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Commentary on lower level three days

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  • #21
    Originally posted by pegasusmom View Post
    To qualify at Novice level requires the rider to complete four novice level events. Complete. No MERs. Complete. It took about a six week commitment to a horse that gets ridden normally about 3-4 times a week to get ready for this event. This is not about getting to Rolex. It's not about giving lower level eventers more technical course (yikes), it's about providing a level of education that is being lost in eventing today.
    If I recall correctly, GMHA did have some requirements about the qualifying events. I believe it was a dressage score under 50, no xc penalties (except maybe for 1/4 was allowed a 20), and no more than 16 penalties in stadium. While those may seem pretty attainable, if you screw up at one Novice enough, you just blew all that money at an event you can't use for the N3D. I don't know if its like that for all of them, but it definitely was for GMHA.

    Not to mention, 4 recognized events before stabling, gas, food, time off work if you need it, etc is upwards of $800. Most of the people I know, myself included, attend a mix of recognized and unrecognized shows to offset some costs once in a while and you obviously can't qualify at unrecognized events.

    I am a huge supporter of the long format and I hope to do one but it truly is not as easy to get to one as some people are making it out to be. Maybe if they only required two or three events at the level, or just made the requirements completion as opposed to limits on penalties it would be more straightforward. I think right now people have to jump through too many hoops to make it a real goal of theirs.

    Originally posted by CANTEREOIN View Post
    2) I am not a fan of the BN3DE or the N3DE for a whole bunch of reasons. Most folks I've talked to think they are fun (BN3DE and N3DE) and not as a tool to move up to the next level. Once a person has done a 3DE at any level, they've achieved it and see no reason to move up to the next level of 3DE.
    I do support the lower level three days but I completely agree with you that most people are content with doing one and then being done with the three days, myself included. That is definitely a problem.


    • #22
      It is on my wish list! Doing the BN 3DE will be my Rolex

      But, am not ready to compete (um, my mare isn't jumping, for instance!) but I believe in what they are doing, so I'm a sponsor!!

      1-3rd places in each division and the winning riders grooms will all get saddle soap!

      Pegususmom - want to be my company rep at the event, since I can't actually go?

      I have Higher Standards ...do you? Find us on FB!
      Higher Standards Custom Leather Care -- Handcrafted Saddle Soap


      • #23
        Originally posted by CANTEREOIN View Post
        2) I am not a fan of the BN3DE or the N3DE for a whole bunch of reasons. Most folks I've talked to think they are fun (BN3DE and N3DE) and not as a tool to move up to the next level. Once a person has done a 3DE at any level, they've achieved it and see no reason to move up to the next level of 3DE.
        I could go on... I do no bashing because I truly hope that I will be able to do a T3DE before its extinct. I won't do either a BN or a N3DE... my Rolex is T3DE.
        At first I wanted o rant and rail against you. Then I realized what you really needed was a hug. Here's a hug


        Lord it must be so hard to carry that weight of exclusion. I can't say I understand for I tend to be more open and accepting, thrilled when new people join a group and want to feel part of a crowd. You never know, it may that your desire to still have a T3DE may rely on the backs of those undeserving BN riders (are they even worthy to think about Long Formats?) who work themselves up to such lofty heights.

        Just for perspective, when I complete my BN3DE I will be already planning my N3DE. It might take me a little more time, but were I to make it to training I'd then be planning my T3DE and by then I may see you as a spectator on the side. As I go up I'd be trying to bring more BN riders to such events, sharing how great it is, what can be learned, and how it is part of the Eventing tradition, and not just a "fun time" (aren't they all?).

        So one more hug


        just to say I care, even if I don't agree.


        • Original Poster

          From the Omnibus Listing - N3D: Rider only must have completed 4 Novice Horse Trials or higher. BN3D: Rider only must have completed 4 Beginner Novice Horse Trials or higher.

          Most folks are probably already qualified. Note there is no time limit on the qualifications. Training is a different kettle of fish and subject to somewhat different requirements.

          Bensmom - I'd love to be your company rep for the event! Love your soap!!



          • #25
            Yay! I'm sending the soap up to the sponsor coordinator by next week. We are using a temporary logo for the programs, because the "real" one won't be ready yet. But, the timeline has the logo ready by May 1, so I may want to send that up to you, so that in the prize giving photos, it could be substituted for the temporary one.

            If I get ambitious between now and then, and complete all open orders and ship the few samples that are left, maybe I can send you some samples to hand out at your discretion?

            I just love the concept of the lower level 3DE -- I know that not everyone will, but I've faced the fact that as I've gotten older, fatter, and more of a scaredy-cat, the chances I'll ever go Training are slim, and a T3DE? Not a chance.

            I'm terrified to go BN again, though I'm thinking on the right horse, I'll be fine.

            So, at this point, the BN3DE is my goal -- people that are closer to being ready need to go support it so it is still there once I am actually riding my horse . . .Sigh.

            Libby (who hasn't been on her horse in three months . . .but I can still dream!)
            I have Higher Standards ...do you? Find us on FB!
            Higher Standards Custom Leather Care -- Handcrafted Saddle Soap


            • #26
              I have ALWAYS wanted to do a 3 day. I could easily do a BN3D with my horse right now, but I'm in Area 2 and there are so many nice unrec. HTs that doing 4 rec. just to qualify is sort of annoying and way more expensive.

              I also don't have the money to spend on a 3day, in fact, I've been doing some local hunter shows just to get him out and over some jumps (and yes, I go around in the pleasure class keeping his dressage frame!).

              The idea is nice, but now that the upper level 3 days are dwindling it doesn't even feel like "I'm taking the next step toward being in the upper levels", it just feels like I'm doing a long clinic or something random. That doesn't really make sense, but it does in my head!!
              http://www.clarkdesigngrouparchitects.com/index.html - Lets build your dream barn


              • #27
                Originally posted by JP60 View Post
                At first I wanted o rant and rail against you. Then I realized what you really needed was a hug. Here's a hug


                Lord it must be so hard to carry that weight of exclusion. I can't say I understand for I tend to be more open and accepting, thrilled when new people join a group and want to feel part of a crowd. You never know, it may that your desire to still have a T3DE may rely on the backs of those undeserving BN riders (are they even worthy to think about Long Formats?) who work themselves up to such lofty heights.

                Just for perspective, when I complete my BN3DE I will be already planning my N3DE. It might take me a little more time, but were I to make it to training I'd then be planning my T3DE and by then I may see you as a spectator on the side. As I go up I'd be trying to bring more BN riders to such events, sharing how great it is, what can be learned, and how it is part of the Eventing tradition, and not just a "fun time" (aren't they all?).

                So one more hug


                just to say I care, even if I don't agree.
                Please don't misunderstand me. I do not judge anyone who wants to do a BN of N3DE negatively or gosh not even close - to be anything less than inclusive. That is not how I think or live.

                My comment was that folks I talked to (BN and N) are doing it for fun, not necessarily as a learning/clinic tool. (Believe me, I interviewed quite a few when I was involved with the Long Format Club for articles I planned to write.) Some saw it as a test to move up or their own Rolex. They were few and far between.

                Eventing should be fun... I was addressing the why... why are these events not filling up? Out of context, my statement could appear to be judgemental. My intent was to say, that once completed, these people are likely not to reenter at their current level and may not move up to the next. One less LF entry.

                I felt at the time, and still feel that IF the trainers are not pushing it (at any level), and are not encouraging it as a test to move up, then it will die. I don't want to see it die. I've volunteered, given money and promoted the LF for a long time.

                The final comment is that I want the T3DE to be my crowning achievement. And, I want to wake up a day or two after it and be wondering if, maybe I could do a bit more.

                Thanks for the hugs... It makes me smile.
                Live, Laugh, Love


                • #28
                  Originally posted by Eventer13 View Post
                  Most people on this board are strong supporters of the long format. You're preaching to the choir.
                  Yes, but if this is the case why the low entries?


                  • #29
                    My students would really, really like to do this event- but timing unfortunately makes it impossible. It is not a good weekend with high school/college/grad school exams. I really wish they could do it, but just not possible until, well, they graduate. I do love and support the traditional format, and am also sad to see so few entries.


                    • #30
                      It is hard for the average working stiff to take 2-3 days off work in the current employment climate.

                      Looking at the Southern Eigths schedule, unless you live close enough to whip over in the morning, then the average amateur competitor will be taking 3 days off of work.

                      Don't get me wrong, I LOVE the long format, and did both a T3D and a CCI* when they were still LF, but given that now the target audience of a BN/N/T3D are amateurs, I don't get why they insist on running them during the week. Southern Eigths is better than most - GMHA and Waradaca run entirely during the week (not trying to bash these shows - love them both and give them so much credit for persevering with the LF, just trying to point out that there may be ways to increase participation).

                      Given the fact that entries aren't usually very high, why can't they do the first horse inspection Friday morning, and then get all the dressage in in the afternoon?

                      And yes, I understand that part of the schedule is because of the educational opportunities, but in a way, I think, at least from my experience, people go to compete - they don't treat it like a week long camp; it is a competition like any other. I think the schedule is just too burdensome for many.


                      • #31
                        Not entered anywhere because I currently don't have a horse and it may be some time before I honestly go looking. One of my greatest fears is the LF will be dead from lack of interest.

                        The FEI has done its best to destroy the Eventing LF and from what I hear has its sights set on Combined Driving next. Funny how a LF competition will break down a horse, but long distance Endurance Riding is a-ok.
                        "Never do anything that you have to explain twice to the paramedics."
                        Courtesy my cousin Tim


                        • Original Poster

                          Fooler, yes they are starting to muck around a bit with the marathon. Thus far ADS as resisted, except in the FEI level divisions.



                          • #33
                            For the person who thinks it "just adds some tracks and trails" to do a long format, you could not be more wrong. There are for more layers of complexity there and it is NOT appropriate for technical questions to appear at the lower level. I hope that you will give yourself a chance to learn this someday, since you seem to want to learn something new, I am very sorry if you forgo the opportunity.

                            I'm helping run the So8ths 3-day, I've helped with Waredaca, as I've said before. Even though I've yet to have a sound horse ready to go to ride in them, I've learned an ENORMOUS amount of invaluable information that I've applied in my training of ALL competition.

                            It does suck that it's on weekdays. Oh, I know! I work full time+ and driving 5 hours to Waredaca or 3 hours to So8ths and working my tail off for four days is exhausting. But very rewarding and I will do whatever I can to support them because I have seen what they are and what they can do.

                            There are a lot of excuses, most of which have to do with planning, and in the end it's a personal decision. The T3DE is my goal, although I didn't make it with first horse due to injury, I will try again with the second horse. You don't have to do all four qualifiers in the same year either. No, it is not cheap (and I am very poor) but for me, it's a priority to support it because I will not give ONE THIN DIME to FEI nor do I have any interest in what they want to turn the sport into.

                            Tired brain is rambling, but THANK YOU to those who DO participate as competitors and volunteers. You don't need to hire trainers and grooms and whatnot -- the event itself becomes a group activity, not a survival torture trial. At the very least, come lend a hand and check it out -- heck, we pulled off endurance day with 16 volunteers at Waredaca last year, which was rather embarrassing considering how many eventers live in that area, but everyone rallied and stepped up and made it a great experience and a team effort.
                            Life doesn't have perfect footing.

                            Bloggily entertain yourself with our adventures (and disasters):
                            We Are Flying Solo


                            • #34
                              Support, actual boots on the ground, show up and help all day support, for the classic format competitions has ALWAYS been suspect.

                              Despite all the talkies on this board, walkies have always been scarce.

                              I stuck my neck out and worked on one for five years -- it was a good thing I was unemployed at the time I started, because it was taking well over 40 hours a week for about three months prior to the event -- that was just sponsorship coordination. The time, effort, money and sweat and tears it takes to do a classic format competition from the organizers standpoint is just immense today. I do think it is more expensive and difficult to do that it was years ago. If the support is not there (and by "there", I mean people who show up, riders and workers) then it needs to die its death. It is what it is.
                              Proud & Permanent Student Of The Long Road
                              Read me: EN (http://eventingnation.com/author/annemarch/) and HJU (http://horsejunkiesunited.com/author/holly-covey/)


                              • #35
                                I want to do a T3D, but whenever it comes to crunching the numbers (days off work, hotel, farm sitter for ponies at home, entries that incl stabling, etc.) and seeing it costs more than my whole usual season (of 1 day events without stabling), I don't want it *that* much. I'd rather do my usual 4-5 events.

                                I think I would do it for the P3D as that has been my goal for a long time. But with just 1 qualifier so far I might have to hope it is still around in 2014.


                                • #36
                                  Originally posted by CANTEREOIN View Post
                                  Please don't misunderstand me. I do not judge anyone who wants to do a BN of N3DE negatively or gosh not even close - to be anything less than inclusive. That is not how I think or live. ...
                                  Thanks for the hugs... It makes me smile.
                                  (maybe I need one)

                                  Thank you for your response. I think you do make a great point about trainers not promoting it (even mine which is a little surprising) and that's one of the nails in this box. They seem to not see this as an opportunity to teach riders about horsemanship (its not just about riding we all know), care for a horse in stress conditions and pushing the value of why its important to be fit (both horse and rider). Were I a trainer it would be the highlight of the season.

                                  Yet it is not just trainers, if we had top riders talking about the benefits of the long format, if they made time to go (yes even with a greener horse at a lower level) that could help lead people to do the same. Sadly, these Pros (aka BNR) have little opportunity to lead, but can only dance to the FEI and some concept of TEAM that allows for little else.

                                  Another culprit is our dear USEA which does little to encourage as well. Since they choose to sup from the same cup as our European Uberlords it is not surprising their support is tepid, focusing instead on how to make a better USA team, less on the roots.

                                  (but I'm not bitter )

                                  I still don't understand the reasoning behind ride once, never again. I've ridden JBF three times, FENCE twice, Full gallop twice and I would keep going back. Just because someone adds three extra elements would not stop me (at least) from wanting to do it again. Why do we keep running BN at the same places? N at the same etc. I don't see a LF as a Rolex (which does not have a LF), I see it as a different aspect to Eventing which will always challenge me and my horse. Even if I got a blue, I'd run again, because maybe it will be different (or can I repeat). LF may be challenging physically, but is that not in part why we ride, to be challenged?

                                  I really really really wish they would change the date at So8s, listen to the crowd (guests) in this case, for like another post mentioned, we are talking time off which is more important then cost in my book.

                                  If they drop this by next year I will be really pissed, till that happens I will work towards my first show.


                                  • #37
                                    I am a supporter and always have it in my head to run one whenever possible if I have a horse qualified and fit enough. If I can't go, I cough up a check or some prizes, at least.

                                    I just entered the IEA N3D with my horse who's ready to move up to Prelim. Why? Because I want to do a lower level 3 day and he's not going to be fit or ready for the T3D--he was mildly injured in October and there is NOWHERE to do interval work here until late April at the earliest.

                                    Indiana's dates are a challenge, but I still go whenever I can. But there are a lot of people up here in the North who can't get a horse ready by April or May. It is also expensive and taking 3 days off from work is BRUTAL for many people, myself included.

                                    So don't assume it's necessarily a lack of "want to" or simply inconvenient.
                                    Click here before you buy.


                                    • #38
                                      Originally posted by pegasusmom View Post

                                      As a once and possibly future organizer. . . (ACME is looking for the Calgon right about now) I can say that these events won't survive if they are not supported. I understand it is a commitment money wise and time wise. But these events appear on the calendar every year at the same time. Plan ahead, save your money, bank your vacation days. . . sorry guys, it's just not that hard. Or don't be surprised when they are no longer offered.

                                      SLR, feeling. . . ."frisky". Probably has to do with a stooo-pid mistake I made on Saturday that allowed me to fritter away a fabulous dressage score with the big E. Not every day you get to watch the driving equivalent of a 25 go down the drain. . . sigh. I'm just going to sulk around and stir up trouble this week.
                                      Calgon, take me away!

                                      Firstly, so sorry about the big E!! You'll have to give me the details of that one, didn't know anything about it.

                                      Secondly, as much as I want to do a 3 day LF I absolutely could not work out the days off from work for the Heart of Carolina's show. Getting to one of the few existing LF's is not just about lack of passion or commitment, it is about logistics and money.

                                      I desperately want the LF to survive, but let's face it, it has to fit in the average worker bee's world to do it. Waredaca has the right idea of offering it concurrently with the regular HT. The Carolina Horse Park has (probably) the ideal layout for a LF but it doesn't offer one. Why????'

                                      You know I'm a perpetual Mr Pegasusmom fan and I know he'll kick some booty at the show. Wish I could be there to cheer on the team.
                                      Always be yourself. Unless you can be Batman. Then always be Batman.

                                      The Grove at Five Points


                                      • #39
                                        Originally posted by KateWooten View Post
                                        I want to do one with Po. She's qualified, we're established at the level (Novice). However, there's a critical mass effect going on. The price of the N3D is several times as much as an N for me. The reason being, that with a regular N, I go with my team to wherever we are going. There are bunches of N events within 3 hours. I share trailering, hotel, coaching... we generally have 6-8 of us at every event.

                                        For me to go to an N3D from here would mean hauling one pony alone for 7 hours. I'd either have to hire my trainer for a full weekend for one student, which is not going to happen since she's far too busy, or hire competent grooms who know what they're doing for a 3-day, or wing it alone - which is intimidating.

                                        There's also not a Huge pull for me to do N3D over N. The XC jump rules are basically the same. Po and I are well established at this level, and we're basically a career BN/N pair. She may one day do one Training. Our 'excuse' is that she's 13hh and it will break her down too quickly to try to make the distances in Stadium and for every effort on an XC course to be almost at her max jumping height <<feel free to insert incessant comments here about how Teddy O'Connor was only 14.1 and ran Rolex etc etc yadda yadda, yes, I know, and I *think* I heared that before, and yes, I know, I do have a Horse as well and can use that horse to move up etc. I'm still not pushing Po to go Training, and Lucy is not even jumping X-rails yet, so again, irrelevant at the moment).

                                        I'm not the only one. There are many of us who are career lower-level eventers for life, or who are happy at a lower level for now. And with that comes boring boring boring boring XC. If I want to jump a coffin, it has to be at 3ft 3. We are simply not allowed to anything more mind-challenging than the very very simple combinations available at N. So, what's the point ? An N3D offers more expense, some tracks and trails, but absolutely No more fun stuff than any other N.

                                        Why not, since we're already saying people need to be established at the level even to enter ... why not let us do more technical fun stuff, at the lower heights ? It would be super-fabulous. You would all have an absolute blast watching us little guys flying over 2ft 11 skinny corners and cute little mini offset trakheners. It would be an absolute screaming hoot ! Can you imagine ? The huge benefit to people like me would be that you know, we've already gone through the fear and scaredyness, the mistakes, the second-guessing, the unnerved weekends that are a big part of moving up. We've done that. We're now happy and confident over our 2ft 11 XC jumps .... and we've honestly nothing more to look forward to apart from improving our dressage. And that's it. For life. Po is now done, finished, at age 11. Wouldn't it be great to give us old ladies on off-brand horses something else to spend our money on ? We're really never going to Rolex, you know. And we have money. And we're more than happy to spend it on eventing, and lessons, and clinics .... just give us something to spend it on, and we'll be there.
                                        I'll date myself. Novice(Pre Training) and Beginner Novice (Chicken Division) used to be miniature of the "big" stuff. You did mini coffins, mini drops, mini bank complexes and mini water complexes. I can even remember one event that jumped a canoe with the girl scout seated on the end as the fence judge.

                                        Why did it change? You really need to ask??? It wasn't fair to the beginning horse and rider and there were way too many accidents. Walter Gervais, early in his riding, was a good example when his poor little quarter horse, Tom, bug eyed around the course and was dangerously overjumping because the fences were so unusual. He was jumped way out of the tack and he was just one of many. I agree it was more fun but it didn't help the sport and it didn't develop the horses well.


                                        • #40
                                          I get how BN or N can seem "boring" when one has done it for a while, but dang . . . I'd rather do Novice forever and ever than NOT EVENT. And the 3 day format IS something different, something new, something with an extra bit of "zip" to it, so if one is just overcome with Novice-level ennui but not ready for a move up, it's actually PERFECT, IMO.
                                          Click here before you buy.