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Speaking of running a horse at two UL competitions back to back...

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  • Originally posted by ahbaumgardner View Post
    I agree about the trend an it is following the end of the classic three day. Our competitions are very different now and not nearly as taxing on the horses.
    Having been at Rolex the year that both the short and long formats were ran, I would argue this statement. The short format horses were spent (if they finished) when they came off cross country, much worse off than the long format horses. Yes, I think we have come up with different ways of prepping the horses for short formats now, but I think it is still more taxing than a long format course for whatever reason.

    Let's not forget KOC is in bed with MLM and MLM has her special vet friend that can make any horse feel great.
    Rhode Islands are red;
    North Hollands are blue.
    Sorry my thoroughbreds
    Stomped on your roo. Originally Posted by pAin't_Misbehavin' :

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Glenbaer View Post
      I have been at Chatt this week apprenticing with Hugh. The courses are absolutely lovely, great designs and questions, but are not easy. I would want only a fit, focused, totally "on" horse, and nothing less.

      To add an interesting point- I was not aware of this, but maybe others are- courses can now be identical for national and FEI levels. In other words, Prelim/* Int/** and Adv/*** can be exact same track, questions, fences. In theory, you could end up "moving up" a level on an FEI track, or find yourself essentially running a starred track every weekend. Food for thought.
      This happened at Chatt Hills this weekend. Prelim and up ran the same courses as the respective FEI level. I was running my second Intermediate, and there were definitely some questions on our course that were unfair for the level. Most newbies at the level, or those attempting for the first time, didn't get through half the course. Quite a number of them in both the Int and 2* didn't make it past the combination at 4! I felt that my horse and I were totally prepared for the level, but boy were our eyes opened! Having run 10 Preliminaries, a CIC*, and after having won our first Intermediate, I was surprised at some of the questions that were asked. We were given NO options, which I felt set us up unfairly; why not allow us to build our confidence and our horse's at the level? Allow us to make a decision of accruing some extra time, or tackling a more difficult but direct route?
      Fade to Grey Farm
      Eventing, Foxhunting & Connemaras
      *NEW* website:www.fadetogreyfarm.com

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      • Originally posted by Debbie View Post
        According to the EN write up, the mare is going to the CCI*** Bromont in 3 weeks...
        At lease EN wrote a hard hitting journalistic piece taking the riders/owners to task on the matter...

        Comment


        • Originally posted by plainbay22 View Post
          And yet the Olympic gold medal horse placed 2nd at Badminton ahead of multiple other 2012 Olympic horse/rider combos.
          Yet that was not a US horse was it. I was commenting on how US horses were run before the Olympic games and the long term results.
          A person is smart. People are dumb, panicky dangerous animals and you know it.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by FitToBeTied View Post
            Yet that was not a US horse was it. I was commenting on how US horses were run before the Olympic games and the long term results.
            Does it matter where the horse is from? Why?

            Comment


            • Originally posted by RacetrackReject View Post
              Having been at Rolex the year that both the short and long formats were ran, I would argue this statement. The short format horses were spent (if they finished) when they came off cross country, much worse off than the long format horses. Yes, I think we have come up with different ways of prepping the horses for short formats now, but I think it is still more taxing than a long format course for whatever reason.

              Let's not forget KOC is in bed with MLM and MLM has her special vet friend that can make any horse feel great.
              ^^^ wow. That's pretty uncalled for. And it definitely discounts whatever else you had to say.....

              Comment


              • Originally posted by fooler View Post
                And yet the Olympic gold medal horse placed 2nd at Badminton ahead of multiple other 2012 Olympic horse/rider combos.
                Eight of the top ten horses at from the Olympics were at Badminton. (The exceptions were Wega and Mr Medicott.) Five of those horses finished in the top 10 at Badminton.

                Somewhere, they're doing it right.

                Comment


                • You, my friend, have a dirty mind.

                  Originally posted by ahbaumgardner View Post
                  ^^^ wow. That's pretty uncalled for. And it definitely discounts whatever else you had to say.....
                  "I'm a lumberjack, and I'm okay."
                  Thread killer Extraordinaire

                  Comment


                  • Hey, ahbaumgardner, as you know, I started running about 18 months ago, and have been capable of running the half marathon distance for over a year now. My goal is to run 12 halfs this year; although I was injured for the first three months of the year, I'm a bit behind.

                    That said, becoming an athlete has really opened my eyes as to what we ask of our horses. As someone who takes their training pretty seriously, I pool run to save my aging joints, I stretch because I have IT band issues and I think carefully about how I am fueling my body in preparation for long runs.

                    With all of that, I can't run half marathons on back to back weekends. I CAN do a half, then 10k the following weekend. And if I were marathon fit, I could (and would have to!) run half distances (and more) back to back weekends; but that's a pretty serious level of fitness for a human to have.

                    I think if you have a horse that is as fit as a horse needs to be for upper level work, there has got to be a point where back to back just wear them the heck out? I can tell you for a fact, as someone who trains myself, that while I CAN keep running, it's not always in my best interests to keep on keeping on.

                    Rest is pretty critical to recovery; and recovery is pretty critical to preventing injury.

                    I have no idea if Veronica is being 'properly managed,' but as a middle distance runner, I feel sorry for any horse that has to run back to back upper level events. It's got to be exhausting.
                    Chronicles of the $700 Pony
                    The Further Adventures of the $700 Pony
                    www.blithetraveler.com <-- My Blog

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by FitToBeTied View Post
                      Yet that was not a US horse was it. I was commenting on how US horses were run before the Olympic games and the long term results.
                      Actually I am agreeing with you in part. Non-US 2012 Olympic horses competed well at Badminton while most/all of the US Olympic horses have been "rested".

                      Agree with JER, other countries and/riders seem to have better long term programs than the US. As I have stated before, we should look at their programs to learn what may work for us.
                      "Never do anything that you have to explain twice to the paramedics."
                      Courtesy my cousin Tim

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by ahbaumgardner View Post
                        Does it matter where the horse is from? Why?
                        His horse didn't campaign as much. Neither did a lot of the other countries who named their teams significantly in advance.


                        Honestly...I don't think there is a horseperson in the world that would think running this horse at these two events with this amount of travel is a good thing for the benefit of the horse. It is a high risk for sure. Without the qualification pressure, I doubt highly this would have been done by this horse's connections. I'm sure they weighed the risks...and know their horse and decided the risk was worth it and thought the horse would be fine. Still...obviously not a risk many would take.

                        This horse's team I'm sure will do all the things that they can to help the mare recover and stay happy and healthy. They have the backing and technology to do this better than most in the world. But that doesn't change the risk that is being taking in the name of qualifications.....and in the support of a person's career (more than the horse's). To me it is unfortunate and takes away from what used to set eventers apart....the horsemanship. But there have always been bad horsemanship decisions made...some work out, and others do/did not. I just hope that those watching, who don't have all the facts (or the skills to help this horse recover) don't think that this is just fine to do. The ones who don't know enough to evaluate the risks in an educated fully informed manner (or know how to help an athlete recover) but just think running horses in back to back events is just fine....it is just a short format event.

                        For me...this isn't some earth shattering change in eventing. These sort of decisions have been done all along...chasing points or qualifications. We just know about it more now with the internet. Doesn't mean I like it. I hope this mare has a great run at Bromont and then gets a well deserved vacation....as I'm pretty sure that would be the plan by her connections.
                        Last edited by bornfreenowexpensive; May. 20, 2013, 12:11 PM.
                        ** Tact is the ability to tell someone to go to hell in such a way that they look forward to the trip. ~Winston Churchill? **

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by ahbaumgardner View Post
                          ^^^ wow. That's pretty uncalled for. And it definitely discounts whatever else you had to say.....
                          It's a fact that FEI stewards have had to watch out for MLM's vet trying to get in the barns at a major event (Rolex). I believe one of the stewards even posted about it, and it has been discussed here quite a few times.
                          Rhode Islands are red;
                          North Hollands are blue.
                          Sorry my thoroughbreds
                          Stomped on your roo. Originally Posted by pAin't_Misbehavin' :

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by RacetrackReject View Post
                            It's a fact that FEI stewards have had to watch out for MLM's vet trying to get in the barns at a major event (Rolex). I believe one of the stewards even posted about it, and it has been discussed here quite a few times.
                            Also true at Bromont last year, IIRC.
                            "I'm a lumberjack, and I'm okay."
                            Thread killer Extraordinaire

                            Comment


                            • Rest is pretty critical to recovery; and recovery is pretty critical to preventing injury.
                              This. One thousand times this.
                              Amanda

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by skydy View Post
                                Just a stab in the dark, but my guess is that they are "tinkering" with eventing for PR/safety reasons. There are few lethal (in competition) incidents for horse or rider in FEI dressage or showjumping, and the pressure is on to reduce the risk of fatalities in eventing.
                                Running the horses more often seems likely to increase the possibility of accidents and serious injury.

                                It strikes me that in nearly every recent interview with an upper level rider, they've mentioned having to run more often because of the FEI rule. I don't think it's isolated to a particular program and I don't think it's good for the sport.
                                If you are allergic to a thing, it is best not to put that thing in your mouth, particularly if the thing is cats. - Lemony Snicket

                                Comment


                                • Originally posted by RacetrackReject View Post
                                  Having been at Rolex the year that both the short and long formats were ran, I would argue this statement. The short format horses were spent (if they finished) when they came off cross country, much worse off than the long format horses. Yes, I think we have come up with different ways of prepping the horses for short formats now, but I think it is still more taxing than a long format course for whatever reason.
                                  I've paid this subject quite a lot of attention, having done most of my 3-days over old Long Format courses (1* to 3*).
                                  I think it was Mark Todd who said that the horses feel just as tired after the XC on the short format, BUT that they recover far better overnight. Which makes sense, because the intensity is slightly higher (more jumps per distance on the xc) but the overall endurance is much less.
                                  Personally, I don't miss the SC at all. On a less-than-TB horse you really had to have your pedal to the metal all the way.
                                  I think so many more horses looking so fresh for the SJ nowadays is testament to the difference in the sport. If the SJ course at Badminton this year had been set 15+ years ago there would have been utter carnage imho.

                                  re: MERs, qualifications etc, having watched the second trot up at Badminton this year, I do wonder how many horses were presented (and re-presented) which previously might not have been, if some of the riders weren't desperate for MERs.

                                  Comment


                                  • I am not arguing that running back to back events is a GOOD thing. I just don't know if it is catastrophic. Just for the record. I don't have access to the research on recovery etc just like those who argue that the short format is more taxing than the long format don't either. I'm sure others do have those data, on their own horses.

                                    And I'm no fan of MLM but that doesn't impact my opinion of LK. Not sure what her vets could do if they did get into the barns at Rolex.... I doubt they could perform a last minute nerving,

                                    I certainly don't feel sorry for Veronica. I feel sorry for the horses on vans to Mexico for slaughter. Veronica is munching her hay, getting curried, and probably just fine. It's all a matter of perspective.

                                    Comment


                                    • Originally posted by vineyridge View Post
                                      Also true at Bromont last year, IIRC.
                                      I'm interested to read about this (vets sneaking into events when not allowed) not just about MLM but in general if there are articles about it. I find that pretty shocking. Whatever they would do would either be allowed (and the rider/groom could do it themselves) or would test... so I am trying to figure out what precisely the vet would be sneaking in to do. I'm not trying to be obtuse, but what's the specific suspicion? What is it suspected is being done?
                                      ~Veronica
                                      "The Son Dee Times" "Sustained" "Somerset" "Franklin Square"
                                      http://photobucket.com/albums/y192/vxf111/

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                                      • The Doctor Feelgood in question was recently censured by the Florida Vet Board. He's known as a magician with a needle and supposedly uses some of the more exotic non-testable drugs. Some of those drugs can be called the chemical equivalent of nerving.
                                        "I'm a lumberjack, and I'm okay."
                                        Thread killer Extraordinaire

                                        Comment


                                        • Originally posted by vxf111 View Post
                                          I'm interested to read about this (vets sneaking into events when not allowed) not just about MLM but in general if there are articles about it. I find that pretty shocking. Whatever they would do would either be allowed (and the rider/groom could do it themselves) or would test... so I am trying to figure out what precisely the vet would be sneaking in to do. I'm not trying to be obtuse, but what's the specific suspicion? What is it suspected is being done?
                                          But whatever they might do would NOT be allowed... at an FEI event, absolutely nothing can be given to a horse without the officiating vets' knowledge and approval. There was a rather famous case of this some years ago, a GB team horse, I don't want to rake up old news etc but the crux of the matter was that it didn't matter what had/n't been given to the horse, it was the pure fact that ANYTHING had been given to the horse without the officiating vets' knowledge... this includes injecting with something as innocuous as saline, is my understanding. ONLY the officiating vets are allowed to inject etc.

                                          As for it testing... hmm. Someone far more worldly than me told me that the drugs used are often a step or three ahead of the drugs being tested for at any given time...

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