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Speaking of running a horse at two UL competitions back to back...

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  • #61
    Originally posted by ahbaumgardner View Post
    Am I the only one who suspects that the trainers/riders/vets may know more than we know about the horses they are running?
    What can any of the above 'know' that would make this okay?

    Comment


    • #62
      Originally posted by JER View Post
      This is a mare that was E'd in her only attempt at CCI**** at Rolex 2012. She also has letter results for the Fork CIC*** 2012 and also for Plantation the previous year. That was with KOC.

      Why should Rolex -- or any CCI**** qualification -- be the current goal with this mare? Why not get consistent and good at CCI***? Why not aim for a respectable result at a top-notch international CCI***?
      Not to mention that the mare also has that "fall with serious injury" box checked on her resume. Okay, s#%t happens, but I'd be inclined to be extra careful with the fitness--both mental and physical--of a horse that had been through that kind of thing. But what do I know ...
      "One person's cowboy is another person's blooming idiot" -- katarine

      Spay and neuter. Please.

      Comment


      • #63
        Originally posted by flutie1 View Post
        Ha. Horsemanship? Good luck with that!
        So sad.. Becoming a rare lost art!

        Comment


        • #64
          Well.... now that Lauren/Veronica won, what next?
          You have to have experiences to gain experience.

          1998 Morgan mare Mythic Feronia "More Valley Girl Than Girl Scout!"

          Comment


          • #65
            I'm playing devil's advocate here. It seems like people are saying that Veronica is "being run into the ground." If this were the case, her performance would show that. No way could an unsound, in pain, and overly tired horse win a 3* and come out sound and ready to go on to the next event. Our vet advances are huge compared to 10-15 years ago. And the jumps, footing, and events are far more forgiving. So.... Are we really the experts on what this horse is going through? Do we know as much as the trainers, vets, and rider?

            <ducking> :-D

            Comment


            • #66
              Btw, I'm a huge fan of this mare. I LOVE her and from what I've seen, she is absolutely a 4* talent. Her E at Rolex last year was a RF where the mare kept jumping a very technical element even with Karen totally unseated. That E, in part, showed me that Veronica has what it takes.

              Comment


              • #67
                Originally posted by JER View Post
                What can any of the above 'know' that would make this okay?
                That the horse is 100% before, during, and after. Both physically Nd mentally.

                Comment


                • #68
                  But for how long? Should she really go to a long format in 3 weeks?
                  Beth Davidson
                  Black Dog Farm Connemaras & Sport Horses
                  http://blackdogconnemara.com
                  visit my blog: http://ponyeventer.blogspot.com

                  Comment


                  • #69
                    Originally posted by pcwertb View Post
                    But for how long? Should she really go to a long format in 3 weeks?
                    Depends on her vet stats, how she is going, etc. Long format? You mean a CCI, I assume..... I'm sure she is being fully examined by a fully competent team of vets, with the input of the rider and trainers. I doubt anyone wants to compromise her potential to win Rolex.

                    Comment


                    • #70
                      Originally posted by Newby View Post
                      Sad reality, however supporters and owners will still line up to offer horses to those who make these kinds of decisions. All the while overlooking very talented riders who truly do put the welfare of their horses at the forefront
                      Until the money talks, and that means the owners, supporters, and generous donators of funds, it will never end. I am not judging her, I don't know enough about her to judge the situation. It isn't something we would do, but I know several who do.

                      I am not always sure people who fund this are in the know either. So we can't always fault them. I saw some pretty shoddy horsemanship from some pretty big people the last time I was at a CIC event. One horse, released from the box because of WHO the person was, and the constraints of riding so many horses, was taken back to the barn, and thrown in a stall with a cooler on. Horse had barely recovered his breath.

                      These things happen. I can also say, at this very same event, I watched the meticulous care of another BNR. The horses were matched all the way down to boots, were hand walked almost every hour, and the stalls never had poop in them. So...it takes all kinds. But I agree with this above statement. But it's more about who the flabor of the day is. And always will be. Someone once said to me that to get up to the ranks of international team member, the horse doesn't come first,a nd is quite far down the list. Politics, money, and the ability to walk on other's comes first. We now are taking some advice of a great person, we have changed our goals, Rolex. And then the other 4*'s overseas. probably a more attainable goal. That comes with the realization, that having your name on a list, which really is very beneficial as to sponsors and stuff, won't be realized. But the welfare of our horses is still top priority....which is as it should be.
                      May the sun shine on you daily, and your worries be gone with the wind.
                      www.mmceventing.com

                      Comment


                      • #71
                        Maybe (maybe! but I don't think so...) this is an ok program for an individual horse. Personally, I'd never use this approach with my horse.

                        What I think is very concerning is the overall trend. The OCET camp has shown a marked trend towards this type of management, particularly recently. Look at Mandiba. Look particularly at Marilyn Little and how hard she's pushed her horses the last couple of years trying to qualify. Let's not forget they were okay with trying to take a hurt horse to the Olympics last summer.

                        That is not a type of team atmosphere I want to support. If this is what is going to be advocated and what is going to be expected of horses and riders who want to be competitive for a team spot I think it is a very sad day for the sport.

                        I think only so much blame can be placed on the FEI. I don't like the changes they've made and I don't like how they've chosen to implement them, but we as riders are not slaves to the FEI. We are not beholden to the FEI. Instead of using the rule changes as an excuse for bad horsemanship, riders and owners and trainers should be willing to take a step back, do what is right for their horses, and I believe if there is a huge drop in qualified horses for events there will be a trigger for those rules to be reexamined and revised.

                        Comment


                        • #72
                          I agree about the trend an it is following the end of the classic three day. Our competitions are very different now and not nearly as taxing on the horses.

                          So, the new question is: How do we determine what is too much, now that we have less stress on our horses, and major advances in veterinary diagnostics, prevention, and treatment? I do not know the answer to that question. I am assuming that the team behind these horses are far more knowledgeable than I am....

                          Comment


                          • #73
                            I don't believe there is less stress on the horses. I think that's a load of crap, and I think most GOOD horsemen with experience at the long format will tell you their horses are just as tired at the end of a modern CCI as their horses were "back in the day." They still have to be VERY fit and they still get a lot of mileage placed on their bodies to get VERY fit. They still need to peak at the proper moment, and they have to run and jump a long time, and, at times, faster. This isn't easier.

                            Not to mention the stress of travel.
                            Amanda

                            Comment


                            • #74
                              Originally posted by yellowbritches View Post
                              I don't believe there is less stress on the horses. I think that's a load of crap, and I think most GOOD horsemen with experience at the long format will tell you their horses are just as tired at the end of a modern CCI as their horses were "back in the day." They still have to be VERY fit and they still get a lot of mileage placed on their bodies to get VERY fit. They still need to peak at the proper moment, and they have to run and jump a long time, and, at times, faster. This isn't easier.

                              Not to mention the stress of travel.
                              My vet will disagree wholeheartedly. He tells me that the disappearance of the long format meant far few horses come in to him shortly after an event, broken and done. He's seen a lot of top event horses over the years. I was surprised when he told me this as I went along with the popular opinion you note. Don't get me wrong, I love the long format. But I also believe my vet.

                              Comment


                              • #75
                                I am assuming that the team behind these horses are far more knowledgeable than I am....
                                Why would you assume this, especially after seeing years of 'management' of Mandiba?

                                Comment


                                • #76
                                  Originally posted by JER View Post
                                  Why would you assume this, especially after seeing years of 'management' of Mandiba?
                                  I am not knowledgeable of Mandiba's vet records, treatment, etc, and did not keep up with what was reported. Sorry...

                                  Comment


                                  • #77
                                    Originally posted by ahbaumgardner View Post
                                    My vet will disagree wholeheartedly. He tells me that the disappearance of the long format meant far few horses come in to him shortly after an event, broken and done. He's seen a lot of top event horses over the years. I was surprised when he told me this as I went along with the popular opinion you note. Don't get me wrong, I love the long format. But I also believe my vet.
                                    THAT may be better veterinary care. I trust the riders to know how their horses feel (especially those guys who have years of mileage at the long format). I wasn't saying that the horses are just as broken...I'm saying they are just as ready for a vacation. We can do a lot now that we couldn't even do 10 years ago.

                                    I think they still need that down time after a CCI. They worked hard. Their bodies and minds are tired. They may be strong and sound, but that doesn't mean they aren't ready for a rest.
                                    Amanda

                                    Comment


                                    • #78
                                      Originally posted by yellowbritches View Post
                                      THAT may be better veterinary care. I trust the riders to know how their horses feel (especially those guys who have years of mileage at the long format). I wasn't saying that the horses are just as broken...I'm saying they are just as ready for a vacation. We can do a lot now that we couldn't even do 10 years ago.

                                      I think they still need that down time after a CCI. They worked hard. Their bodies and minds are tired. They may be strong and sound, but that doesn't mean they aren't ready for a rest.
                                      And I do agree. I think my horse needs down time... Or maybe I'm the one who needs it, LOL. But I don't think I'm in a position to question others at this point, simply because I don't know that much.

                                      And my vet was quite certain in his belief that the classic format was harder on horses. And that does make sense. It's not a reason to question that format though. But it is a reason to think that the training and competition schedules do not transfer.

                                      Comment


                                      • #79
                                        As an admirer...

                                        ...of the sport more than a competitor in it, the situation the new qualification process has created--and the subsequent willingness of some outfits to bow to it--reminds me too much of the place from whence I came: hunter and equitation land. I'm never one to discipline-bash, but I can't help but see the parallel between this sort of campaigning and the point chasing I saw so much of as a child and 20-something.

                                        In both disciplines, it's a shame.
                                        "With mirth and laughter, let old wrinkles come" (Shakespeare).

                                        Comment


                                        • #80
                                          I've never been a fan of KOC. And I'm not an expert in horse care or management, but after reading the series about race horses and drugging, I think eventing has learned how to keep a horse running at a peak performance with pharmaceuticals.
                                          Hillary Rodham Clinton - the peoples choice for president.

                                          Comment

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