur's dressage scores this year which have not been up to his usual scores but he looks pretty good in the tests, so not sure what is up with that." NCRider

                              I find this too. Anyone care to put their two cents in? I find that at the developmental levels, the emphasis seems to be all about too much neck control in the dressage ring. Rarely do I see a horse looking where its going in the dressage ring at events, if I can be so simplistic.

                              Comment


                              • #16
                                Look at Halpin's big horse's dressage score last weekend. It sucked. And this is a horse who scored in the 30's at Burghley in 2012. We know that he HAD it in him, but does he still? Any why?
                                "I'm a lumberjack, and I'm okay."
                                Thread killer Extraordinaire

                                Comment


                                • #17
                                  Maybe some international coaching blood is needed. The whole system needs to be wiped out and start a do over.

                                  Equine Canada has launched a new program - No Boundaries Talent Indentification http://eventingnation.com/home/equin...ation-program/

                                  I take this as meaning - if you have talent, the horse, and are not in the "in crowd", you will now have a chance of being recognized and given help to pursue your dreams.

                                  A good way to scout talent. Could the US maybe develop something similar, and look past the typical riders who are picked...yet seem to rarely deliver the goods.
                                  Boss Mare Eventing Blog
                                  https://www.youtube.com/user/jealoushe

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                                  • #18
                                    Originally posted by Jealoushe View Post
                                    Maybe some international coaching blood is needed.
                                    Wait....wait....I seem to remember this happening some time before.... ;P
                                    Life doesn't have perfect footing.

                                    Bloggily entertain yourself with our adventures (and disasters):
                                    We Are Flying Solo

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                                    • #19
                                      Originally posted by Jealoushe View Post
                                      Maybe some international coaching blood is needed. The whole system needs to be wiped out and start a do over.

                                      Equine Canada has launched a new program - No Boundaries Talent Indentification http://eventingnation.com/home/equin...ation-program/

                                      I take this as meaning - if you have talent, the horse, and are not in the "in crowd", you will now have a chance of being recognized and given help to pursue your dreams.

                                      A good way to scout talent. Could the US maybe develop something similar, and look past the typical riders who are picked...yet seem to rarely deliver the goods.
                                      The US lists have had "talent spotting" for several years now...not a new concept. There were several named to lists this spring that were talent spotted on.

                                      Also - DOC is doing a great job coaching and implementing new programs and ideas. Change and improvement at the International level is not going to happen overnight.
                                      No Trouble
                                      2/2/05 - 7/29/13
                                      Rest In Peace my quirky brave boy, I will love you forever.

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                                      • #20
                                        Originally posted by vineyridge View Post
                                        Look at Halpin's big horse's dressage score last weekend. It sucked. And this is a horse who scored in the 30's at Burghley in 2012. We know that he HAD it in him, but does he still? Any why?
                                        Did you watch the test?

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