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Please weigh in on value of this mare I am thinking of care leasing... am I nuts?

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  • Please weigh in on value of this mare I am thinking of care leasing... am I nuts?

    OK, owner used to raise "American Warmbloods" which I believe is just a registry for home bred draft crosses that fit a certain standard. Of 4 levels, she was in the 2nd from the bottom category as far as movement and the other things that they look at.

    So this is a TB/Percheron mare, 13 years old, trail ridden extensively up until a few years ago and has only gone out a few times a year in the last few years.
    She has had 2 foals successfully, although I have no plans to breed her.
    I have been riding her consistently for about 1 month and owner wants to care lease her to me, but wants me to put insurance on her. She is valuing her at $5000 and wants $7500 major medical/colic coverage. Which incidentally runs about $500 a year.

    Currently, she is starting to take some contact, can canter one and a half circles (about 1/2 a large dressage ring) before breaking to a trot- she's not balanced, but we are working on it.

    Now the good parts. She has a great mind and is not too mareish at all. She is great on hacks and can go out alone without much drama. She is an easy keeper.

    The woman only wants me to lease her for one year...I have the feeling that she wants me to put a year of free training on her and then she is going to sell her. She thinks that she could list her for $10, 000, and would get between $5000 and $6000.

    I think she is nuts. The woman is in her early 60's, she has 3 of these "warmblood" mares and she can't keep up with their care- physically, she is able to afford them financially.

    Anyway, am I crazy? I could get an OTTB for $500, or probably a number of other green but nice horses.

    Thoughts, comments?...oh and I would use her for low level eventing, she can jump a bit apparently
    Last edited by Cruiser12; May. 22, 2013, 07:59 PM. Reason: added info

  • #2
    I would just go get a TB for $500...
    She's not going to get $6000 for a horse that is only starting to take a bit of contact. There are much nicer horses with a whole lot more training for that price.

    Comment

    • Original Poster

      #3
      That's kind of what I thought!

      Comment


      • #4
        $5000 for a draft cross that can jump is not totally insane. Draft crosses tend to be easy to sell for a pretty good amount of money.

        Not always, but most of the time.
        Big Idea Eventing

        Comment


        • #5
          I paid $5K for a draft cross mare and sold her on for $12,500 after a couple of years. She's currently eventing training level with her new owner. That said, I bought her as a 5 year old and sold her at 8 -- lots of good competitive years left there.
          If you believe everything you read, better not read. -- Japanese Proverb

          Comment


          • #6
            I sold a draft cross mare for $5000 a few years back. She wasn't even that great an eventer! But she was rideable for an amature dressage/trail type so was easily saleable.

            That being said, I would personally get the $500 OTTB
            "My ideal horse is the horse that I fall in love with again every morning when I see his face hanging over the stable door, looking for breakfast. " - Jim Wofford

            Comment


            • #7
              TB x Perch is a very popular cross with foxhunters, especially men who are often times BIG and need heavy hunters. If the mare is bombproof, she could easily go to a third flight (non jumping rider) for good money, even at her age. There are (or were) at least three foxhunts in North Alabama that I know of. If you're considering it, you might ask the owner for a cut of a sale based on the value you've added to the horse.
              "I'm a lumberjack, and I'm okay."
              Thread killer Extraordinaire

              Comment

              • Original Poster

                #8
                Thank you all for weighing in. I guess I'm not looking at her as a fox hunter...so yes, she may be worth that much for that use, although her age is against her some I would think.
                Anyway, I guess my biggest issue is that she only wants to lease her to me for a year and wants me to pay insurance, about $500, and I just don't know if I want to spend $500 on her and lessons etc., just to have her yanked away from me and probably sold. Originally when she talked about a lease it sounded like a long term thing because the mare and the owner were older and not in use... YOu know, just getting her to a good home for her later years where she will be gently used and well cared for. I think I am going to pass

                Comment


                • #9
                  I don't think that paying $500 toward a year long care lease for a sane, sensible sound mare is such a bad idea. A lot depends on the horse.

                  Sure you can get an OTTB off the track and own it, but there's no guarantee that you can start doing much with it right away. I've restarted five OTTBS. Some transition pretty easily; others take a lot longer than I'd expected.

                  What do you want to do with the horse you ride? How soon do you want to progress to trail riding on your own, competing, etc. It sounds like the major obstacle to competing this mare would be to get her fit. To start eventing an OTTB you will need to retrain. Like I said, if you're lucky it's a few months, otherwise you are looking at next year.

                  They are both viable choices but depend on your goals.

                  Will she get $10k for this horse? Probably not. But if you are looking for a horse to ride for a year and then can re-evaluate, why not?
                  Last edited by Bogie; May. 23, 2013, 10:30 AM.
                  Equine Ink - My soapbox for equestrian writings & reviews.
                  EquestrianHow2 - Operating instructions for your horse.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Cruiser12 View Post
                    Thank you all for weighing in. I guess I'm not looking at her as a fox hunter...so yes, she may be worth that much for that use, although her age is against her some I would think.
                    Anyway, I guess my biggest issue is that she only wants to lease her to me for a year and wants me to pay insurance, about $500, and I just don't know if I want to spend $500 on her and lessons etc., just to have her yanked away from me and probably sold. Originally when she talked about a lease it sounded like a long term thing because the mare and the owner were older and not in use... YOu know, just getting her to a good home for her later years where she will be gently used and well cared for. I think I am going to pass
                    It is very normal to have to pay insurance for a leased horse. The owner may not be aware that you do have to prove the horse's value, however.

                    If you're unwilling to sink even $500 into this horse then it sounds like you don't like her that much.

                    Leases are typically done in short-term and that's part of your trade off-- for the flexibility of not paying a full purchase price and not owning the horse, you get use of a horse for a set period of time. That might mean that you put "training" on someone else's horse, but what you're paying for is the riding privileges.
                    Originally posted by PeanutButterPony
                    you can shackle your pony to a lawn chair at the show...so long as its in a conservative color.

                    Comment

                    • Original Poster

                      #11
                      Originally posted by soloudinhere View Post
                      It is very normal to have to pay insurance for a leased horse. The owner may not be aware that you do have to prove the horse's value, however.

                      If you're unwilling to sink even $500 into this horse then it sounds like you don't like her that much.

                      Leases are typically done in short-term and that's part of your trade off-- for the flexibility of not paying a full purchase price and not owning the horse, you get use of a horse for a set period of time. That might mean that you put "training" on someone else's horse, but what you're paying for is the riding privileges.
                      I TOTALLY agree with paying for riding privileges and I don't have so much of a problem with putting insurance on her. I don't know that she can prove her worth at $5000 though, but that remains to be seen as she just filled out the information and I have to get it back to the insurance company. I shouldn't have used the title I used, because in reality, it's not so much about her worth. She is a nice mare, not a great mover, but safe and sane and that is worth a lot. However, I am just getting the impression that the owner is wanting me to lease her for a year and then she is going to turn around and sell her, and well that ticks me off a little as that is not what she suggested in the beginning. I am no trainer, but I have brought a couple of OTTB along to do low level eventing, and I guess I feel like I'm being used.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        I would ask for a cut of the sale price too, since you are putting the training into her for free.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Cruiser12 View Post
                          However, I am just getting the impression that the owner is wanting me to lease her for a year and then she is going to turn around and sell her, and well that ticks me off a little as that is not what she suggested in the beginning. I am no trainer, but I have brought a couple of OTTB along to do low level eventing, and I guess I feel like I'm being used.
                          Yes, but you are getting the use of a horse that you don't have to buy that is sane and who is reported to have a nice jump. All you need to do is insure the horse, which I think is very reasonable.

                          There are very, very few free leases out there for horses that are already trained. Or if they are, those are older horse that need $$ maintenance.

                          Should you get a portion of the sale? it depends on your agreement with the owner. It's not a given. There's no guarantee that this horse will sell after the year or how the owner is going to feel about the situation. You need to think of this as a short-term gig.

                          My own horse is currently being rehabbed for a ligament injury (a four month process) and someone offered me a horse to ride and campaign (she wants the horse to foxhunt as that's a good market for her). This horse is for sale and I know that going into the agreement. She did offer me a commission if/when the horse sells but I didn't expect it. What I was going to get out of the deal was a nice horse to ride with the understanding that I'm going to tune her up and get her out for people to see.

                          I fully intend to insure the horse while she's in my care because I don't want to assume that level of risk.

                          Many insurance companies will allow you to insure up to $7500 without an exam although how the owner is going to establish value is up to her.
                          Equine Ink - My soapbox for equestrian writings & reviews.
                          EquestrianHow2 - Operating instructions for your horse.

                          Comment

                          • Original Poster

                            #14
                            Originally posted by Bogie View Post
                            Yes, There are very, very few free leases out there for horses that are already trained. Or if they are, those are older horse that need $$ maintenance.
                            She is an older horse, she is 13, and she's not "trained" persay, she couldn't canter a full circle for a few weeks, which is fine I understand, she's out of shape, hasn't been used much in the last couple years and is not really bred for dressage. I get that $500 isn't much for the use of a horse for a year, but when I am paying for everything else and the lessons and the training and the owner has commented on "how much more she is going to be worth at the end of the year" I just feel like I'm being used a little. I don't really have a problem with the insurance, but it's a closed 1 year lease, then I'm done. Why would I want to care for someone else's horse for a year, pay for all the vet expenses, feed, lessons, shows etc., just to have her taken away after a year. I do see both sides, this is just how I feel. But I do appreciate all of your thoughts, I really do. I guess it's kind of a mute point, the more I think about it, the more I am leaning toward not doing it.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Cruiser12 View Post
                              She is an older horse, she is 13, and she's not "trained" persay, she couldn't canter a full circle for a few weeks, which is fine I understand, she's out of shape, hasn't been used much in the last couple years and is not really bred for dressage. I get that $500 isn't much for the use of a horse for a year, but when I am paying for everything else and the lessons and the training and the owner has commented on "how much more she is going to be worth at the end of the year" I just feel like I'm being used a little. I don't really have a problem with the insurance, but it's a closed 1 year lease, then I'm done. Why would I want to care for someone else's horse for a year, pay for all the vet expenses, feed, lessons, shows etc., just to have her taken away after a year. I do see both sides, this is just how I feel. But I do appreciate all of your thoughts, I really do. I guess it's kind of a mute point, the more I think about it, the more I am leaning toward not doing it.
                              I'm glad that you've made a decision based on your comfort, but what you are describing is EXACTLY what a lease is. If you want to invest all that into your own horse, then you go out and you buy one and you assume all the risk that the horse could fall in a hole tomorrow and never be sound again.

                              That's the tradeoff. I sincerely doubt you're going to find a lease situation where someone just hands you a trained, sound horse to ride, for free, and doesn't at some point in the foreseeable future wish to have their horse back.
                              Originally posted by PeanutButterPony
                              you can shackle your pony to a lawn chair at the show...so long as its in a conservative color.

                              Comment


                              • #16
                                I don't think 13 is old. I'm talking about horses in their late teens or early 20s that probably need monthly adequan or hock injections to work up to their potential. A 13 year old who was a brood mare doesn't have a lot of wear and tear on their joints.

                                However, it's all about your comfort level.

                                BTW, I did a free lease on a horse when I was just out of college. I took a horse that could kind of walk/trot/canter under saddle but who needed a ton of work. I started him over fences and started him eventing. He went to the Area II championships the first year out in Novice and had two more very successful seasons under my care. My owner did help out with some of the costs but I paid for most things. I definitely DID increase the value of that horse but I had a really good time riding him and I was at a point in my life where I couldn't afford to buy a horse of his caliber. In the end she offered him to me at a reduced price but I couldn't have a horse where I needed to move for my career. I felt that we had a win-win relationship because I so much enjoyed the process of bringing him along.
                                Equine Ink - My soapbox for equestrian writings & reviews.
                                EquestrianHow2 - Operating instructions for your horse.

                                Comment


                                • #17
                                  I have a free OTTB.

                                  She's heading to Tufts next week, where I am dropping $4,000 on her to fix an issue, so that she can hopefully be a competitive sport horse.

                                  I WISH I had chosen to care lease +$500 a nice, sane, useable horse who I could send back to the owner if it came up broken.

                                  It sounds like your issue is less with the cost of the insurance and more with the fact that you are going to lose the horse after a year. That's fine. Find someone who will lease to you more or less "indefinitely." There are plenty out there.

                                  Comment

                                  • Original Poster

                                    #18
                                    Originally posted by GoForAGallop View Post

                                    I WISH I had chosen to care lease +$500 a nice, sane, useable horse who I could send back to the owner if it came up broken.

                                    .
                                    ... and there's part of the problem... I can't get loss of use unless I insure her for $10,000, which she can't be insured for because she's not worht it...so if she comes up "broken" the owner will expect me to pay her what she "think" she is worth, $5000- which she is not. I just spoke with the insurance company and they will not value a 13 year old non descript mare that hasn't done anything and has no competition records for $5000, never mind $10,000...so end of story I guess. The owner won't let me take her with no insurance. Problem solved

                                    Comment


                                    • #19
                                      It would be crazy to take on a lease without mortality and MM insurance. It really reduces the risks to both parties.

                                      Personally, I'd buy the young OTTB, because I love OTTBs and I think in the long run you will probably end up with the better horse, but I don't think the terms of the lease are crazy.

                                      Comment


                                      • #20
                                        Originally posted by Cruiser12 View Post
                                        ... and there's part of the problem... I can't get loss of use unless I insure her for $10,000, which she can't be insured for because she's not worht it...so if she comes up "broken" the owner will expect me to pay her what she "think" she is worth, $5000- which she is not. I just spoke with the insurance company and they will not value a 13 year old non descript mare that hasn't done anything and has no competition records for $5000, never mind $10,000...so end of story I guess. The owner won't let me take her with no insurance. Problem solved
                                        Anyone familiar with insurance products would tell you the following:
                                        1. Loss of use is almost never worthwhile coverage;
                                        2. you can't insure a horse that is not doing anything for loss of use;
                                        3. This is the case with basically all lease horses-- the owner (as owner of ANY horse we all assume this risk) that if something happens to the horse in a freak accident, they have an unusable horse. The typical clause is that if the injury is not caused by the action or negligence of the leaser that it's the owner's to deal with.

                                        I think the problem with this deal was the lack of a clear contract more than anything else.
                                        Originally posted by PeanutButterPony
                                        you can shackle your pony to a lawn chair at the show...so long as its in a conservative color.

                                        Comment

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