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Speaking of running a horse at two UL competitions back to back...

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  • Originally posted by vineyridge View Post
    The Doctor Feelgood in question was recently censured by the Florida Vet Board. He's known as a magician with a needle and supposedly uses some of the more exotic non-testable drugs. Some of those drugs can be called the chemical equivalent of nerving.
    Ah, got it.
    ~Veronica
    "The Son Dee Times" "Sustained" "Somerset" "Franklin Square"
    http://photobucket.com/albums/y192/vxf111/

    Comment


    • Originally posted by kerilli View Post
      But whatever they might do would NOT be allowed... at an FEI event, absolutely nothing can be given to a horse without the officiating vets' knowledge and approval. There was a rather famous case of this some years ago, a GB team horse, I don't want to rake up old news etc but the crux of the matter was that it didn't matter what had/n't been given to the horse, it was the pure fact that ANYTHING had been given to the horse without the officiating vets' knowledge... this includes injecting with something as innocuous as saline, is my understanding. ONLY the officiating vets are allowed to inject etc.

      As for it testing... hmm. Someone far more worldly than me told me that the drugs used are often a step or three ahead of the drugs being tested for at any given time...
      I guess my point was more along the lines that if it's illegal to give anything, why sneak the vet in? Can't the groom/rider be the one dosing.

      I thought FEI tested for every.darn.thing. In trace levels. But I suppose you're right, someone who wants to cheap just has to find the drug that's not in the teasting protocol yet...
      ~Veronica
      "The Son Dee Times" "Sustained" "Somerset" "Franklin Square"
      http://photobucket.com/albums/y192/vxf111/

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Hilary View Post
        NOt to hijack into a LF thread, but the long format HAS to have been harder - I believe your vet. Look only at the number of miles galloped, steps taken, at the event itself - it was harder. Today's courses may require very fit horses, but removing 20 miles, 5 of them at racing speed, made it easier. That said, I was hoping Veronica was going to get a bit of vacation after this month of hard work. But if horses could do a LF, maybe they are also tough enough to take those extra 20 miles and do more SF events.


        So reducing the COMPETITION miles but leaving the TRAINING miles is better?! It's kinda like saying run the Kentucky Derby over 1/2mile will prevent breakdowns.

        I absolutely disagree. The old long format was brutal but then so were the training techniques. Modern training methods can save a horse and you can still have less damage. So, the vet may not be seeing an effect of the format but a change in training. This is prevalent in the racing industry as bone physiology, track surfaces and biomechanics are further characterized and understood.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by bornfreenowexpensive View Post
          His horse didn't campaign as much. Neither did a lot of the other countries who named their teams significantly in advance.


          Honestly...I don't think there is a horseperson in the world that would think running this horse at these two events with this amount of travel is a good thing for the benefit of the horse. It is a high risk for sure. Without the qualification pressure, I doubt highly this would have been done by this horse's connections. I'm sure they weighed the risks...and know their horse and decided the risk was worth it and thought the horse would be fine. Still...obviously not a risk many would take.

          This horse's team I'm sure will do all the things that they can to help the mare recover and stay happy and healthy. They have the backing and technology to do this better than most in the world. But that doesn't change the risk that is being taking in the name of qualifications.....and in the support of a person's career (more than the horse's). To me it is unfortunate and takes away from what used to set eventers apart....the horsemanship. But there have always been bad horsemanship decisions made...some work out, and others do/did not. I just hope that those watching, who don't have all the facts (or the skills to help this horse recover) don't think that this is just fine to do. The ones who don't know enough to evaluate the risks in an educated fully informed manner (or know how to help an athlete recover) but just think running horses in back to back events is just fine....it is just a short format event.

          For me...this isn't some earth shattering change in eventing. These sort of decisions have been done all along...chasing points or qualifications. We just know about it more now with the internet. Doesn't mean I like it. I hope this mare has a great run at Bromont and then gets a well deserved vacation....as I'm pretty sure that would be the plan by her connections.
          Agree point chasing and/or qualification chasing is in every horse discipline to my knowledge. What did set eventing apart for many years, IMO, is the attitude toward the long format. The good horsemen knew the stress and pounding required to do LF's and scheduled their season around the destination events and the downtime after the LF event.
          With the SF plus almost year round competitions, eventing is rushing down the yellow brick road so many other disciplines have traveled. All the while ignoring the changes made by some, most notably HJ, who are returning to their roots. Just my opinion.
          "Never do anything that you have to explain twice to the paramedics."
          Courtesy my cousin Tim

          Comment


          • Originally posted by kerilli View Post
            I've paid this subject quite a lot of attention, having done most of my 3-days over old Long Format courses (1* to 3*).
            I think it was Mark Todd who said that the horses feel just as tired after the XC on the short format, BUT that they recover far better overnight. Which makes sense, because the intensity is slightly higher (more jumps per distance on the xc) but the overall endurance is much less.
            Personally, I don't miss the SC at all. On a less-than-TB horse you really had to have your pedal to the metal all the way.
            I think so many more horses looking so fresh for the SJ nowadays is testament to the difference in the sport. If the SJ course at Badminton this year had been set 15+ years ago there would have been utter carnage imho.

            re: MERs, qualifications etc, having watched the second trot up at Badminton this year, I do wonder how many horses were presented (and re-presented) which previously might not have been, if some of the riders weren't desperate for MERs.
            RE: Badminton SJ- Different sport today. 15 years ago, SJ was testing that the rider properly conditioned their horse and rode XC well while keeping something in reserve. Today the SJ is just one more test and not really intended to relate to the dressage or XC. Plus as more and more competitions run SJ before XC the need to ride XC wisely in order for your horse to pass a final inspection and jump SJ clean will fade away. IMO it won't long before the CCI is just an overblown CT with high level dressage plus 4.5 to 5' SJ. Better horse welfare and great for TV. . .
            "Never do anything that you have to explain twice to the paramedics."
            Courtesy my cousin Tim

            Comment


            • How does one find out which Florida Veterinarians have been censured?
              Beth Davidson
              Black Dog Farm Connemaras & Sport Horses
              http://blackdogconnemara.com
              visit my blog: http://ponyeventer.blogspot.com

              Comment


              • Why is FEI insisting that the cross country be after show jumping? I agree, it changes the sport. I don't mind giving organizers the option but it seems pointless to force the format to be sj first.

                Mmm. Let me rephrase.
                "What is FEI's stated reason for insisting that XC be after SJ in a CIC?"
                If you are allergic to a thing, it is best not to put that thing in your mouth, particularly if the thing is cats. - Lemony Snicket

                Comment


                • Originally posted by fooler View Post
                  Agree point chasing and/or qualification chasing is in every horse discipline to my knowledge. What did set eventing apart for many years, IMO, is the attitude toward the long format. The good horsemen knew the stress and pounding required to do LF's and scheduled their season around the destination events and the downtime after the LF event.
                  With the SF plus almost year round competitions, eventing is rushing down the yellow brick road so many other disciplines have traveled. All the while ignoring the changes made by some, most notably HJ, who are returning to their roots. Just my opinion.
                  Good point!

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by vineyridge View Post
                    The Doctor Feelgood in question was recently censured by the Florida Vet Board. He's known as a magician with a needle and supposedly uses some of the more exotic non-testable drugs. Some of those drugs can be called the chemical equivalent of nerving.
                    That might get a horse through a performance at one event. But in the long run, in eventing in particular, isn't that heading for soundness disaster? In eventing, I would think sooner rather than later. Is that a correct perspective? Thankfully, I don't manage ul horses, so I don't know that much.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by kerilli View Post
                      But whatever they might do would NOT be allowed... at an FEI event, absolutely nothing can be given to a horse without the officiating vets' knowledge and approval. There was a rather famous case of this some years ago, a GB team horse, I don't want to rake up old news etc but the crux of the matter was that it didn't matter what had/n't been given to the horse, it was the pure fact that ANYTHING had been given to the horse without the officiating vets' knowledge... this includes injecting with something as innocuous as saline, is my understanding. ONLY the officiating vets are allowed to inject etc.

                      As for it testing... hmm. Someone far more worldly than me told me that the drugs used are often a step or three ahead of the drugs being tested for at any given time...

                      Yeah, and look what happened to the whole team GB. We lost our qualification for the Olympics, the rider was effectively black balled, the team vet, and most of the management was ousted. Yes, the officiating vets are to do the injecting but that is not always the case. It is very easy to give the horse a jab without anyone knowing. That is not to say that it will not be picked up in the testing (and I know a few that will not). In this instance, the rider was also a qualified vet and she and Andy played the blame game. It was all very ugly and damaging for the sport. If the rumours are, indeed, true regarding ML, her actions could potentially do as much damage.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by pcwertb View Post
                        How does one find out which Florida Veterinarians have been censured?
                        Here: Florida Department of Business and Professional Regulation

                        Comment


                        • I hate *hate* HATE the fact that our wonderful sport is being infiltrated by crooked creeps.

                          Sorry, just couldn't help myself.

                          Anna Pollyanna

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by ahbaumgardner View Post
                            I hate *hate* HATE the fact that our wonderful sport is being infiltrated by crooked creeps.

                            Sorry, just couldn't help myself.

                            Anna Pollyanna

                            Less so now...trust me.

                            Comment


                            • I have looked on the site and downloaded a comma delineated file, but it doesn't tell me anything. Is there a specific area to look on the website where they have hidden the information?
                              Beth Davidson
                              Black Dog Farm Connemaras & Sport Horses
                              http://blackdogconnemara.com
                              visit my blog: http://ponyeventer.blogspot.com

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by vxf111 View Post
                                I guess my point was more along the lines that if it's illegal to give anything, why sneak the vet in? Can't the groom/rider be the one dosing.
                                My guess is that it might need to be a very pinpoint-accurately given jab...

                                snoopy, yes, absolutely. Just awful all round, and a total ****storm that our sport does NOT need again.

                                Comment


                                • Originally posted by ahbaumgardner View Post
                                  I hate *hate* HATE the fact that our wonderful sport is being infiltrated by crooked creeps.

                                  Sorry, just couldn't help myself.

                                  Anna Pollyanna
                                  I believe they have always been there but in very small numbers and only for a short period of time. The LF and virtually no prize money tended to starve them out. Plus most of the folks I knew stayed away from that sort of "competitor".

                                  Prize money makes people do the craziest things. Just go to a local horse show that has money prizes, watch and listen. Learned this years ago at a local show, barrel racing class. Brand new electrical timers were set up and some 8-10 people were standing there with their hand held watches complaining that the electrical timers were wrong. . .
                                  "Never do anything that you have to explain twice to the paramedics."
                                  Courtesy my cousin Tim

                                  Comment


                                  • Originally posted by vxf111 View Post
                                    I guess my point was more along the lines that if it's illegal to give anything, why sneak the vet in? Can't the groom/rider be the one dosing.
                                    Yes it can. It does happen that way, from what I've been told.

                                    This isn't just limited to eventing or equestrian disciplines but includes racing as well. There are a lot of laypeople out there who are willing to do a lot with a needle -- and aren't afraid to risk compromising a joint capsule.

                                    Comment


                                    • Originally posted by fooler View Post
                                      I believe they have always been there but in very small numbers and only for a short period of time. The LF and virtually no prize money tended to starve them out. Plus most of the folks I knew stayed away from that sort of "competitor".

                                      Prize money makes people do the craziest things. Just go to a local horse show that has money prizes, watch and listen. Learned this years ago at a local show, barrel racing class. Brand new electrical timers were set up and some 8-10 people were standing there with their hand held watches complaining that the electrical timers were wrong. . .
                                      You're right and here's the dilemma: our pros are not well off financially. They need to make a living and most eeeek by and most end up finding another way to make a living. It's sad. What can we do to support them? I love the way some of the pros are actively putting together large syndicates but I wish we could have more prize $$ and ways that they could feed themselves. It has been and maybe will. E a sport for the wealthy.

                                      Comment


                                      • As I understand it, the case against the Doctor Feelgood is not final yet, so might not be public. From what I was told, he was recently brought up on charges, agreed to a form of plea bargain that included quite a long time for "probation", then decided to appeal his own plea bargain. He's the same vet in Florida who was found liable for the death of a show jumper.

                                        As to sneaking the vet in, there are some drugs that will simply eat the joint away if not given correctly. There are also (probably) some vets who do not want to simply dispense the type of drugs they are using to outsiders. After all, those outsiders might just snitch.

                                        Originally posted by pcwertb View Post
                                        I have looked on the site and downloaded a comma delineated file, but it doesn't tell me anything. Is there a specific area to look on the website where they have hidden the information?
                                        "I'm a lumberjack, and I'm okay."
                                        Thread killer Extraordinaire

                                        Comment


                                        • Originally posted by ahbaumgardner View Post
                                          You're right and here's the dilemma: our pros are not well off financially. They need to make a living and most eeeek by and most end up finding another way to make a living. It's sad. What can we do to support them? I love the way some of the pros are actively putting together large syndicates but I wish we could have more prize $$ and ways that they could feed themselves. It has been and maybe will. E a sport for the wealthy.
                                          I don't know. I think the lack of prize money and the physical demands made of the horse have been the two major things that have stood in the way of eventing becoming like the US hunter/jumper industry. More prize money certainly hasn't made big name hunter/jumper trainers pay more attention to horse welfare. If anything, it's turned the horse into a prize money/ribbon winning commodity. The more prize money, the more the horses are worth, the more the horses are worth, the harder it is for someone with talent but less financial backing to acquire and keep a good one.
                                          Sometimes the horses were better off when it was possible to do this sport less than full time and the riders weren't making a living off the backs of the horses they compete and sell.

                                          Looking at the racing industry, where there is the most money to be made off of horses, should tell you that more money is not the answer.

                                          Comment

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