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Commentary on lower level three days

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  • #61
    It's also quite likely and perfectly all right if a segment of the eventing world DOES NOT CARE about the long format one way or the other. They don't see the point, they don't want to, it isn't important to them.

    It is true that a sort of passive neglect or apathy may very well spell the end of this format. And many people don't care. I don't find fault with them for that. One can only do what one can do--can't make other people care, participate, or support. So if one is so inclined, CARE. PARTICIPATE. SUPPORT. There are many more ways to do this than to enter and ride in them.
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    • #62
      [QUOTE=JP60;6948831 Maybe other areas had them longer, but from the general presentation it seems not for that long past. [/QUOTE]


      There was one put on BN-T (maybe it was N-T, I can't remember) over 10 years ago in my area. Back when we actually still had UL Long formats. It lasted only 2 years. Was considered too much work by the organizers to put on for the turn out. I know that I had all the flags stored at my place for a few years!

      I don't know if there is a solution. But it has been an issue for a while. I'm not sure there is enough commitment to get people involved or get them to go....and I'm not sure there is enough volunteer energy to run these events. Seems more have made the AECs a goal......me, I'd rather do a 3 day.
      Last edited by bornfreenowexpensive; Apr. 19, 2013, 10:04 PM.
      ** Tact is the ability to tell someone to go to hell in such a way that they look forward to the trip. ~Winston Churchill? **

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      • #63
        Originally posted by deltawave View Post
        Indiana's dates are a challenge, but I still go whenever I can. But there are a lot of people up here in the North who can't get a horse ready by April or May. It is also expensive and taking 3 days off from work is BRUTAL for many people, myself included.
        Now that Penny Oaks moved their event to May, perhaps IEA could move theirs to Aug/Sept...hopefully just before the winter coats start growing on the beasts. A girl can wish, right?
        That's fine, many of us have slid down this slippery slope and became very happy (and broke) doing it. We may not have a retirement, but we have memories ...

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        • #64
          August is packed full up here with events, but yeah, September would be perfect!
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          • #65
            Let's get technical questions at lower level xc fences.

            Originally posted by KateWooten View Post
            I'm not the only one. There are many of us who are career lower-level eventers for life, or who are happy at a lower level for now. And with that comes boring boring boring boring XC. If I want to jump a coffin, it has to be at 3ft 3. We are simply not allowed to anything more mind-challenging than the very very simple combinations available at N. So, what's the point ? An N3D offers more expense, some tracks and trails, but absolutely No more fun stuff than any other N.
            THIS is exactly how I feel, but I didn't realize it until Kate Wooten said it - I don't want to do high fences anymore, but I want the challenges of more technical fences, and tougher (not longer!) xc courses.

            Another reason I wouldn't do the 3 day is because I AM on a budget.

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            • #66
              Correction to above post...

              I should really add that I'm a very experienced rider (in h/j for decades) and have been eventing for 2 years - which is why I'd love more technical fences, and don't want to have to go high to get them. (Hey, I paid my dues! I'm 58 and on a TB I started. I'm allowed to be chicken.)

              However, I CAN see why many people will read that, imagine tough questions in lower level events with many riders being inexperienced (& some who shouldn't even be out there), and turn white! It is a scary thought.
              Last edited by afox2332; Apr. 21, 2013, 10:19 PM. Reason: grammar

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              • #67
                Originally posted by afox2332 View Post
                I don't want to do high fences anymore, but I want the challenges of more technical fences, and tougher (not longer!) xc courses.
                I think this is more problematic than losing the Long Format. The levels should be clear as to what a competitor should expect - types of jumps, complexity of questions, length of course, whether there is water, etc. And the levels should be designed as a progression to the next level. If the level is too easy, then the rider should move up...

                With that said, I may not be able to achieve my goal of a T3DE (for a whole, huge bunch of reasons) and I may end up getting stuck* at Novice (not what I'm working towards). If that's the case and Novice seems too easy but Training too hard, then I will seek out the more complex courses in my area and then maybe do a few Showcations to other Areas to try out their courses.

                *The word stuck is a reflection of me not moving forward in my goals and not a reflection of any one person who is comfortable, safe and happy at thier level.
                Last edited by CANTEREOIN; Apr. 22, 2013, 04:37 PM. Reason: clarity of point
                Live, Laugh, Love
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                • #68
                  Not going to happen. The reason POHT moved to May was because the ground is frequently hard as concrete in August & the nearby Military base has a games of some sort that takes up the nearby hotels. The Area VIII calendar is very full in September, we sure would not want to go up against KY Classique, Flying Cross or Jump Start.

                  Originally posted by OTTBs View Post
                  Now that Penny Oaks moved their event to May, perhaps IEA could move theirs to Aug/Sept...hopefully just before the winter coats start growing on the beasts. A girl can wish, right?

                  Comment


                  • #69
                    I was lucky enough to do a CCI* long format in 2001. We made it halfway around XC before being eliminated (had some soundness issues) but I still count it as a highlight of my riding career to date... along with the 3 T3DEs. I don't know if or when I'll get the chance to do a 3DE at any level again, but if the opportunity presented itself, I wouldn't hesitate and would do any amount of budgeting of money and vacation time that I needed to do. Heck, to do the CCI* I had to work several Saturdays after the event as I'd run out of vacation time! Want something bad enough, you find a way to make it happen.... at least I do.
                    ************
                    "Of course it's hard. It's supposed to be hard. It's the Hard that makes it great."

                    "Get up... Get out... Get Drunk. Repeat as needed." -- Spike

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                    • #70
                      JP60

                      Erm... just saw all this stuff directed at me personally. I thought I was contributing another voice to a discussion, but apparently that's not OK with JP60. So.
                      Originally posted by JP60 View Post
                      Wow, somebody took a double dose of doggie downers today...
                      Wow, and somebody else puffed himself up with yet another hit of condescending, self-aggrandizing hot air today.

                      Originally posted by JP60 View Post
                      Are you sure you read the same posts I did. I mean sure there were a few "it costs a lot, there goes the vacation", but I also read, "I would, but my horse is lame, I have no horse, I haven't had a chance to even ride" (safety does matter for both), and those like me who are working on qualifying. I would not call them wall flowers.
                      I called no one a wallflower. All these things you mention, all of these are among the "million thing that get in the way." That some are major and some are trivial is irrelevant because the end result is the same: People say they want to enter but, in reality, many of these events don't fill. I am talking about the reality of what is happening with event entries; for you to dismiss that reality as my "blah blah negative blah" mindset is even less productive to solving the problem, if there is a solution.
                      (And pardon me for not falling over myself to congratulate you for "working on" qualifying. You need to get through 4 BN events without falling off or being eliminated. That's not a challenge; that's simply what *should* happen before you think about adding the extra layer of complexity of a 3DE. I do wonder, in passing, if making the qualifying standards so very low in order to make these events more accessible to all has the unintended consequence of making them not quite so special -- with no time limit on qualifications or standards beyond crossing the finish line, perhaps riders are less invested in the process and its easier to say "Oh well, maybe next year instead" and not attend?)

                      Originally posted by JP60 View Post

                      We're talking about a mindshift that was shaped by an International cartel, compliance by our National Organization, and lack of support from the most influential amongst us, not just for a year, but for many. You sure don't help with that whole "blah blah negative blah" viewpoint. Who is to say, other then you, that a BN/N3DE does not have the same concept of speed or endurance as a higher level. That is in the heart of the rider it is clear that anyone who's ridden through A-D has experienced something different then your average HT. As it is, I survived my own BN A-D phase (well, technically I W'd at D for my own safety) and found it amazingly hard to do properly.
                      Who is to say other than me? Well, how about the black-and-white parameters set for the level: less than an hour (the standard length of a ride or lesson) in the saddle, plus a nice D-box rest to break up that sub-hour ride; steeplechase speeds that barely touch the extended canter or hand-gallop; a phase C that can organizers can set at 160 mpm for a nice walk in the countryside. ... This is not to denigrate the level, it is just fact. That you mistook my statement for some kind of elistist value judgment on my part might indicate you are unfamiliar with the heights and speeds or what they mean?
                      I'm sure it's a fun and educational experience for those who participate; I was simply pointing out that, from an educational/horsemanship perspective, when the idea of the traditional three-day event is modified to be appropriate for the BN or N level, the speed and endurance no longer translate. There is no true gallop (or "speed") involved -- nor should there be for the size of fences, as that would be unsafe -- and no "endurance" to train for because a healthy horse in good weight being ridden regularly (which, as you point out, should be happening for safety's sake) should be capable of handling the speeds and length of the A-D phases without much, if any, extra work other than a regular, well-balanced combination of flatwork, jumping and hacking. It would be inappropriate to embark upon a fitness schedule that includes substantial trot sets, hill work, etc., to prepare for a BN3DE as that would be overconditioning for the demands of the event, which is no more appropriate (for the horse or to learn horsemanship) at BN than it is at advanced. (And, if you happen to own a horse whose build or soundness makes getting him fit enough for a BN or N3DE a legitimate challenge that really does require 6 days a week of serious work, then he's probably not right for the sport, and the best lesson in horsemanship to be learned would be to find a sport that better suits him rather than trying to force a square peg into a round hole because it's what you, as the rider, wants.)

                      Originally posted by JP60 View Post
                      Find some puppy uppers and perhaps help fan the flames of interest, not dash water on it.
                      What IS with equating someone who doesn't agree with you with a dog? You write post after posting demanding respect from others, but you certainly don't give it in return, do you?

                      Originally posted by JP60 View Post
                      Organizers may have made it easy, but it is up to us help them get people in. Read NT's comment again and find for me a statement or idea on how to do that. I'm one who wants to solve a problem, so saying "It sucks" is fine, but please follow up with how to make it better, even if it was let it go. That's what I was calling out. So NeverTime, numbers are low, how would you change it? Drop LF all together or figure a way to get people to go?
                      JP60, if you'd actually read my post for comprehension instead of being so focused on crafting your snarky response, you'd see that I've already answered your questions, although they are not the answer you want.
                      I think organizers have done all they can to make these competitions as accessible as humanly possible.
                      At this point, it is up to you, the competitor, to get yourself there. Taking responsibility for oneself and one's horse is at the heart of the three-day experience at any level; if you can't take enough responsibility to get yourself to the event, should you then be trusted to have taken responsibility for getting yourself and your horse properly prepared?!

                      It's not my job, or another competitor's job, or an organizer's job to beg and plead for you to enter, to treat you like a preschooler who needs to be packed up on the bus and escorted there with hand held, or to continue the labor of love that is hosting (organizing, paying for, etc.) undersubscribed events in the hope that one year you will finally be qualified, have the money and not have something more pressing to do on that particular weekend.
                      I'd like to think maybe giving these a few more years to catch on would work, but look at the prelim long-format: They've been going on since the demise of the long-format CCI, and I could be wrong, but I think participation is steadily declining with time, not increasing.

                      So, my solution is just what I said in the original post, in response to the original question: Yes, give up. Actions speak louder than words, and if people aren't entering, regardless of what they say they want, then apparently the REAL demand is not sufficient to host these.

                      And, as long as you've chosen to do some "calling out," let me do the same: While I applaud your passion for the sport, you still know so very little about it. Yet that doesn't stop you from waxing on (and on and on), often about issues you don't know all that much about and prove as much in your posting, sometimes unknowingly contradicting yourself from one post to the next. Most of your posts are entertaining, some are heart-warming. But when someone offers to correct you or provides a better-educated perspective that doesn't agree with your own, you accuse them of being brainwashed supporters of a broken system, being prejudiced against LLRs, etc, etc.

                      While your penchant for posting with great frequency and length is impressive, I wish your willingness to learn was as great as your desire to be heard.
                      I evented just for the Halibut.

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                      • #71
                        Nevertime makes a good point below. There is only one P3DE left, and that is MSEDA's in October. And it is under attended. And it has a custom made Stackhouse saddle as a prize--your odds are pretty good at winning it when only 6 or 8 people enter.

                        I run the IEA N3DE and T3DE. I hope we get more entries as I'm not sure it is worth giving up a week of my time (for set up) and the hours put in ahead of time.

                        They are more expensive than the regular HT's because they cost more. I con all my clinicians and vets into donating their time (bless their hearts), but we pay their expenses, we need more volunteers, more equipment (I bring the flags from my farm to flag A/B/C)--roping for steeplechase, brush for steeplechase, additional fences & deviation in tracks for D.

                        I strongly support the classic format, but unless more trainers and coaches support their students riding in them I don't see it as a viable thing for much longer.

                        Realist--not someone who has taken "doggie downers".


                        Originally posted by NeverTime View Post

                        At this point, it is up to you, the competitor, to get yourself there. Taking responsibility for oneself and one's horse is at the heart of the three-day experience at any level; if you can't take enough responsibility to get yourself to the event, should you then be trusted to have taken responsibility for getting yourself and your horse properly prepared?!

                        It's not my job, or another competitor's job, or an organizer's job to beg and plead for you to enter, to treat you like a preschooler who needs to be packed up on the bus and escorted there with hand held, or to continue the labor of love that is hosting (organizing, paying for, etc.) undersubscribed events in the hope that one year you will finally be qualified, have the money and not have something more pressing to do on that particular weekend.
                        I'd like to think maybe giving these a few more years to catch on would work, but look at the prelim long-format: They've been going on since the demise of the long-format CCI, and I could be wrong, but I think participation is steadily declining with time, not increasing.

                        .

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                        • #72
                          Sorry--double post

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                          • #73
                            Originally posted by LAZ View Post
                            I strongly support the classic format, but unless more trainers and coaches support their students riding in them I don't see it as a viable thing for much longer.
                            Hearing this coming from LAZ makes me want to cry for our sport.
                            ************
                            "Of course it's hard. It's supposed to be hard. It's the Hard that makes it great."

                            "Get up... Get out... Get Drunk. Repeat as needed." -- Spike

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                            • #74
                              Originally posted by ThirdCharm View Post
                              I can't find entry status anywhere, so don't know how many actually ran, but I'll comment on some possible reasons....

                              It is hard for the average working stiff to take 2-3 days off work in the current employment climate.

                              It is hard for the average working stiff to cough up $450 for a lower level event given the state of the economy. Not to mention running qualifiers and hiring a groom etc etc.

                              It is hard for a coach to justify taking their couple of riders who have managed to overcome the above, and spend 4-5 days at a lower level event, when they could instead wait a week, take 5 or 6 riders and spend 2 days at another lower level event making 3x as much money for half the time. Or take 5-6 riders to a one-day schooling event over a recognized course.

                              I'd love to support the event but it would be much easier with a regular HT run concurrently.

                              Jennifer
                              I was trying to find a nice way of saying just this.
                              I totally acknowledge the athleticism needed for the long format, and the accompanying accomplishment and success. But I'm an amateur. I'm the mother of a four-month-old. There are some things my family just can't afford time- and money-wise, and the short format is nearly pushing it already.

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                              • #75
                                I hope people are not avoiding these events because their coach can't go. That sounds scarily hunter-ish to me. There's SO MUCH teaching, instruction, and help available at these events. Yes, you need a helper. ONE is plenty, if he or she has a little bit of ambition. It does not require an entourage.
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                                • #76
                                  Originally posted by deltawave View Post
                                  I hope people are not avoiding these events because their coach can't go. That sounds scarily hunter-ish to me. There's SO MUCH teaching, instruction, and help available at these events.
                                  I was trying to find a nice way of saying THAT, LOL.
                                  Life doesn't have perfect footing.

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                                  • #77
                                    Originally posted by afox2332 View Post
                                    THIS is exactly how I feel, but I didn't realize it until Kate Wooten said it - I don't want to do high fences anymore, but I want the challenges of more technical fences, and tougher (not longer!) xc courses.

                                    Another reason I wouldn't do the 3 day is because I AM on a budget.
                                    afox- the lower levels today are much more technical than they were years ago. I guess the upper levels are too, but I wonder how much of that is trickle down, and how much of that is because the organizers do want to challenge and keep interested persons who do not want to move up (which is fine!!) The dressage is much better quality too lol.

                                    I would do a T3DE or a P3DE. I was intending to do a T3DE this year, but my chestnut had to get PTS so now I'm back on a coming 4 yr old, thinking about BN in the fall. My plan (plans ha) was to do the T3DE and then move the orange princess up to P. Not in the cards I guess.

                                    I had a career novicer (that was going to be the level he was most comfortable with) that I wanted to do the N3DE @ GMHA 2 yrs ago, but I couldn't get the qualifying scores for D. Sometimes, less than 50 is difficult LOL.

                                    I do have to say, that one of the reasons why some people might not do them, and some trainers not support their students doing long format is the fitness issue, especially if they aren't moving up afterwards. What I mean is the negative effect extra fitness has on dressage when lower level dressage is so dang competitive nowadays. Maybe that's more of an issue w/ a T3DE vs a N or BN. I dunno :shrugs:

                                    I love the long format. I have gotten better at buying brains and I don't think that I would have the rideabilty issues with the fitness that I had in the 90s. I hope its still around when Lenny (the coming 4 yr old) is ready.
                                    Unrepentant carb eater

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                                    • #78
                                      Couple of quick comments: when i did the T3D, my coach tried to come up for XC day, but couldn't. Other experienced competitors (Alison Springer especially!) and the pros who were volunteering provided any knowledge that was needed. They were so helpful!

                                      Interesting view point on the fitness issue. My experience was completely the opposite. The more fitness work my sensitive and high strung OTTB got, the better and steadier she became. Our warmup for dressage was the best EVER, and our test would have been too, except the farmer across the street let his cows out fo the barn as we were circling the ring to begin our test. Once that happened, I considered it a personal victory that we stayed on the ring.
                                      They don't call me frugal for nothing.
                                      Proud and achy member of the Eventing Grannies clique.

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                                      • #79
                                        Originally posted by NeverTime View Post

                                        While your penchant for posting with great frequency and length is impressive, I wish your willingness to learn was as great as your desire to be heard.
                                        Amazing...

                                        To clarify, the term doggie downer/puppy uppers was in reference to an old Saturday Night Live show back when I was much younger. Had you known the skit you may have understood the underlying humor, snarky? Amazing.

                                        Willingness to learn vs desire to be heard?

                                        I pondered this for a long time...you are so wrong. I learn from people I respect. You I do not respect. Your words to me seem to indicate the same so it seems we agree on that point.

                                        I'll grant this, my voice does not matter. This I see now. My view, my belief and passion about Eventing does not belong here. To one like you its too simple, to others, of little interest. Before this forum I rode, learned, and had fun. I'll do the same after. I did learn something...

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                                        • #80
                                          I thought it was pretty snarky, as well. Nevertime has singlehandedly brought a horse up to the Advanced level from the lower levels and I feel she's qualified to comment on what the workaday amateur rider goes through to chase their passion.

                                          Not everyone has to see things exactly the same to be worthy of the title of "supporter of the game".
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