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Speed Study Begins to Uncover Interesting Implications Between Long and Short Format

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  • Speed Study Begins to Uncover Interesting Implications Between Long and Short Format

    I will be presenting this data in New Orleans. Suffice to say that when comparing a CCI* and CIC* run at the same venue at the same competition, guess which division has a FASTER XC average speed?

    Reed

  • #2
    Interesting!
    I trust you to know how to design a good experiment, so how much did course lengths vary between the two and how did you account for that?
    I evented just for the Halibut.

    Comment


    • #3
      teaser
      That I have no use for them, does not mean, that I don't know them and don't know how to use them.
      Caveman extraordinair

      Comment

      • Original Poster

        #4
        Originally posted by NeverTime View Post
        Interesting!
        I trust you to know how to design a good experiment, so how much did course lengths vary between the two and how did you account for that?
        Good question!

        The data is "normalized" on time so distance has no bearing

        Give we take data points at any time between every 1-7 seconds, we do not need to account for overall course length. In other words, we collect up to 100 speed data points for each rider on course and then we can compare those, what I call "instantaneous speeds" against other riders. Thus we measure a TRUE average speed. When I smooth the signals, the difference becomes even more obvious.

        One thing to note is that the TRUE average speed on course is almost always LESS than the speed listed (e.g. 550 mpm). Almost not rider made that, however, many of them had instantaneous speeds up to 950 mpm.

        We had 16 CIC and 10 CCI riders for measurement. We lost data from 4 rides due to a watch that went kablooie (Gnep ).

        Comment


        • #5
          Right you are, Gnep. This is borderline cruel -- you click on the thread hoping for some answers and you're told you'll have to go to New Orleans, like it's the Amazing Race or something.

          Comment

          • Original Poster

            #6
            Originally posted by JER View Post
            Right you are, Gnep. This is borderline cruel -- you click on the thread hoping for some answers and you're told you'll have to go to New Orleans, like it's the Amazing Race or something.


            Hey, man, if I am wearing a suit and presenting to folks at 10am on a Saturday, I want an damn audience.

            Not to mention I am working the signals analysis at the moment, which is another way to remove the need to consider distance, rider, horse, etc. I will have the RMS signal done ASAP.


            Reed

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by RAyers View Post
              Give we take data at any time between 1-7 seconds, we do not need to account for overall course length. In other words, we collect up to 100 speed data points for each rider on course and then we can compare those, what I call "instantaneous speeds" against other riders. Thus we measure a TRUE average speed.
              Just for entertainment value -- what was the greatest change in speed between two consecutive data points (on the same rider)?

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by RAyers View Post
                Hey, man, if I am wearing a suit and presenting to folks at 10am on a Saturday, I want an damn audience.
                Um, a minor but important correction from someone who used to live in NO:

                10 am on a Saturday is bad enough but 10 am on a Saturday in New Orleans is a different animal entirely.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by RAyers View Post
                  Hey, man, if I am wearing a suit and presenting to folks at 10am on a Saturday, I want an damn audience.

                  Not to mention I am working the signals analysis at the moment, which is another way to remove the need to consider distance, rider, horse, etc. I will have the RMS signal done ASAP.


                  Reed
                  How many TLAs will you be using?! (Three Letter Acronyms)....!

                  For those of us who will be unable to go because of job and family responsibilities....will there be post-conf. report? And perhaps a youtube video of you in a suit?
                  --Becky in TX
                  Clinic Blogs and Rolex Blogs
                  She who throws dirt is losing ground.

                  Comment

                  • Original Poster

                    #10
                    Originally posted by JER View Post
                    Just for entertainment value -- what was the greatest change in speed between two consecutive data points (on the same rider)?

                    I am not sure about specific riders, the AVERAGE spread for all riders was 330 mpm. Almost EVERY horse was at 300 mpm over a fence, regardless. That corresponds to conservation of energy (e.g. the forward momentum must be transferred to lifting the horse and thus the forward speed must drop).

                    I think we may be able to build a "energy usage" model of XC and may be able to quantify a "good round" (high speed, low speed variation, low energy expenditure) versus a "bad round" (high speed, high speed variation, high energy expendature).

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      I'm a word geek, not a numbers geek, but even I am captivated by this information. Can't wait for the report from NOLA.

                      My wonderful barn owners/event organizers extraordinaire are going to the meeting, I will try to twist their arms so at least one of them will be there at 10 a.m.!!!

                      Comment

                      • Original Poster

                        #12
                        Originally posted by Kairoshorses View Post
                        How many TLAs will you be using?! (Three Letter Acronyms)....!

                        For those of us who will be unable to go because of job and family responsibilities....will there be post-conf. report? And perhaps a youtube video of you in a suit?
                        I promise a full "report." I was just astounded as I waded through the data and the trends just kept getting clearer and clearer. Now be mindful that this is only one competition and that the difference in speed was as little as 26 mpm but as great as 100 mpm in some cases.

                        The XC was on the exact same course as it was both FEI divisions.

                        So, everyone, your USEA fees are producing some thing that I hope makes a difference. Thank you for your help!

                        Gnep, me and John Staples all donated watches and time to this work. Thank you to Kevin B. and John Sheetz for thier efforts to get us funded! Also thank you Desirea Herrera on the software development!

                        Reed
                        Last edited by RAyers; Nov. 28, 2008, 03:43 PM.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          "... many of them had instantaneous speeds up to 950 mpm."

                          Oy vey ......

                          Comment

                          • Original Poster

                            #14
                            Originally posted by flutie1 View Post
                            "... many of them had instantaneous speeds up to 950 mpm."

                            Oy vey ......

                            Don't you mean Oy gevalt!

                            And, yes, the CIC division had the HIGHEST maximum speeds.

                            And yes, thank you flutie1 for supporting our early efforts!!!!!

                            Reed

                            Comment

                            • Original Poster

                              #15
                              And let's just say that the average instantaneous speed for the CCI* was almost 26 mpm slower (490mpm) than the instantaneous speed on the CIC* (517 mpm).

                              Comment


                              • #16
                                Originally posted by 3dazey View Post
                                I'm a word geek, not a numbers geek, but even I am captivated by this information. Can't wait for the report from NOLA.

                                My wonderful barn owners/event organizers extraordinaire are going to the meeting, I will try to twist their arms so at least one of them will be there at 10 a.m.!!!
                                I vote for J.

                                GOOD LUCK TOMORROW!!!!!!
                                ~ it no longer matters what level I do, as long as I am doing it..~ with many thanks, to Elizabeth Callahan

                                Comment


                                • #17
                                  Originally posted by RAyers View Post
                                  I think we may be able to build a "energy usage" model of XC and may be able to quantify a "good round" (high speed, low speed variation, low energy expenditure) versus a "bad round" (high speed, high speed variation, high energy expendature).
                                  I believe this would correspond to a 'good round' in motorsport.

                                  Comment


                                  • #18
                                    HaHa RFI, she's not the morning person!!!

                                    Comment


                                    • #19
                                      Holy Mod1, you are wearing a suit, I hope that fact alone will impress everybody, did you lease it ?
                                      That I have no use for them, does not mean, that I don't know them and don't know how to use them.
                                      Caveman extraordinair

                                      Comment


                                      • #20
                                        Originally posted by RAyers View Post
                                        . . . . Thank you to Kevin B. and John Sheetz for thier efforts to get us funded! . . .
                                        Reed
                                        Ok, I know this is a tiny & unimportant point, but my curiosity is aroused. Is John Sheetz part of the family that has the Sheetz chain of gas stations/convenience stores here in the east? I know that Sheetz family has horses & kids involved in pony club.

                                        Comment

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