• Welcome to the Chronicle Forums.
    Please complete your profile. The forums and the rest of www.chronofhorse.com has single sign-in, so your log in information for one will automatically work for the other. Disclaimer: The opinions expressed here are the views of the individual and do not necessarily reflect the views and opinions of The Chronicle of the Horse.

Announcement

Collapse

Forum rules and no-advertising policy

As a participant on this forum, it is your responsibility to know and follow our rules. Please read this message in its entirety.

Board Rules

1. You’re responsible for what you say.
As outlined in Section 230 of the Communications Decency Act, The Chronicle of the Horse and its affiliates, as well Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd., the developers of vBulletin, are not legally responsible for statements made in the forums.

This is a public forum viewed by a wide spectrum of people, so please be mindful of what you say and who might be reading it—details of personal disputes are likely better handled privately. While posters are legally responsible for their statements, the moderators may in their discretion remove or edit posts that violate these rules. Users have the ability to modify or delete their own messages after posting, but administrators generally will not delete posts, threads or accounts upon request.

Outright inflammatory, vulgar, harassing, malicious or otherwise inappropriate statements and criminal charges unsubstantiated by a reputable news source or legal documentation will not be tolerated and will be dealt with at the discretion of the moderators.

2. Conversations in horse-related forums should be horse-related.
The forums are a wonderful source of information and support for members of the horse community. While it’s understandably tempting to share information or search for input on other topics upon which members might have a similar level of knowledge, members must maintain the focus on horses.

3. Keep conversations productive, on topic and civil.
Discussion and disagreement are inevitable and encouraged; personal insults, diatribes and sniping comments are unproductive and unacceptable. Whether a subject is light-hearted or serious, keep posts focused on the current topic and of general interest to other participants of that thread. Utilize the private message feature or personal email where appropriate to address side topics or personal issues not related to the topic at large.

4. No advertising in the discussion forums.
Posts in the discussion forums directly or indirectly advertising horses, jobs, items or services for sale or wanted will be removed at the discretion of the moderators. Use of the private messaging feature or email addresses obtained through users’ profiles for unsolicited advertising is not permitted.

Company representatives may participate in discussions and answer questions about their products or services, or suggest their products on recent threads if they fulfill the criteria of a query. False "testimonials" provided by company affiliates posing as general consumers are not appropriate, and self-promotion of sales, ad campaigns, etc. through the discussion forums is not allowed.

Paid advertising is available on our classifieds site and through the purchase of banner ads. The tightly monitored Giveaways forum permits free listings of genuinely free horses and items available or wanted (on a limited basis). Items offered for trade are not allowed.

Advertising Policy Specifics
When in doubt of whether something you want to post constitutes advertising, please contact a moderator privately in advance for further clarification. Refer to the following points for general guidelines:

Horses – Only general discussion about the buying, leasing, selling and pricing of horses is permitted. If the post contains, or links to, the type of specific information typically found in a sales or wanted ad, and it’s related to a horse for sale, regardless of who’s selling it, it doesn’t belong in the discussion forums.

Stallions – Board members may ask for suggestions on breeding stallion recommendations. Stallion owners may reply to such queries by suggesting their own stallions, only if their horse fits the specific criteria of the original poster. Excessive promotion of a stallion by its owner or related parties is not permitted and will be addressed at the discretion of the moderators.

Services – Members may use the forums to ask for general recommendations of trainers, barns, shippers, farriers, etc., and other members may answer those requests by suggesting themselves or their company, if their services fulfill the specific criteria of the original post. Members may not solicit other members for business if it is not in response to a direct, genuine query.

Products – While members may ask for general opinions and suggestions on equipment, trailers, trucks, etc., they may not list the specific attributes for which they are in the market, as such posts serve as wanted ads.

Event Announcements – Members may post one notification of an upcoming event that may be of interest to fellow members, if the original poster does not benefit financially from the event. Such threads may not be “bumped” excessively. Premium members may post their own notices in the Event Announcements forum.

Charities/Rescues – Announcements for charitable or fundraising events can only be made for 501(c)(3) tax-exempt organizations. Special exceptions may be made, at the moderators’ discretion and direction, for board-related events or fundraising activities in extraordinary circumstances.

Occasional posts regarding horses available for adoption through IRS-registered horse rescue or placement programs are permitted in the appropriate forums, but these threads may be limited at the discretion of the moderators. Individuals may not advertise or make announcements for horses in need of rescue, placement or adoption unless the horse is available through a recognized rescue or placement agency or government-run entity or the thread fits the criteria for and is located in the Giveaways forum.

5. Do not post copyrighted photographs unless you have purchased that photo and have permission to do so.

6. Respect other members.
As members are often passionate about their beliefs and intentions can easily be misinterpreted in this type of environment, try to explore or resolve the inevitable disagreements that arise in the course of threads calmly and rationally.

If you see a post that you feel violates the rules of the board, please click the “alert” button (exclamation point inside of a triangle) in the bottom left corner of the post, which will alert ONLY the moderators to the post in question. They will then take whatever action, or no action, as deemed appropriate for the situation at their discretion. Do not air grievances regarding other posters or the moderators in the discussion forums.

Please be advised that adding another user to your “Ignore” list via your User Control Panel can be a useful tactic, which blocks posts and private messages by members whose commentary you’d rather avoid reading.

7. We have the right to reproduce statements made in the forums.
The Chronicle of the Horse may copy, quote, link to or otherwise reproduce posts, or portions of posts, in print or online for advertising or editorial purposes, if attributed to their original authors, and by posting in this forum, you hereby grant to The Chronicle of the Horse a perpetual, non-exclusive license under copyright and other rights, to do so.

8. We reserve the right to enforce and amend the rules.
The moderators may delete, edit, move or close any post or thread at any time, or refrain from doing any of the foregoing, in their discretion, and may suspend or revoke a user’s membership privileges at any time to maintain adherence to the rules and the general spirit of the forum. These rules may be amended at any time to address the current needs of the board.

Please see our full Terms of Service and Privacy Policy for more information.

Thanks for being a part of the COTH forums!

(Revised 1/26/16)
See more
See less

What degree of price off for horse out of shape?

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • What degree of price off for horse out of shape?

    I have a client who for financial reasons has to sell her horse. She had him in training and the plan was for him to compete last fall. He was ready to go, but then life intervened, and she had to take him out of training. Things have not improved, and now he needs to find a new home.

    I'm trying to figure out how to price him. I know what he's worth fit, I'm not sure what he's worth fat, hairy and out of work since November. 10% less? 50% less?
    Phoenix Farm ~ Breeding-Training-Sales
    Eventing, Dressage, Young Horses
    www.phoenixsporthorses.com
    Check out my new blog: http://califcountrymom.blogspot.com

  • #2
    Well, I am sort of thinking about this right now, as a friend called me today about a nice older packer sort and he is in the same sort of not-quite-ready-to-compete-boat. Albeit much lower level than a Fair Hill horse...more on the Sawmill Field for this one!

    I am thinking that one would take the number of months it would take to get him fit to compete at his confirmed level. Is he totally uut of shape, off for six months or more, and was competing comfortably at Intermediate -- then it might take how many months -- 3? 6? to get him ready to compete again (provided all sound of course). I think training/board might cost $1k a month, so just a round figure might be taking off $3k to $6k. That's a rough guesstimate -- see how that figures in your percentages.

    But depending upon how desperate the seller is, might even take more off.
    Proud & Permanent Student Of The Long Road
    Read me: EN (http://eventingnation.com/author/annemarch/) and HJU (http://horsejunkiesunited.com/author/holly-covey/)

    Comment


    • #3
      I think it's not so much the readiness to compete as the inability to try the horse properly and the fear that it's been sitting because something is wrong with it (which will be reinforced if you price it too cheaply.) Can she put him back in training for a month or two? Make a deal with someone?

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Highflyer View Post
        I think it's not so much the readiness to compete as the inability to try the horse properly and the fear that it's been sitting because something is wrong with it (which will be reinforced if you price it too cheaply.) Can she put him back in training for a month or two? Make a deal with someone?

        I agree with this.. When I was shopping, my fear with an out of shape horse was how they may or may not handle getting/being in shape. Not sure of their physical readiness and ability, and you don't get to try the horse to their potential that they're being marketed as. Definitely more than 10% off in my mind, the buyer is taking more of a risk than buying a comparable horse that's already going.

        Comment


        • #5
          Has the horse ever competed? Or was he just getting prepped to go to his first show? Without a competition record, he's not just "out of fitness" he's really just a out of shape prospect. The lack of a show record takes more off your price than the lack of fitness (IMO).

          Comment


          • #6
            I would say at least 25% - was he for sale before she took him out of training? And if so, was there any interest at that price? So many factors - how hard is he to put back to work? Some horses need a lot more time to get fit again, or regain their composure under saddle than others. Maybe he's all hairy and a bit fat, but if he can get a bath and a haircut and strut his stuff for 20 minutes for a prospective buyer it will be less of a stretch for someone to see his potential. Also if he had a good competition record and videos of him doing well that will make it easier too.

            Comment

            • Original Poster

              #7
              Thanks for the replies so far. I'm trying to be a bit vague, but to answer questions, he should be pretty easy to fit back up, and has the ultimate point and shoot personality. I had a lease worked out for him (unfortunately the potential leasor then got laid off) and we pulled him out of the field and did 20 minutes of flatwork after 6 weeks of not being touched. He has shown at several local CTs and schooling things, and done well, but hasn't done a rated horse trial.

              What do you think about offering a lease to purchase type of agreement? Maybe 1st month as a free lease/trial , after that a paid lease with monies applicable to purchase price? Put a time limit on the purchase, say six months?
              Phoenix Farm ~ Breeding-Training-Sales
              Eventing, Dressage, Young Horses
              www.phoenixsporthorses.com
              Check out my new blog: http://califcountrymom.blogspot.com

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by PhoenixFarm View Post
                Thanks for the replies so far. I'm trying to be a bit vague, but to answer questions, he should be pretty easy to fit back up, and has the ultimate point and shoot personality. I had a lease worked out for him (unfortunately the potential leasor then got laid off) and we pulled him out of the field and did 20 minutes of flatwork after 6 weeks of not being touched. He has shown at several local CTs and schooling things, and done well, but hasn't done a rated horse trial.

                What do you think about offering a lease to purchase type of agreement? Maybe 1st month as a free lease/trial , after that a paid lease with monies applicable to purchase price? Put a time limit on the purchase, say six months?
                I think that is a good and generous deal, if it works out for the seller, financially (ie, they aren't depending on the sale of the horse for much needed cash). You'll just have to do some thinking on how all the different scenarios will play out (what if they decide 3 months they don't want the horse? What if the horse gets hurt? What if they end up unable to carry through for financial reasons? And I'm sure many others!).
                Amanda

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Highflyer View Post
                  I think it's not so much the readiness to compete as the inability to try the horse properly and the fear that it's been sitting because something is wrong with it (which will be reinforced if you price it too cheaply.) Can she put him back in training for a month or two? Make a deal with someone?
                  This, exactly. As someone who will be looking for a horse over the next year, my biggest fear is taking a chance on something out of work only because soundness is a big deal to me. I want to know the horse can hold up to a regular work schedule.

                  I would take a chance on a horse out of work if the seller offered a lease arrangement-- longer than a month, say 3-6 months-- so I knew there wasn't anything odd hiding. I know buying horses is a risk, but as someone who has taken chances on horses that were deemed "sound" but out of work, only to bring them back to work and find they were actually quite lame.... with a nice horse out of work, a lease to purchase option might be more appealing to buyers.
                  We couldn't all be cowboys, so some of us are clowns.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    I guess I wouldn't worry about it. The horse has not competed at any recognized level, only done CTs and schooling shows. He'll probably sell to that market. Price the horse for the here and now of what he is worth, not what he might be in the future. If he has a good temperament, then he should find a buyer based on what he is now. I would price according to what other horses of similar age, size, and experience are going for in my area. I always leave my pricing with a date, so that if something changes like more training, more show results, etc. then I can increase the price if need be.

                    I would also go for an outright sale versus the lease/purchase installment sale deal. There are so many moving parts in the latter type of contract, including the need for insurance, the chance of injury, the chance of default, etc. I would simplify the sale as much as possible.
                    Where Fjeral Norwegian Fjords Rule
                    http://www.ironwood-farm.com

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by PhoenixFarm View Post
                      Thanks for the replies so far. I'm trying to be a bit vague, but to answer questions, he should be pretty easy to fit back up, and has the ultimate point and shoot personality.
                      Then this is exactly what the owner needs to do if she wants top dollar - having chosen to give the horse time off (not a bad thing), I'd expect to spend several weeks getting him jumping fit again ...
                      what I wouldn't do is risk injury by showing him to buyers at his previous level (not implying you did this but I've seen a number of owners who are desperate to sell do so).

                      What do you think about offering a lease to purchase type of agreement? Maybe 1st month as a free lease/trial , after that a paid lease with monies applicable to purchase price? Put a time limit on the purchase, say six months?
                      If this horse is advertised as jumping 3', I'd want a "free lease/trial" month to flat him, then at least a 2nd month to get him jumping fit - at this point, I've done all the work, so then an equivalent amount of time to enjoy him (in this example, further 2 months "free" lease): of course now I've invested minimum 4K into this horse so I still expect to get some benefit re his sale price (as per initial contract).
                      There's also the possibility that I realize horse & I are not really suited, so now owner gets back a nicely fitted up horse that she will be able to sell for more $$

                      If I'm buying the horse "as is" I'd expect significant price reduction, but there's always a buyer that won't

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        A lot depends on what level you are talking about.

                        For instance, I absolutely would not look at a Prelim or above horse tht was not demonstrably sound under Prelim level work/condition.

                        Novice and below, if it came from a reputable barn (like yours) with assurances that the horse had been sound when competing (backed up with permission to ask the vet), and was currently sound, I wouldn't be so concerned.

                        The second thing that would be of concern, is the ability see that the horse is capable of what is advertised. Some horses keep themselves fitter than others.

                        If this is a BN horse, it needs to be fit enough for a half hour ride, including a half dozen jumps up to BN height, and then, on another day, a cross coutry school of a half dozen jumps. You can take lots of breaks if needed.

                        I know some horses that can do that straight out of a field, and others that need a couple of weeks of light work to get to that point.

                        I think it is more a question of how much longer it will yake to sell than the price. I think it would be worth investing a couple of month's board in getting the horse fit, and then mrketing at the original price.

                        I think if you reduce the price by the same amount (2 months board) it will take you more than 2 month longer to sell.

                        ETA
                        I wouldn't do a free lease. If I were the buyer in a case like that, I would be tempted to work the horse as hard as possible for that month, to find out if there were any holes in the soundness or performance that were disguised by being out of shape. What do you do if the horse goes lame in that trial period? Or turns out to be hotter than the buyer can handle, and someone gets hurt?
                        Janet

                        chief feeder and mucker for Music, Spy, Belle and Tiara. Someone else is now feeding and mucking for Chief and Brain (both foxhunting now).

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Janet View Post
                          If I were the buyer in a case like that, I would be tempted to work the horse as hard as possible for that month, to find out if there were any holes in the soundness or performance that were disguised by being out of shape.
                          This is why trials are so fracking scary
                          - anyone that would do this is no horseman

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by alto View Post
                            This is why trials are so fracking scary
                            - anyone that would do this is no horseman
                            Absolutely.
                            Proud & Permanent Student Of The Long Road
                            Read me: EN (http://eventingnation.com/author/annemarch/) and HJU (http://horsejunkiesunited.com/author/holly-covey/)

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by normandy_shores View Post
                              I agree with this.. When I was shopping, my fear with an out of shape horse was how they may or may not handle getting/being in shape. Not sure of their physical readiness and ability, and you don't get to try the horse to their potential that they're being marketed as. Definitely more than 10% off in my mind, the buyer is taking more of a risk than buying a comparable horse that's already going.
                              Yes, what normandy_shoes said. I'm horse shopping now and it always worries me when people say that the horse CAN do such and such, but isn't doing it now. I am very skeptical that the horse can actually do the thing they're claiming it can do. Even though you're not going to inflate his level of skill or experience, I think most buyers will assume that's what's happening or that he has an undisclosed soundness/health issue that will cost them hundreds of dollars to discover.

                              Comment

                              Working...
                              X