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Can ANY horse have that gorgeous, toe flipping extended trot?

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  • dressage done correctly builds a beautiful athlete. done badly it doesn't .

    dressage is basically physical therapy for horses - it turns any horse =into the best horse they can be - as long as it is done correctly.

    so, yes, it is relevant and needed. The problem is that it is very hard to find a competent trainer and it takes years to learn to train correctly and a lifetime to master it......
    Last edited by mbm; Feb. 18, 2013, 11:45 AM.

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    • Agreed mbm. I have noted before that my dressage guru calls dressage physical therapy for horses under saddle.

      And our dressage training makes our horses that much more adjustable on XC. They can compress their stride while keeping impulsion and power in the hind end. Maybe back in the day it wasn't needed so much, but IIRC, Jack LeGoff's focus on dressage is part of what made the US an eventing powerhouse in his time.

      Has it become a parody of itself? Sometimes, unfortunately. But generally I think that thoughtful dressage is a force for good.
      Last edited by frugalannie; Feb. 18, 2013, 10:16 AM. Reason: typo
      They don't call me frugal for nothing.
      Proud and achy member of the Eventing Grannies clique.

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      • Originally posted by ideayoda View Post
        Not at all purpl...... the purely flat riders do not have the amount of ammunition to change their horse's postures as easily...and they do not understand the implications of closing/holding a horse (to a fence) in the same way a jump rider does. (Yet what do I see before a dressage ride at an event: lower/rounder/lower/rounder...who would say that if they want to jump clean. Don't copy the flat riders (unless you want to do a rotational).
        I don't know about that.... One of the best flat riders in the world is also one of the best eventers in the world....

        Ingrid Klimke.... And her horses are usually leading after the dressage in eventing....

        http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HMuGueqs8F0

        and one of her Videos.... Sorry German again.... But really behind her Dressagepart is the same idea as in my first video..... But I think the Art is, to do the right thing at the right moment...
        When I read all your threads you seem to go for certain things... Like for you guys German school is riding forward (which of course it is...) but the secret (which makes it so tricky) is to do the right thing at the right time... Like this stretching.... If you let your horse stretch all the time you might loose the movement over the back.... A stretched horse which is not moving forward over the back is certainly not right....
        So you need to put it all together...... Then it will work whether for eventing or for dressage or even for jumping (we just took one of our young dressage horses to a very good jumping rider to get it started with jumps.... He is thrilled with this horse, because he loves the foundation....
        https://www.facebook.com/Luckyacresfarm
        https://www.facebook.com/Ulrike-Bsch...4373849955364/

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        • This is a great discussion. Just throwing some more pics out there of the same ride as photo #3 in my 'series' I posted previously. In any ride I ride up down short long on the SAME soft contact.

          On a note to purp~ I'm not sure if working low-deep-round really helps Pie...it sends him on FH and encourages the curling/balling up that we've worked so hard to get away from & is locked in his memory. He still reverts to it whenever he gets tense or worried about something. He is finally reaching out to the bit and lengthening his neck from the base. I work with 2 different dressage trainers who both have had the same approach to him. He is naturally short strided in the trot and tight in his hq~ especially when these photos were taken a yr ago. I don't have any good recent pics unfortunately. He is finally starting to develop more swing, but he will never have a huge trot.

          stretch down
          http://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphoto...47981474_n.jpg

          more stretch
          http://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphoto...64796210_n.jpg

          long frame
          http://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphoto...17214437_n.jpg

          more 'up & open' frame
          http://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphoto...63878350_o.jpg
          Founder & President, Dapplebay, Inc.
          Creative Director, Equestrian Culture Magazine
          Take us to print!

          Comment


          • Ok. Sorry about the offended post. Now that I understand Idea's point... I didn't read the entire blog and what I saw, well, I thought she was accusing some posters of something henious


            Now that I am no longer offended, Manni01, the videos that you have posted comport with my experience. Ingrid Klimke is fabulous btw. I have to say, on my end, I am not as theroretcial as many on this thread. I have read some of the ODG books, but going forward is the foundation of what I do with horses.

            Originally posted by Manni01 View Post

            But I think the Art is, to do the right thing at the right moment...
            When I read all your threads you seem to go for certain things... Like for you guys German school is riding forward (which of course it is...) but the secret (which makes it so tricky) is to do the right thing at the right time... Like this stretching.... If you let your horse stretch all the time you might loose the movement over the back.... A stretched horse which is not moving forward over the back is certainly not right....
            I agree with this very much. I also thought it was interesting, watching some of the young horses, - and BTW the first young horse in the Ingrid Klimke video is exactly what I was talking about, - how having higher set neck makes some of this much easier. I don't see many young, green, quality dressage horses in my world.
            Unrepentant carb eater

            Comment


            • Originally posted by frugalannie View Post
              Agreed mbm. I have noted before that my dressage guru calls dressage physical therapy for horses under saddle.

              And our dressage training makes our horses that much more adjustable on XC. They can compress their stride while keeping impulsion and power in the hind end. Maybe back in the day it wasn't needed so much, but IIRC, Jack LeGoff's focus on dressage is part of what made the US an eventing powerhouse in his time.

              Has it become a parody of itself? Sometimes, unfortunately. But generally I think that thoughtful dressage is a force for good.
              But see, this is where I have diverted. If there isn't a problem to begin with, how is it physical therapy? How is it physical therapy when the ongoing drilling/positioning leads to injury, even with the revered "master's" horses?

              I agree with ideayoda that round and deep isn't where you want to be on XC. Moving from behind with neck in a natural "up" position with throatlach open can be trained without ever stepping into a dressage ring.

              Like everything it has evolved/mutated, and is far from its original purpose. Several years ago the Chronicle did a great story comparing modern dressage to classical dressage, including current (at the time) conformation photographs of a grand prix horse from each "school." The classical horse showed a much more naturally developed, functional musculature. You could probably compare it to the difference between a CrossFit/functional fitness athlete (but not the cultish/joint pounding sort) and a hardcore body builder. Theoretically one is better conditioned for a barrage of challenges (and physically stronger), while the other is over-developed and sometimes incapable of bending down to tie their shoes.

              We ask our horses to put their bodies in positions they seldom assume at liberty and, oh yeah, hold it there for an hour. I can do a backbend, but if I did it repeatedly for an hour, I'm fairly certain I'd breaker sooner rather than later.
              When blood is the beverage of choice, the sharpest fangs feed first.

              Comment


              • I love the videos...but my horse is sooo not that fancy!! So it is hard for me to compare....this thread was about average moving horses developing a bigger trot.
                Founder & President, Dapplebay, Inc.
                Creative Director, Equestrian Culture Magazine
                Take us to print!

                Comment


                • If i may be so bold to respond for Ideayoda -

                  I believe she was saying that folks that jump and go XC (ie folks like Ingrid) have more tools and have a better understanding of those various tools than folks who only do flat work.

                  Ingrid is the *perfect* example of good correct riding that utilizes various tools to accomplish the work.

                  also fwiw, i think it is awesome that you are responding on this post - I love reading training info from the german perspective as it is what i am learning so i crave info !

                  The way to a beautiful topline/neck carriage is thru the hind legs and appropriate school work...
                  Originally posted by Manni01 View Post
                  I don't know about that.... One of the best flat riders in the world is also one of the best eventers in the world....

                  Ingrid Klimke.... And her horses are usually leading after the dressage in eventing....

                  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HMuGueqs8F0

                  and one of her Videos.... Sorry German again.... But really behind her Dressagepart is the same idea as in my first video..... But I think the Art is, to do the right thing at the right moment...
                  When I read all your threads you seem to go for certain things... Like for you guys German school is riding forward (which of course it is...) but the secret (which makes it so tricky) is to do the right thing at the right time... Like this stretching.... If you let your horse stretch all the time you might loose the movement over the back.... A stretched horse which is not moving forward over the back is certainly not right....
                  So you need to put it all together...... Then it will work whether for eventing or for dressage or even for jumping (we just took one of our young dressage horses to a very good jumping rider to get it started with jumps.... He is thrilled with this horse, because he loves the foundation....

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by leahandpie View Post
                    I love the videos...but my horse is sooo not that fancy!! So it is hard for me to compare....this thread was about average moving horses developing a bigger trot.
                    I have the most average mover in the world - a 15h Connemara pony. I have done 99% the work myself while taking lessons from my trainer....and over the last year + he has changed so much! I am not ready yet to put vids up of him, but suffice to say he went from a non forward shuffly "pony" to a forward little powerhouse in the making.... his trot still needs work, but given the trot in the most malleable my trainer says not to worry. His canter is going to be really good ....

                    I am getting to see a transformation right before my eyes. so that is why i keep saying get a GOOD trainer to help you. ANY sound and decent conformed horse can be trained to be the best they can be... and that is usually far better than the owner might think !

                    spend time looking for a very good trainer - one who *can* bring out teh best in horses..... it is so cool when you can see it happen

                    Comment


                    • Oh I know...with the help of good trainers we have made SO much progress it's awesome. I know he's got way more in him...but for the OP of this thread...seeing big fancy moving WB's ridden by Ingrid Klimke might not be the most helpful. At least it isn't for me...videos like the ones from the Racehorse Retraining project (posted earlier on thread) and the ones of Purp's young horse(s) are much more helpful.

                      Many of these posts are getting so idealistic...posting videos/photos from the internet and not of themselves/their own horses............... Just sayin'.
                      Founder & President, Dapplebay, Inc.
                      Creative Director, Equestrian Culture Magazine
                      Take us to print!

                      Comment


                      • idealistic? learning from those that do is best is a good way to learn i would much rather learn from Ingrid than the average ammie ...

                        in any case - if all folks take from the vids posted is the forward/supple/balance and types and usage of arena figures - it is worth it.

                        I am enthusiastic about training because i get to see what it does - every day. it is just so cool!

                        Comment


                        • Again I find myself agreeing with mbm.

                          Robby, no horse or rider is naturally completely straight and strong. All of us and all of our horses have musculo-skeletal imbalances and resulting weaknesses. Maybe there was an injury years ago and there was compensation until that became the norm. Maybe there was a slight conformational imbalance. Maybe the horse raced. There can be many reasons. If our horses weren't being asked to carry us on their backs, and were outside whenever they wanted to be these things might not be an issue.

                          But we have this desire to ride them and ask them to perform athletic feats which we want them to do to the best of their ability, as safely as possible and be as physically comfortable as possible. That is why I think PT under saddle is a good thing for horses. The horse is very gradually built up to be able to do what we want, mentally and physically. We never work intensively for an hour. Every ride is broken up with stretches and loose rein walks, and we stop when we've accomplished enough. Repetitive drilling is counterproductive and deadly boring, too. What I've been taught to create with, let's see now - 8 different horses over the years is an elastic, responsive, healthy and willing partner.

                          Crickey, I'm trying to come back from a traumatic injury, and I really wish I had someone to help me with a program like that!
                          They don't call me frugal for nothing.
                          Proud and achy member of the Eventing Grannies clique.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Robby Johnson View Post
                            But see, this is where I have diverted. If there isn't a problem to begin with, how is it physical therapy? How is it physical therapy when the ongoing drilling/positioning leads to injury, even with the revered "master's" horses?

                            I agree with ideayoda that round and deep isn't where you want to be on XC. Moving from behind with neck in a natural "up" position with throatlach open can be trained without ever stepping into a dressage ring.

                            Like everything it has evolved/mutated, and is far from its original purpose. Several years ago the Chronicle did a great story comparing modern dressage to classical dressage, including current (at the time) conformation photographs of a grand prix horse from each "school." The classical horse showed a much more naturally developed, functional musculature. You could probably compare it to the difference between a CrossFit/functional fitness athlete (but not the cultish/joint pounding sort) and a hardcore body builder. Theoretically one is better conditioned for a barrage of challenges (and physically stronger), while the other is over-developed and sometimes incapable of bending down to tie their shoes.

                            We ask our horses to put their bodies in positions they seldom assume at liberty and, oh yeah, hold it there for an hour. I can do a backbend, but if I did it repeatedly for an hour, I'm fairly certain I'd breaker sooner rather than later.
                            CORRECTLY ridden dressage can be physical therapy as it teached the horse to use thier body correctly and efficiently. It also helps the horse build its core muscles to balance better and the training should teach the horse to respond to subtle commands to make them easier to ride.

                            In the course of an hour ride they horse should not hold one position, but as when a person does a balanced workout, they will use different muscles and maintain several different positions, each for short period of time.

                            In addition, a horse that has been trained correctly in dressage will carry those skills into other disciplines such as jumpers, cross-country, and it will even make a nicer trail horse.

                            OTOH, hand dressage is used a euphemism for force the horse into a certain position any way possible and teach the movements as tricks then it can easily cause problems.

                            Christa

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by frugalannie View Post
                              Again I find myself agreeing with mbm.

                              Robby, no horse or rider is naturally completely straight and strong. All of us and all of our horses have musculo-skeletal imbalances and resulting weaknesses. Maybe there was an injury years ago and there was compensation until that became the norm. Maybe there was a slight conformational imbalance. Maybe the horse raced. There can be many reasons. If our horses weren't being asked to carry us on their backs, and were outside whenever they wanted to be these things might not be an issue.

                              But we have this desire to ride them and ask them to perform athletic feats which we want them to do to the best of their ability, as safely as possible and be as physically comfortable as possible. That is why I think PT under saddle is a good thing for horses. The horse is very gradually built up to be able to do what we want, mentally and physically. We never work intensively for an hour. Every ride is broken up with stretches and loose rein walks, and we stop when we've accomplished enough. Repetitive drilling is counterproductive and deadly boring, too. What I've been taught to create with, let's see now - 8 different horses over the years is an elastic, responsive, healthy and willing partner.

                              Crickey, I'm trying to come back from a traumatic injury, and I really wish I had someone to help me with a program like that!
                              I haven't abandoned ship just yet! I just think they can be correct without being extreme. And, of course, am always humbled by how much they will do for us as a result of the day-in/day-out relationship building we do with them. That, to me, is the value of the tractability exercises. Speaking for myself, I like to edit/simplify what I have to think about when I have 4:29 minutes to cover 2000+ meters and cross 22 obstacles! 1.) This is the pace. 2.) Don't jump too soon. 3.) Don't jump too late. I'm almost always off on 1 of those.

                              To the original poster, please please please forgive me for getting into "Oooh Squirrel" territory.

                              I did watch the video you posted and I do agree with subk's assertion that you've not created a Kraken of great complexity. Right now he's more "Me Do Dressage." The overall picture was stiff and unbalanced, but I actually liked the natural activity he shows behind. Years ago David O'Connor was quoted in an interview as saying [paraphrasing], "Put their feet in the right place and the frame/shape will come naturally." I think you're on the right track - you recognize a deficiency, you're receptive to learning, and you have a good sense about it and a cute pony to boot.
                              When blood is the beverage of choice, the sharpest fangs feed first.

                              Comment


                              • Now I agree with mbm, Christa AND Robby*. A good day indeed!

                                * Sorry if I misinterpreted your post. And the squirrels have left the building. They're in my indoor!
                                They don't call me frugal for nothing.
                                Proud and achy member of the Eventing Grannies clique.

                                Comment


                                • At a clinic Jane Savoie said she had a competition mount that really didn't have an extended trot. She said when she asked for the extension in a test she would widen her eyes like she was reacting to a real extension. And the judges gave her good scores.
                                  "The mighty oak is a nut who stood its ground"

                                  "...you'll never win Olympic gold by shaking a carrot stick at a warmblood..." see u at x

                                  Comment


                                  • Originally posted by leahandpie View Post
                                    Oh I know...with the help of good trainers we have made SO much progress it's awesome. I know he's got way more in him...but for the OP of this thread...seeing big fancy moving WB's ridden by Ingrid Klimke might not be the most helpful. At least it isn't for me...videos like the ones from the Racehorse Retraining project (posted earlier on thread) and the ones of Purp's young horse(s) are much more helpful.

                                    Many of these posts are getting so idealistic...posting videos/photos from the internet and not of themselves/their own horses............... Just sayin'.
                                    First of all Thank you mbm!!! I love this discussion...

                                    And Leahandpie.. I think the only way to really improve is to watch the perfect Samples. Because that gives you the correct perspective. I do not like to watch People and horses who are doing ok..... Because there is a great danger to watch too many mistakes...
                                    And if it helps...... Here a sample of me with an OTTB from last year.
                                    This horse had never done any dressage training until I rode him when he was 16. He hadn't been ridden for 2 years and IMO he was not easy in his mouth, so I tried to be very careful. Also I think after 80 races his back was very worn out.
                                    But still I think you can still in a way get the point what I'm talking about...
                                    So it is possible also with average riders like me and OTTBs while retraining... By the way at the time of the video I had ridden him for about 6 weeks...
                                    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bfpx-rs_N-k
                                    https://www.facebook.com/Luckyacresfarm
                                    https://www.facebook.com/Ulrike-Bsch...4373849955364/

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                                    • Originally posted by Stacie View Post
                                      She said when she asked for the extension in a test she would widen her eyes like she was reacting to a real extension. And the judges gave her good scores.
                                      haha.
                                      yup, dressage is about confidence and bullshit!

                                      I also really enjoy the Dressage Symposiums on RFD. They are quite old but very very cool.
                                      http://kaboomeventing.com/
                                      http://kaboomeventing.blogspot.com/
                                      Horses are amazing athletes and make no mistake -- they are the stars of the show!

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                                      • Of course we don't gallop around XC super deep.
                                        Actually I gallop around XC with a loop if I can.
                                        But I will go into a gymnastic with the horse in a lower frame for sure. In fact that video I posted of the 1 trot circle was during a gymnastic session. I circled because he was too tense in his rib cage to go on to the jumping grid.

                                        Riding with that open deep frame sure allows the kids to learn how to swing through and let go of all the tensions. And of course, it's not an absolute. Though it ended up being the topic of discussion and hopefully everyone understands that it's not something that should be done 100% of the time.

                                        I like the photo of the stretching horse posted by IDEAYODA quite a lot. And though I do put my horses in that sort of frame I don't do it 100% of the time. Just at the start, at the finish, and then after a particularly hard moment during the school.

                                        I did get a little lost the last few pages so I will just say that I do find the deep position very gymnastically helpful and it sure does put the right muscles on the youngsters Then as I start to ask for moments of them in a higher self carriage type position they are able to oblige.


                                        I must have missed the point of the Ingrid Klimke video. All I saw were very well schooled higher level horses. Very lovely, but not what we were talking about so my wee brain is a tad lost.

                                        I'm enjoying this thread a lot! Keep it coming!
                                        http://kaboomeventing.com/
                                        http://kaboomeventing.blogspot.com/
                                        Horses are amazing athletes and make no mistake -- they are the stars of the show!

                                        Comment


                                        • Originally posted by purplnurpl View Post
                                          I like the photo of the stretching horse posted by IDEAYODA quite a lot. And though I do put my horses in that sort of frame I don't do it 100% of the time. Just at the start, at the finish, and then after a particularly hard moment during the school.

                                          Agreed...nothing is for 100% of the time...and everything depends on what you are feeling. I'd be thrilled if I could get a horse to stretch like that gray horse for even a few steps. With the green OTTBs or baby horses.....sometimes that is all you get of ANYTHING for a while. When it is correct and feels great for that step or two...BIG pats and get out of the ring and go for a hack! Even when working well and correctly....I have a bunch with ADD and they just don't keep their focus for a full circle....and are off looking at the squirrls
                                          ** Tact is the ability to tell someone to go to hell in such a way that they look forward to the trip. ~Winston Churchill? **

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