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Please weigh in on value of this mare I am thinking of care leasing... am I nuts?

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  • #21
    loss of use insurance? i don't think that is available to average lower cost horses.... the premium that you would pay would end up paying for the horse in a few short years plus the insurance company gets to decide what happens to the horse if a claim is filed - and that can mean euthing.

    OP - it looks like you have skewed expectations on what a lease is. so i suggest going out and buying a horse and taking all the risk yourself.

    however, if you want a known quantity that you can ride and enjoy now with hardly any risk to you - then proceed.

    otherwise...... there are plenty of 500 horses out there...... altho how many are sound/sane and immediately enjoyable is the question.


    if you are interested in the mare then why not talk to the owner and say : i will insure her for the 500 but i would also like to have a longer term lease - and it would be great if i can get a commissions of x % if she were to sell for over X in x time during or after my lease.

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    • #22
      Originally posted by Cruiser12 View Post
      ... and there's part of the problem... I can't get loss of use unless I insure her for $10,000, which she can't be insured for because she's not worht it...so if she comes up "broken" the owner will expect me to pay her what she "think" she is worth, $5000- which she is not. I just spoke with the insurance company and they will not value a 13 year old non descript mare that hasn't done anything and has no competition records for $5000, never mind $10,000...so end of story I guess. The owner won't let me take her with no insurance. Problem solved

      That's odd....I've NEVER had a problem getting normal mortality insurance for 5000 and major medical. She is sound registered horse. NO ONE get's loss of use. It isn't worth the cost. I've leased out several horses. I do not expect the the leasee to pay me for the horse if they get hurt as long as they were not grossly negligent. And I've taken back horses where the leasee actually DECREASED the value of my horse...and I had to fix the issues they caused (physical and training). That is the risk from the lessor perspective.


      For this type of horse, you can set the purchase price now so that in a year if you want to buy you buy her at that price (which you may decide is worth it then or not)...but otherwise you may or may NOT be doing this person a big favor. Perhaps you will increase the value of the horse...perhaps you wont. But in a lease situation...you ARE getting a benefit. THe question for you is that benefit worth it for you.
      ** Tact is the ability to tell someone to go to hell in such a way that they look forward to the trip. ~Winston Churchill? **

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      • Original Poster

        #23
        Originally posted by mbm View Post
        loss of use insurance? i don't think that is available to average lower cost horses.... the premium that you would pay would end up paying for the horse in a few short years plus the insurance company gets to decide what happens to the horse if a claim is filed - and that can mean euthing.

        OP - it looks like you have skewed expectations on what a lease is. so i suggest going out and buying a horse and taking all the risk yourself.
        .
        THE OWNER WANTS LOSS OF USE! Not me, I have leased before, and NEVER had issues like with this owner... she wants me to pay for everything for a 13 year old horse, who has no special breeding and ZERO training except to go on trail rides and hasn't had more than 6 rides in at least 2 years and the owner values her at $5000, only wants me to keep her for a year, and brags about how much more she will be worth in a year! BUT she won't offer me an option to buy at the price she is worth now because she thinks that she can sell her for more when I have put a shit load of free training and care into her!!! If she maims herself in my field, I'm screwed, she has said that if I don't give her back in a year at least as healthy and sound as she is now that I will have to pay for her AND I can't get loss of use insurance on a horse under $10,000 EVEN if i wanted it. I AM NOT THE ONE BEING UNREASONABLE!

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        • #24
          Then walk away. Don't get all worked up about it. Owners who lease animals have to accept that they may get an injury while in work. It happens.

          I wouldn't lease from her. She sounds like she might screw you in the end.

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          • #25
            Then you walk away from the lease. But having a lease agreement that is limited to one year and requires mortality and major medical insurance is not at all unusual.

            What would make ME potentially walk away is if I thought the owner was nuts. But I wouldn't get worked up about it....its her horse.

            Not agreeing to a purchase price is also not unreasonable. I have a couple of horses whose MARKET value is nothing....but I wouldn't sell them for 5000. I care about them and while I would let certain people lease them, it isn't worth it to me to sell them for several reasons. Especially if it is one of my mares who I intend to breed again. I have left one open this year..She is 13 and out of shape. I've started riding her again and would let the WS ride her...even compete her...but I wouldn't sell this mare for less than 20K and even then it would have to be a really outstanding home. But her market price....if I had really wanted to sell her, would be quite low right now...but will go up as we get her fit again but not likely get to 20K as she is fancy but not a packer.
            Last edited by bornfreenowexpensive; May. 23, 2013, 01:10 PM. Reason: typo
            ** Tact is the ability to tell someone to go to hell in such a way that they look forward to the trip. ~Winston Churchill? **

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            • #26
              I would walk away. Owner sounds a bit nuts, as well as unrealistic about the state of the horse market.

              That said, I tend to view a lease, with the investment in lessons for me and gaining more experience, as something for *me*, and if the horse gets better**, that is a side benefit.

              ** That said, my lease experiences were not ones where the horse got better; the one that might have been that was a really bad match -- I was way overhorsed -- and I let her go back to her owner after 2 months. The other was a lease of a BTDT packer sort of horse, an older fellow who wasn't going to get any "better" than he already was.
              You have to have experiences to gain experience.

              1998 Morgan mare Mythic Feronia "More Valley Girl Than Girl Scout!"

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              • #27
                At the end of the lease period, you could always buy her for yourself if she turns out to be a great horse. And if you really don't like her, or there is some issue that comes up, you can walk away at the end of the year. It sounds like a decent offer.

                Don't forget you will learn a lot in this year that you will be able to apply to other horses in the future, so you can either feel like she is using you to train her horse (she is) Or you can think of it as getting a horse to train for a year, thereby honing your own skills.

                If you just think she's over-valuing her horse, well, welcome to the horse world...

                Comment


                • #28
                  I have to admit I'm confused by some of the people on here.

                  In general around here, no one pays to lease a horse, beyond board/care, even a horse that is well-trained. Usually the owner is too busy, in school, doesn't want to sell but isn't competing, etc. So it's win-win for everyone.

                  In this case, if the OP is going to take what is essentially a low-value horse and make it increase in value, it would make sense for the owner to try to sweeten the pot a little. Especially considering what she'd likely have to pay to have a professional trainer do the same. Instead, she seems to think she's doing this gal a favor by letting the OP foot the bill for board, maintenance, and insurance while the OP also puts the sweat equity in.

                  OP, I agree that this is not a good deal for you, and that you could probably do better under the circumstances.

                  Comment

                  • Original Poster

                    #29
                    Originally posted by baxtersmom View Post
                    I have to admit I'm confused by some of the people on here.

                    In general around here, no one pays to lease a horse, beyond board/care, even a horse that is well-trained. Usually the owner is too busy, in school, doesn't want to sell but isn't competing, etc. So it's win-win for everyone.

                    In this case, if the OP is going to take what is essentially a low-value horse and make it increase in value, it would make sense for the owner to try to sweeten the pot a little. Especially considering what she'd likely have to pay to have a professional trainer do the same. Instead, she seems to think she's doing this gal a favor by letting the OP foot the bill for board, maintenance, and insurance while the OP also puts the sweat equity in.

                    OP, I agree that this is not a good deal for you, and that you could probably do better under the circumstances.
                    Thank you for understanding, and I am walking away. She won't offer to let me buy her at the end of the lease because she assumes that she will be worth a lot more and will sell her to someone else rather than me if she sells her. I cannot get an insurance company to value her at $5000, so I can't get insurance if I want to, never mind the crazy loss of use thing she wants.
                    Thanks all

                    Comment


                    • #30
                      Clearly this is not the right lease for the OP.
                      But just generally, insurance is necessary but either party could potentially pay for it.

                      When I took on a free lease I paid insurance (mortality, MM, and actually loss of use). I knew the loss of use was pointless, but the owner (cautious, not nuts) wanted it and it was not that much $ for use of an awesome horse.

                      When I leased out my horse I paid the insurance (mortality, MM) just to make sure it was kept current and I was the beneficiary.


                      These days it can be harder to get MM for lower-valued horses (not impossible, but it tends to be fairly restricted). And I agree loss of use is pointless. But I can't imagine what sane owner would let their horse go on lease without any insurance.

                      Comment


                      • #31
                        OP--I would walk as well. I do understand. My post was more that there are other lease situations were those are not unreasonable requests.

                        And on this BB...there can be two sides to a story and we are only hearing one.

                        For example...my 13 year old broodmare is techically a low value mare if I tried to sell her today. BUT she did event through prelim, and jump 4'+ courses--with me. Plus is a lovely mover and has produced extremely nice foals (inspection champion and reserve champions). But she hasn't done much lately. But no way no how would I lease her out to a stranger. She is valuable to ME but isn't very valuable to the market. I could see someone posting something like your post about her......and making it sound like I was crazy to not let this person do me the favor of leasing my horse..and "increasing" her value (or buy her at a low value).


                        Very well may not be your situation (and if you are having these feelings--trust it and run away from this)...but the lease situation often IME, benefits the leasee FAR more than the lessor.
                        Last edited by bornfreenowexpensive; May. 23, 2013, 09:35 PM.
                        ** Tact is the ability to tell someone to go to hell in such a way that they look forward to the trip. ~Winston Churchill? **

                        Comment


                        • #32
                          Originally posted by Cruiser12 View Post
                          ... and there's part of the problem... I can't get loss of use unless I insure her for $10,000, which she can't be insured for because she's not worht it...so if she comes up "broken" the owner will expect me to pay her what she "think" she is worth, $5000- which she is not. I just spoke with the insurance company and they will not value a 13 year old non descript mare that hasn't done anything and has no competition records for $5000, never mind $10,000...so end of story I guess. The owner won't let me take her with no insurance. Problem solved
                          Okay -- now I understand. Nope, there's no way you can insure a horse that's doing nothing for $10K and there's no way to get loss of use insurance. I can see getting M/M for $5K but not the loss of use (even if you could get her appraised for that much).
                          Equine Ink - My soapbox for equestrian writings & reviews.
                          EquestrianHow2 - Operating instructions for your horse.

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                          • #33
                            Frankly, if you are having that many issues before the lease even started, I would look for another horse. It's not going to get any better...
                            "When life gives you scurvy, make lemonade."

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                            • #34
                              Per your title - nope she's nuts. If it's this odd now it will get very messy to lease . Smart to walk. Find more fun ride elsewhere.

                              Comment


                              • #35
                                Originally posted by bornfreenowexpensive View Post

                                For example... my 13 year old broodmare is techically a low value mare if I tried to sell her today. BUT she did event through prelim, and jump 4'+ courses--with me. Plus is a lovely mover and has produced extremely nice foals (inspection champion and reserve champions). hasn't done much lately. But no way no how would I lease her out to a stranger. She is valuable to ME but isn't very valuable to the market. I could see someone posting something like your post about her......and making it sound like I was crazy to not let this person do me the favor of leasing my horse..and "increasing" her value (or buy her at a low value).
                                But your mare is lovely & accomplished no one would complain about "free"-leasing her for a year, even starting at pasture puff status!

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