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WWYD, if sold a horse with undisclosed dangerous behavior?

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  • #21
    Yeah, but is she's that bad on the ground it's the kindest thing to do. She'll end up hurting or killing someone (which you already know). It sucks, but thank you for being conscious and conscientious instead of dirty (like so many).
    "IT'S NOT THE MOUNTAIN WE CONQUER, BUT OURSELVES." SIR EDMUND HILLARYMember of the "Someone Special To Me Serves In The Military" Clique

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    • #22
      You might want to delete details on here including lawyer's advice until after you have dealt with the matter

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      • Original Poster

        #23
        She is actually ok on the ground with me except for some minor things that could have been looked over if not combined with the rest, but according to the trainer she came to her pretty sour and anti-social in all aspects.

        All I've seen on the ground is that she has freaked out in the cross ties once, she is quite a challenge on the lunge and you can see she's contemplating aggression and she reared up a few times when I closed the doors behind her in the trailer, so I have to be really careful and talk to her while I close them slowly. I have a warmblood size fairly new Hawk, so it's not like I'm trying to stuff her into a tin can. All of these things make you really wonder what's truly going on in there. The owner also said she was quite a pill when she was just a baby as well, but they took care of it right away...man I feel stupid. This seller knew I had a toddler too, and said she's great with kids of any age. That just brings out a whole level of furious only a mother would understand!

        Thanks Crockpot. Attorney said it's not a problem, just can't share names

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        • #24
          Originally posted by Win1 View Post
          Seller is also the breeder.
          If all else fails, set up your own blog on this horse, document with your paper trail & photos & video & vet etc statements so that every time someone does an internet search on the breeder/seller, prospective clients get to see your story ...

          (don't include any commentary on the breeder/seller, only present "facts")

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          • #25
            Originally posted by alto View Post
            If all else fails, set up your own blog on this horse, document with your paper trail & photos & video & vet etc statements so that every time someone does an internet search on the breeder/seller, prospective clients get to see your story ...

            (don't include any commentary on the breeder/seller, only present "facts")
            You have to be careful with that. One person's fact is another person's libel. I know someone threatened with a lawsuit if she didn't delete her account of a similar story. All these stories are the industry's dirty secret. So may pros know who the liars are but unless you're in the inner circle, so to speak, you have no idea. I wish there was an Angie's List for horse trainers...

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            • #26
              Good luck with your case. I would donate her if possible or put her down. Sounds like the is something physically wrong with her.
              ** Tact is the ability to tell someone to go to hell in such a way that they look forward to the trip. ~Winston Churchill? **

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              • #27
                Originally posted by vineyridge View Post
                I had a mare who would rear. Trainer thought that she had been in loco weed because she was so great on the ground and only sporadically "crazy." We found out after her death that there was a physical reason.
                I don't mean to derail, but vineyridge what was the cause?

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                • #28
                  recurrent internal abscess--chronic peritonitis. She ended up with a huge mass of scar tissue that surrounded many veins, part of her liver, and a good part of her small intestine. She never showed any symptoms other than behavior, and as the vet said when she finally entered her final stages, "Who will do a belly tap on a horse that doesn't show signs?" By then, it was too late.
                  "I'm a lumberjack, and I'm okay."
                  Thread killer Extraordinaire

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                  • Original Poster

                    #29
                    Sorry to hear about that experience vineyridge, that could not have been an easy situation for you.

                    I agree many things are rooted in physical pain, but going back through all of my conversations with the seller, she did say the mare was quite difficult in the very beginning, like as a young foal. She did not give specific details, but honestly what foal doesn't test limits, so I left it at that. She blamed it on the fact that the mare was old and lame after the pregnancy so was not disciplining the foal as she should. Of course my eyes widened! But she concluded by saying not to worry, they nipped it right in the bud immediately and she has been perfect and wonderful since then. Sounds like most foals to me (the way it was presented anyway) but when you ad it all up hindsight becomes much more clear.

                    With this said, I'm doubting a physical issue. Sounds like she was a pill from day one and it's just her temperament unfortunately.

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                    • #30
                      Originally posted by Win1 View Post

                      With this said, I'm doubting a physical issue. Sounds like she was a pill from day one and it's just her temperament unfortunately.

                      And lack of correct handling of a strong willed foal/young horse through the years, I'd bet.
                      We're spending our money on horses and bourbon. The rest we're just wasting.
                      www.dleestudio.com

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                      • #31
                        Originally posted by bornfreenowexpensive View Post
                        Good luck with your case. I would donate her if possible or put her down. Sounds like the is something physically wrong with her.
                        I wouldn't recommend donating her to anywhere. Why put other people, esp people who are not horse savy, at risk of being injured by this horse? When you donate a hores to a program, remember that it is the non-horesy people that have to deal with the horse.
                        As for donating her to a vet school..why? What are they going to do with her if she is dangerous? They can't risk having students who can barely spell horse get hurt by her when handling her. ANd even if students dont' interact with her, staff will have to. And vet school staff are not horse experienced horse trainers, ie prob less experienced than you are. So other than them euthanizing her, there is nothing they can safely do with her either. And donating a horse to be euthanized is not a reason for donation.

                        Just my 2 cents.

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                        • #32
                          Originally posted by MeghanDACVA View Post
                          I wouldn't recommend donating her to anywhere. Why put other people, esp people who are not horse savy, at risk of being injured by this horse? When you donate a hores to a program, remember that it is the non-horesy people that have to deal with the horse.
                          As for donating her to a vet school..why? What are they going to do with her if she is dangerous? They can't risk having students who can barely spell horse get hurt by her when handling her. ANd even if students dont' interact with her, staff will have to. And vet school staff are not horse experienced horse trainers, ie prob less experienced than you are. So other than them euthanizing her, there is nothing they can safely do with her either. And donating a horse to be euthanized is not a reason for donation.

                          Just my 2 cents.
                          Huh? I think the point was to donate her so that she could be euthanized and necropsied for learning purposes given her behavior issues. Brain tumor, ovarian tumor, neurological issues... there is not a lot of funding for large sample sizes in veterinary medicine, so sometimes published case studies are what there is to go on.

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                          • Original Poster

                            #33
                            I'm an RVT and where I went to school we would use the donated horses for different purposes depending on student needs and temperamet. The really sweet ones who have earned a good retirement are blood donors who get a pretty nice life and plenty of attention/affection. The ones donated for behavior issues are generally used for teaching surgical procedures then euthanized on the table. There is little handling that goes on, only very experienced staff will handle her. The other option is using them in the anatomy lab.

                            The reason for donation to a vet school vs just euthanasia is that at least some good will come out of a very unfortunate ending. Students have to learn sometime, would you rather they have some hands on experience before they scrub in on your heart horse's surgery? It also makes all the difference in the world that these students get to dissect and study anatomy on an actual horse. We can all agree these are ideal ways of learning but we rarely give thought to where those animals come from. Having these opportunities while in school was something we were grateful for and it was never taken for granted.

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                            • Original Poster

                              #34
                              Good point Baxtersmom, necropsy is also a skill these students need to learn and if they see a need or if someone would like to explore the behavior from a physical standpoint I would certainly support it.

                              Comment


                              • #35
                                Originally posted by Win1 View Post
                                Good point Baxtersmom, necropsy is also a skill these students need to learn and if they see a need or if someone would like to explore the behavior from a physical standpoint I would certainly support it.
                                That was the only positive about my experience with my mare. The vet school did a necropsy and the students were able to see something that had not come through their doors often. They were able to learn from her.
                                "I'm a lumberjack, and I'm okay."
                                Thread killer Extraordinaire

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                                • Original Poster

                                  #36
                                  Originally posted by vineyridge View Post
                                  That was the only positive about my experience with my mare. The vet school did a necropsy and the students were able to see something that had not come through their doors often. They were able to learn from her.
                                  I'm glad this was the outcome for a seemingly hopeless situation. I can guarantee none of those students have forgotten the experience your choices ended up providing for them and I have no doubt they are better doctors from the exposure to such a unique case.

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                                  • #37
                                    So sorry! I will save you my drama with horse traders and bad breeders. Just hope you nail this person!
                                    On the Internet, nobody knows you're a dog

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                                    • #38
                                      My guess is that the seller no longer has the money to buy her back? This is a very difficult situation. Could the blog be talking about a different horse? Some trainers just don't get along with some horses, so you may need a lot more proof of a pre-existing issue in a lawsuit.

                                      I have a friend that went away on a vacation, and sent her quiet, easy horse to a top event trainer. When she got back, she got an earful about her dangerous, rearing, crazy horse. So she got on, and the horse was his usual easy self. I believe that was about 5? years ago, and no one else has ever had another problem.

                                      A similar issue happened to one of mine. I sold him as a weanling. 3 years later, his owner decided to go back to school, and sold him to a top dressage rider. She started him under saddle, and showed him, qualifying him for the BLM finals in his very first ever test. Sold to a kid for a big price, working under another top dressage rider. A few months later, he was rearing and crazy.

                                      Much vet work and training later, they decided he had some mysterious major issue. The kid's family offered him back for $1 to the person I sold him to has a baby, and then went after the seller in court, and lost.

                                      The original owner called me up after a few weeks, and asked if I ever saw him have a problem when I watched him go at Devon. Nope, but I did see he was miserable in his stall. It made me really sad to see him like that.

                                      She said when she first got on, he started back pedaling and rearing, and she said she just gave him a big whack, said "uh, uh, mamma's up now, thats not gonna work for ya". He has been perfect ever since - quite a few years now.

                                      In that case, you had 2 different Grand Prix dressage trainers - one that he was easy for, and the other that he didn't get along with at all - although I didn't see it. It may have simply been that the teenager got scared on the 4 year old, and started to hang, which made the youngster upset.

                                      Court cases are never easy. Try to settle this in another way if possible, and do think about the fact that the seller may have already spent the money, and not be able to refund.

                                      Comment

                                      • Original Poster

                                        #39
                                        Honestly not my problem if they spent the money, they should have thought of that before lying to me. This horse was too difficul for the breeder/owner/trainer, too difficult for another trainer, and was sent to someone else as a last effort. As stated in the blog, many had told her to give up and sell the horse, which apparently she decided to do.

                                        Nope, not a different horse. There are pictures and all. The horse even went back to the same trainer this past winter and came home just before the sale. I was told it was a lease when she was really there for training. Obviously I can only speculate as to why she went back to that trainer less than a year later, but I've got a good hunch

                                        I agree no one enjoys litigation. I am doing my best to work it out before we cross that bridge but time is running out.

                                        I can understand horses not getting along under saddle with certain riders. But selling the horse as 'safe for any age child' when there is a long running history of dangerous behavior from the time she was a few days old is unethical and with the statements I have from the seller it steps over the line by anyone's standards.

                                        Comment


                                        • #40
                                          Win1-I applaude you for your tough decision if you can't return the horse. It's a truly caring person that will do the right thing, and protect future riders.

                                          I hope you do get a full refund, and the seller learns the awful thing that they did selling this horse as 'anyone can ride' and 'child safe'.
                                          You can't fix stupid-Ron White

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