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Hmmm. Jumping position observation

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  • #61
    Every ride and ever horse is different. What works for one pair at one complex is not necessarily what's best for any other pair. And runouts, refusals, and unexpected happenings screw up riders with short reins too. It happens.

    And frankly, I don't see the Olympics as the pinnacle of the sport, or showing it at it's best. I'd be ok with eventing being dropped from the Olympics.

    Comment


    • #62
      Originally posted by saje View Post
      Every ride and ever horse is different. What works for one pair at one complex is not necessarily what's best for any other pair. And runouts, refusals, and unexpected happenings screw up riders with short reins too. It happens.
      I think this is the EXACT attitude that has us getting our asses handed to us in most of the truly international competitions of the last decade or so. "We are special and our horses are the exception," then we brush our failures off as "unlucky."

      I don't care what sport we're talking about if you want to be competitive with the best in the world you study the techniques of the very best riders in the world. If you'd watch much of WPF you'd know it is the exception when he doesn't recover slipped reins in the first stride or two regardless of what's coming next. If you watch U.S. riders it is a rarity to see it EVER happen in the first two strides. WPF wipes the floor with us. You think that's a coincidence?

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      • #63
        Originally posted by subk View Post
        The long reins are just great until something unexpected happens. Funny how our medal hopes have been dashed over the last decade or so because riders weren't prepared for those funny unexpected happenings. Down bank at the Olympics anyone?

        Here is the competition. If we aren't expecting/encouraging our riders to ride at this level of accomplishment then we're hasbeens and/or wannabes. One water complex, with 2 drops and 2 rein adjustments in less than 9 seconds:

        http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7eRAHXLa6jM

        Personally, I think our US riders CAN be this good--but the work to get there starts now, not on the world stage.
        The striking difference between WFP in that video and the majority of the riders in the SP video is how positively forward he is riding. Our riders (and again, not all) tend to pick their way through these combinations resulting in hung legs and ugly fences. WFP just stays slightly behind the motion and pushes forward and makes it look effortless.

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        • #64
          Originally posted by subk View Post
          WPF wipes the floor with us. You think that's a coincidence?
          Okay. THAT is one of the best quotes ever! And WFP can wipe the floor with me anytime

          (Sorry, was that my inappropriate outside voice again? I have GOT to get that fixed)
          Always be yourself. Unless you can be Batman. Then always be Batman.

          The Grove at Five Points

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          • #65
            Phillip Dutton is THE greatest event rider in this country, and I try to emulate him as much as a fat retread eventer can on their own Beginner Novice horses. Everyday.
            I call "troll".
            Hmmm.
            Proud & Permanent Student Of The Long Road
            Read me: EN (http://eventingnation.com/author/annemarch/) and HJU (http://horsejunkiesunited.com/author/holly-covey/)

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            • #66
              [QUOTE=monstrpony;6900277]I'm committing a cardinal sin here, hopefully I'll be forgiven. This is based ONLY on photographs I've seen recently, I've not been to watch any upper level events and have seen only a few videos. And I'm not an equitation expert, by any means. But I have the impression that the upper level guys who have adopted the more upright galloping position seem to be losing their form over the jumps. I noticed one rider who I otherwise admire, who looked a little like me, back in my pre-training days, over a few jumps. And there's a pic on the cover of a national publication recently that I thought was, well, embarrassing, given that the sport isn't water-skiing.

              Anyone else who is watching this in real life see the same thing? Or, hopefully, not? I'm truly hoping it's just unfortunate coincidence.from Dennys' latest book
              Real Event Riders (RERs) tend to be "get it done" riders, more than "pretty" riders, if the horse, the physics, and the situation so require.




              breeder of Mercury!

              remember to enjoy the moment, and take a moment to enjoy and give God the glory for these wonderful horses in our lives.BECAUSE: LIFE is What Happens While Making Other Plans

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              • #67
                I think the Germans would say that Carol's photo is not the way to ride a drop/downhill. Per the quote in my spinoff thread.
                "I'm a lumberjack, and I'm okay."
                Thread killer Extraordinaire

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                • #68
                  I disagree. *I* think Kim Severson is the greatest current event rider, but she just doesn't have PD's horses.
                  "I'm a lumberjack, and I'm okay."
                  Thread killer Extraordinaire

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                  • Original Poster

                    #69
                    I'm really sorry I used the word "equitation" in the opening post, because I think people are interpreting it to mean I expect riders to be "pretty" in the show-ring sense. No. I would like to see them in the middle of their horse, not interfering, being soft with their reins in the air (no distortion of the horse's mouth, face, head, neck). I don't expect them to hold a classic hunt picture position over all fences, but I don't like to see their upper body whiplash back and forth, either. Nor should they be sitting in the back of their saddle without a good reason.

                    The picture that Carol linked to is not "pretty" but the rider isn't in the horse's way, either. Or at least is making a desperate effort not to be in the horse's way.

                    Nor was this thread meant in any way to be a criticism of Phillip Dutton. I admire the heck out of him, he's an admirable horseman and a very effective rider, even if his style is "non-traditional". But I DO wonder if others who have adopted (or attempted to adopt) this style have not lost some of their ability to do the best job for their horses over the fences (I'm not going to argue how the style affects galloping; I don't think, with today's format, that that is as big of a deal, thought it makes me sad). It was actually watching another rider that motivated this thread; it was just the pic on the Chron cover that made me think maybe it wasn't just in my imagination. Because while it may be effective riding (well, it's PD, it probably IS effective riding) it is not "pretty" even in the sense I described above; and I'm willing to grant that perhaps this horse can't be ridden with "pretty".

                    (note that the quotation in Carol's post above should end right before "from Denny's latest book ... ")
                    "One person's cowboy is another person's blooming idiot" -- katarine

                    Spay and neuter. Please.

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                    • #70
                      Monstrpony I disagree that the rider is not in the way. The rider mistakenly is leaning TOO far back, and the horse does not have a soft contact with the mouth. I don't think Lucinda Green or PD would be happy with this at all. Lucinda's first point would be slip the reins more if you end up here! If the horse disappeared underneath her she'd be on her butt and back. She is getting it done, yes, but it is not bio-mechanically sound. When she lands, because of physics, I would tend to think she's going to catapult forward if nothing else because of the death grip on the reins and when the horse lands and its head comes up the contact will disappear. She's going to be loose all over that horse's back in the next stride.

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                      • Original Poster

                        #71
                        These things are relative

                        We've all been in that spot where things go wrong and you do the best you can; that's what I see in the pic of the grey over the drop. I don't expect a picture of that kind of thing to be great, but she IS trying to do the best under the circumstances.

                        I (that's me, my opinion) can't say the same for the pic of PD on the cover of the Chron. I cannot see a reason for that much distortion of the head and neck--far more than of the grey--when the horse is making that big of an effort. Okay, he's preparing for a turn--but do you think that horse has the use of his head and neck in that jump? Is the rider truly in the middle of the horse's balance? I would hope for better of Phillip Dutton.
                        "One person's cowboy is another person's blooming idiot" -- katarine

                        Spay and neuter. Please.

                        Comment


                        • #72
                          Originally posted by retreadeventer View Post
                          Phillip Dutton is THE greatest event rider in this country, and I try to emulate him as much as a fat retread eventer can on their own Beginner Novice horses. Everyday.
                          I call "troll".
                          Hmmm.
                          I disagree.... and if that is true then the US is in trouble...!
                          Boss Mare Eventing Blog
                          https://www.youtube.com/user/jealoushe

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                          • #73
                            [QUOTE=Carol Ames;6906611]
                            Originally posted by monstrpony View Post
                            ....from Dennys' latest book
                            Real Event Riders (RERs) tend to be "get it done" riders, more than "pretty" riders, if the horse, the physics, and the situation so require.




                            It will be interesting to see if much changes in the future now that DOC is chef, regarding training strategeries. I have to say as a rider and active competitor I like Carol's quote from Denny's book. My goals are to be safe and effective on XC. As far as pretty? If I get those two done I really don't care, I mean sure, I would like to be pretty. It's just a bitch getting the first two done sometimes, even at the lower levels.

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                            • #74
                              Originally posted by retreadeventer View Post
                              Phillip Dutton is THE greatest event rider in this country, and I try to emulate him as much as a fat retread eventer can on their own Beginner Novice horses. Everyday.
                              I call "troll".
                              Hmmm.
                              You know, a google image search comes up with a whole lot of photos where he looks behind the motion. Really behind. It clearly works for him, but his riding style is not something to be emulated. Googling other top riders certainly comes up with some ugly pics, but most of them are in much better balance in most of the pics. I'll step out on a limb and suggest that PD rides behind the motion in general rather than staying in balance with the horse. When the rider's center of gravity looks to be a foot behind the horse's, I can't imagine that the horse is not impaired in some way. With Phillip it's not enough to hinder performance, but I bet any of us smurfs would seriously be f-ing up our horses.

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                              • #75
                                I think that most riders are doing the best they can under the circumstance, except when they aren't. There are many professionals who think they know it all, and those are the ones that bother me the most. I have plenty of bad photos, you can bet I HATE them, and do my best to hide them. I do study them and I work on my faults. What floors me is how professionals will have terrible photos, horse inverted, riding glaringly wrong in position, as their web page photo.

                                I think its less of a sin to be left behind IF you release the reins, than get in front, especially cross country. However, that can be taken to an extreme, and although I agree that the woman in the picture is trying NOT to be in the way, she's wrong in how she's doing it and she's even more in the way because someone taught her to lean back like that, it is habituated.

                                We should not take photos of PD and the like and try at all to emulate. He has a personal style that works for him, he has wonderful sponsors, and he has some issues keeping up when he goes across the pond. I cannot understand why USEA is trying to get the whole country to gallop around standing up.

                                We are responsible to balance ourselves separate of the reins so our horses can do their job. I don't care how each individual does it, but I do care that it makes more sense to have a common standard of riding based on using the human body and its angles to support itself comfortably for both horse and rider. Any riding style emulated that has locked joints and stiffness is not healthy for horse or rider in the long term.

                                I think it is best to emulate correct riding, aspire to have smooth forward flowing xc rounds as a standard. Do you have to "git 'er done" sometimes? Of course, but if we keep working toward correct, and hold to a higher standard, maybe we'll be kicking butt on both sides of the pond again. And we'll make sure riders who are quiet and effective like Kim Severson, Becky Holder, Sharon White, Sinead Halpin will have good rides.

                                Comment

                                • Original Poster

                                  #76
                                  Well said, gardenie.
                                  "One person's cowboy is another person's blooming idiot" -- katarine

                                  Spay and neuter. Please.

                                  Comment

                                  • Original Poster

                                    #77
                                    Originally posted by retreadeventer View Post
                                    I call "troll".
                                    Hmmm.
                                    Just caught this. Not a troll, not meant to be a troll. Really, I was just curious if anyone else had noticed this about a certain galloping style. It was NEVER about PD until others made it about PD; he's not the only one who rides that way. And I've said several times that I'm fine with the fact that most have not observed this. Clearly, I was wrong in my observation, and I have no problem saying that.

                                    But, hey--8,317 posts and my first time being called a troll! Should I be flattered?
                                    Last edited by monstrpony; Mar. 28, 2013, 09:18 PM.
                                    "One person's cowboy is another person's blooming idiot" -- katarine

                                    Spay and neuter. Please.

                                    Comment


                                    • #78
                                      getting left, getting ahead, balancing on the reins, and all manner of odd/dangerous positions = 'style' at the upper levels and for the lower levels it = bad riding.



                                      A fun exercise is to look at google images of one rider and then open another tab in your browser and look at the google images of a different rider.

                                      It's fun to make comparisons, especially when both riders are going over the same jump.

                                      I must say I would love to ride like William Fox Pitt. He rarely barfs it over a fence.

                                      Comment


                                      • #79
                                        Going out on a limb here.
                                        Watched the video of JMP at Training levels at SPII. Even at 70+, with a hip replacement, etc, etc his basics are still there. Now go look at pictures of him on XC. Then of any of the US team riders during the LF days. There is your git r done equitation.
                                        I do agree with the poster who stated the current format features the rider over the horse. With the LF, mortals were normally limited to 2 horses. Of course, Bruce D had to qualify and ride 4 horses at the 1988 Rolex. Of the first 2, one tied up and was retired and the other fell with Bruce, breaking his ribs. Bruce then rode the last two, placing IIRC first and second or third. In a long format, in a proper galloping position.
                                        "Never do anything that you have to explain twice to the paramedics."
                                        Courtesy my cousin Tim

                                        Comment


                                        • #80
                                          Originally posted by Karosel View Post
                                          getting left, getting ahead, balancing on the reins, and all manner of odd/dangerous positions = 'style' at the upper levels and for the lower levels it = bad riding.



                                          A fun exercise is to look at google images of one rider and then open another tab in your browser and look at the google images of a different rider.

                                          It's fun to make comparisons, especially when both riders are going over the same jump.

                                          I must say I would love to ride like William Fox Pitt. He rarely barfs it over a fence.
                                          Also its interesting to look at photos of a rider on a certain horse, then go look at youtube videos, you can get quite different impressions.

                                          And it can even depend on what horse on what day - take this vid of Mark Todd going round Badminton in 2011. Now he's a brilliant rider, and he won, but he was getting a very tired young horse round that day and it showed a bit (its why I remember, its interesting to watch!)

                                          http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B7t87jRjkiw

                                          Chicken wings anyone? But always effective, well balanced and allowing the horse to go. But far from ideal. However look at other videos and photos and he's not bad at all.

                                          Not all upper level riders are perfect! They all have their own little habits, good and bad, and thats why they keep taking instruction and learning from each other, so they can continually get better. For all we know, PD might also be cringing at that particular pic and wishing it hadn't been used!

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