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Can ANY horse have that gorgeous, toe flipping extended trot?

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  • #61
    Originally posted by frugalannie View Post
    I think you are at the stage where that coordination needs to be refined and the components clearer. A good instructor will help you: feel when to ask for roundness, bend, throughness, impulsion; know how to ask effectively and; know how to acknowledge your horse's response (or lack thereof). I hope that you enjoy the process as much as I do!
    I think annie's hitting the core of what needs to be addressed. In that video, I see a very willing horse that is sort of shuffling along and agreeably going through the motions, even if they are a bit stiff. He could be quite a nice mover, once he learns how to take a bigger step with a little more swing to it and start carrying himself more from behind. At this point, he's shuffling along like your typical track horse (quite happily!).

    If this were MY horse, I'd start asking for more, in terms of lateral flexion and more push from behind. I may even ride him slightly over tempo to introduce the idea that he CAN take a *bigger* step instead of shuffling his legs faster, while incorporating exercises that encourage him to use his whole body and to unlock those shoulders and hips. Lots of transitions within the gaits and exercises that will increase the suppleness of his whole body.

    For comparison - here is a video of an old horse of mine doing a Training test, one that was previously trained as a western pleasure horse that can shuffle and lope with the best of them:

    Training Test

    The lengthening at the end is a poor example of what this horse is capable of, and my riding is not great either, but that test scored quite well - <30 if I recall, although I felt then that it was generous (and still do). Quality and accuracy win out over pretty headsets and flippy toes.

    Comment


    • #62
      Originally posted by Robby Johnson View Post
      Interesting (and nerdy, I love it!). Is the sequence you list above out of order? but the pattern does a great job reiterating something that hasn't really been touched on in this thread ... the correlation/need to be longitudinally correct at both ends of the range.
      haha!
      yes, the sequence was out of order. But I do everything out of order so it fits for me.
      and yes, I'm a nerd. Nerd purp raises hand.

      I, like bornfree, ride deep at home. I have a schooling position and a competition position. I even warm up at the shows deep. Then I bump it up to competition position right before going in the dressage arena.
      Or, if I have something that I know will be hard for the horse at it's current point of education (like a 10m circle or a shoulder in) I will drop the horse down into a deep frame for that movement to make it easier on his/her muscles.
      Basically, I do as needed at any given point. I would rather take the 1 pt hit from the judge than screw up my training progress.

      Here is a good visual as to what I'M talking about when I say deep. This is my 3 coming 4 y/o OTTB.
      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OXCC8GvjUZ0

      All of my horses school like that. Why? Because it allows them to move freely over their backs which allows for great range of motion of limbs. As you can see with this guy. His trot is quite lovely.
      I can guarantee you bornfree does the same exact thing with young horses or horses who have the ability to get a little tense. It really allows them to stay relaxed and learn to articulate their joints. It is not to be misinterpreted with rollkur or behind the bit.
      (also, behind the bit and behind the vertical are two very different phrases: A rider CHOOSES to put a horse behind the vertical where as if a horse is behind the bit it is not holding the bit and/or working properly in the bridle and therefore not able to work properly over it's back or articulate it's hocks.)

      But you see how free, loose, STRAIGHT, and correct the horse is as compared to your video of Tiki.
      In that video with Tiki, there ain't nothin goin on sista. Your very cute horse is just plodding along doing what ever they heck he wants to with his body. (I watched the first 1.5 minutes). The spiral you did lacked everything. Bend, impulsion, straightness.

      Also, I noticed that his croup is VERY flat and this type of work will be tough on him. Lengthens are not in this horse's near future. To get him correctly moving and to teach him the proper muscle memory he's one who will need to be schooled very deep and very forward.

      After seeing the video I definitely suggest finding a good dressage coach to help you make the changes that are needed at this time. I would say even having a coach ride your pony before your lesson would be very very beneficial! I love having coaches get on my horses. Then I can actually FEEL the difference that is needed rather than just guess.
      It will be too tough without guidance for you and I think there is risk of taking it too far one way or the other.
      http://kaboomeventing.com/
      http://kaboomeventing.blogspot.com/
      Horses are amazing athletes and make no mistake -- they are the stars of the show!

      Comment


      • #63
        Originally posted by purplnurpl View Post

        I, like bornfree, ride deep at home. I have a schooling position and a competition position. I even warm up at the shows deep. Then I bump it up to competition position right before going in the dressage arena.
        Or, if I have something that I know will be hard for the horse at it's current point of education (like a 10m circle or a shoulder in) I will drop the horse down into a deep frame for that movement to make it easier on his/her muscles.
        Basically, I do as needed at any given point. I would rather take the 1 pt hit from the judge than screw up my training progress.

        Here is a good visual as to what I'M talking about when I say deep. This is my 3 coming 4 y/o OTTB.
        http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OXCC8GvjUZ0

        All of my horses school like that. Why? Because it allows them to move freely over their backs which allows for great range of motion of limbs. As you can see with this guy. His trot is quite lovely.
        I can guarantee you bornfree does the same exact thing with young horses or horses who have the ability to get a little tense. It really allows them to stay relaxed and learn to articulate their joints. It is not to be misinterpreted with rollkur or behind the bit.
        (also, behind the bit and behind the vertical are two very different phrases: A rider CHOOSES to put a horse behind the vertical where as if a horse is behind the bit it is not holding the bit and/or working properly in the bridle and therefore not able to work properly over it's back or articulate it's hocks.)
        Amen! To this and everything else in your post. And I think you hit on the very important part of being able to put the horse wherever you want him- deep, "competition frame", up and open.

        Once they are a little more advanced, we also spend a lot of time moving them between frames and breaking down the individual parts of the horse, depending on their stage of training. For example, first using low/deep to bring the back up and get them really supple laterally. Then "up and open" to help them learn to use or strengthen the hindquarters for collection, then putting it all back together in the middle. Doesn't necessarily follow the classic training scale, but makes for very very rideable horses with lots of "gears" at your disposal.

        PS- Fantastic young horse, love how you ride him.

        Comment


        • #64
          Yes Purp....that is what I was talking about. And sometimes even a little deeper (bit more engagement--I liked what I saw in the video and just was thinking, little more leg--but that could be the video too). It isn't ideal for a competition because the poll isn't always the highest point...but it is where we start while we work on suppling and strength. When they are more supple and stronger, we raise the poll by having them shift their balance back toward their hock which comes from adding leg to a horse that is relaxed, accepting the bit and working over their back. Espcially how I work my really up hill boy who can go a bit like a Giraff and holds his tension in front of his withers.

          But bracing and leaning is not ever allowed and is fixed not so much from the hand and bit as from the leg with suppling work.
          Last edited by bornfreenowexpensive; Feb. 15, 2013, 05:12 PM. Reason: to be more clear
          ** Tact is the ability to tell someone to go to hell in such a way that they look forward to the trip. ~Winston Churchill? **

          Comment


          • #65
            Purp, what's that set up with the poles in the middle of the arena? The one with the x with flowers on it. Looks neat!

            Comment


            • #66
              Originally posted by Karosel View Post
              Purp, what's that set up with the poles in the middle of the arena? The one with the x with flowers on it. Looks neat!
              I do crazy stuff with poles. Just line up three trot poles. Then take out the middle one and set in flower boxes. With the X of the flower boxes being where the middle pole would have been.

              You can do it both ways. 1 way by just trotting or walking over the X of flower boxes. Or the other way which makes it basically 3 trot poles--but the little extra snazz in the middle makes them pay attention and acts like a raised cavaletti.
              http://kaboomeventing.com/
              http://kaboomeventing.blogspot.com/
              Horses are amazing athletes and make no mistake -- they are the stars of the show!

              Comment


              • #67
                Originally posted by wanderlust View Post
                Once they are a little more advanced, we also spend a lot of time moving them between frames and breaking down the individual parts of the horse, depending on their stage of training. For example, first using low/deep to bring the back up and get them really supple laterally. Then "up and open" to help them learn to use or strengthen the hindquarters for collection, then putting it all back together in the middle. Doesn't necessarily follow the classic training scale, but makes for very very rideable horses with lots of "gears" at your disposal.
                absolutely.
                Even advanced horses don't spend the entirety of their work in the "up" position.
                It's a hard place to be.

                also, to the OP. Your horsie has a short thick neck. This (along with his hind end) makes it very hard on you as a rider to get what you need. You get to work a little harder than most. (mentally!!--not necessarily physically)
                The horses with shorter thicker necks work better in that deep position because it helps lengthen the neck and open the throat latch. When they come up, the neck often gets a little "stuck" feeling and in turn shortens the entire body. When the back shortens, you are SOL.
                To get those types working softly you have to get them a little deep and really boot them forward.

                I have lots of experience with quarter horses who are not made for eventing. Very heavy short necks with long backs. It is possible to win on them. I promise.

                wonderlust-thank you so much for the shout out. It's helpful to hear. I often second guess myself.
                http://kaboomeventing.com/
                http://kaboomeventing.blogspot.com/
                Horses are amazing athletes and make no mistake -- they are the stars of the show!

                Comment


                • #68
                  Your problem is most likely in the BASIC training. http://www.usdf.org/images/photos/ab...f_training.jpg
                  start again at the bottom and do it correctly.
                  ... _. ._ .._. .._

                  Comment


                  • #69
                    Originally posted by purplnurpl View Post
                    haha!

                    Here is a good visual as to what I'M talking about when I say deep. This is my 3 coming 4 y/o OTTB.
                    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OXCC8GvjUZ0
                    FTR - I wasn't nerd bashing. I like nerds/nerdy things/feeding my inner nerd!


                    I think the bulk of your post was directed at the OP, but I did want to comment on a few other things you included. Please know I am offering these comments in the spirit of MY nerdiness and not in any way a bash or slight to you. I know it's been a minute since we've gotten to play in Area V, but I hope you remember me as a big Purp fan. And you do a MUCH better job with it than I ever did/do!

                    I think I told you on FB awhile back that I liked your new prospect too. And I love him in the video! Your interpretation of deep is similar to mine - it is an active conditioning position that allows for increased range on the global muscle groups. In fact, I wouldn't want to see a 3 coming 4 year-old in any shape beyond/above this, but I would like to see him more engaged from behind and thusly more confident in the rein. To me deep is an elongated position, so there should not be hyperflexion of the cervical atlas - which is the case whether the horse is behind the bit or behind the vertical. If you look at an anatomical chart, the bony landmarks that help gauge skeletal position show 90 degree flexion at the cervical atlas as a plumb line passing through the hinge at the mandibles - not the nostril - so even when the nose is perpendicular to the ground the cervical spine is already in hyperflexion.

                    Originally posted by purplnurpl View Post
                    All of my horses school like that. Why? Because it allows them to move freely over their backs which allows for great range of motion of limbs. As you can see with this guy. His trot is quite lovely. I can guarantee you bornfree does the same exact thing with young horses or horses who have the ability to get a little tense. It really allows them to stay relaxed and learn to articulate their joints.
                    All forward movement begins at the pelvis/acetabulum. The degree of flexion and extension at the hip dictates what is available for the rest of the movement chain. When a horse is truly working over his back, it is because the anatomy of his hip (skeletal and muscular) a.) is genetically ideal, and b.) fires synergistically to sustain the movement in a balanced capacity the progresses upward through that closed kinetic chain. The degree of depth sought should never exceed the power generated by the pelvis. Otherwise the horse is overcompensating with the scapula and pulling himself with his front legs. This results in an anatomy similar to that of Michael Phelps, or a top level swimmer, where shoulder injuries are very common. Does this body type sound like horses we, including the OP, all love to ride? Thoroughbreds? I know I know, I have a hard time admitting it too. Point is, this position is mentally and physically fulfilling to our sport horses because it is what their anatomy makes most readily available to them.

                    If we think of that picture perfect round frame we strive to achieve with our horses - the one where the entire spine is flexed - as a slight rainbow, the red (top) band and the purple (bottom) band must be equally engaged to form an arc of the same degree. When that happens, the pelvis is ultimately stabilized and supported by the abdominal/core muscles, but because the spine is already in flexion, many of the joints are in flexion, and the degree of articulation will be limited. Balanced joint movement (equal engagement of extensors/flexors, abductors/adductors ... the latter not really relevant to a horse) happens from a NEUTRAL position.

                    My suggestion/solution? Meet the horse halfway. Insist on activity from the pelvis, and let him stretch from there into your hands - never disappearing behind them. As the body becomes more comfortable and conditioned there, increases can be sought.

                    Just to reiterate, your horse may never be a fancy mover, but he can certainly improve ... and he stands a much greater chance of staying sound if trained in a practical, realistic way.

                    [...] All great suggestions.
                    When blood is the beverage of choice, the sharpest fangs feed first.

                    Comment


                    • #70
                      Originally posted by purplnurpl View Post
                      Here is a good visual as to what I'M talking about when I say deep. This is my 3 coming 4 y/o OTTB.
                      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OXCC8GvjUZ0
                      Well done! I really, really like this example and it is where I like to go with my greenies too.

                      To the OP what I would say is there is something about what you are doing with your horse that I like very much: you haven't screwed him up and you aren't doing anything incorrectly--you just haven't moved to the next step. Undeveloped should beat incorrect every time (unfortunately in the real world it doesn't--but eventually you'll create something correct that WILL beat incorrect!)

                      In the classic training manual "Training Hunters, Jumpers and Hacks" General Chamerlain explains that when starting a young horse that the first thing that needs to happen is the horse learns to go comfortably and confidently in a natural stretched out frame with contact and weight in the riders hand. Not until a horse does this and is schooled this way through all the gaits for several months should the rider/trainer try to shorten the frame and move the balance back. This is where I think you are. I find most riders skip or shorten this phase. Then when they move to the next step they try to create a more advanced frame by taking back and/or shortening not just the frame but the neck.

                      Here is something to visualize: When a horse is correctly shortening his frame from the very front to the very back he actually is LENGTHENING the top line of his neck. Hmmm. If you try to shorten his whole frame by pulling back on the reins you will shorten his neck. So it will be wrong.

                      I think the next thing for you to school is trying to teach your horse to go in a frame like purp's video. Go look at that horse's neck, but more importantly his back--neck is longer, back is lifted. Fantastic! (Really purp, very nice!) It might be counter intuitive, but teach your horse to stretch before you teach him to shorten.

                      You start this by getting the horse to think about the connection you already have. You look like you've got a few pounds in you hands and a steady contact and your horse has gotten very comfortable with that. So now put a little leg on, tickle his mouth and give your hands a little forward and try to get him to stretch forward and seek the same feel and take up the little slack in the reins you just fed him. Play around with it and when he takes up the contact praise him and scratch his neck. You want the same contact, same give in the jaw just with him reaching out and down for it. You'll probably only get a few steps at a time, but keep praising him for it and he'll get more confident about going there.

                      Once you've got the horse following your hand and he can freely move from the neutral place you have him now to the more stretched/deep place and then back again lifting the neck and shoulders for a more correct frame is the next step and is a lot easier to get there from you new place!

                      Purp or bfne, I'd love to hear your explanations too of how you teach a young horse to "find" that deep frame the first time...

                      Comment


                      • #71
                        errrr.
                        Robby used too many big words for me.
                        I'm lost.


                        but I would like to see him more engaged from behind
                        you sound like a damn dressage judge. lol. I think that is a comment that riders collectively see the most. : )

                        Originally posted by Robby Johnson View Post
                        but I would like to see him more engaged from behind and thusly more confident in the rein.
                        As well as I.
                        Progression happens slowly sometimes. ; )

                        Originally posted by Robby Johnson View Post
                        To me deep is an elongated position, so there should not be hyperflexion of the cervical atlas - which is the case whether the horse is behind the bit or behind the vertical.
                        now this is an interesting lesson to be learned.
                        I knowingly hyper flex.
                        If you were to follow the axis allowed by a vienna rein. There is a specific axis for which the horse will follow to remain "on the bit". As that axis becomes lower, the horse moves into a hyper flexed position.

                        If the horse were to lower and not become hyper flexed it would (as it moves downward) slowly come out of the contact.

                        Kind of like the idea of "stretchy trot". American judges like our horses to come off the bit and move their neck quite far out and down. There is a point at which they are no longer on the bit at all during that movement (i.e. usually once they have dropped below the line of their elbow).
                        Where as in Europe I have been told that the movement is judged more true.

                        *****
                        I really appreciate having Robby explain to follow the line of the mandible instead of the nostril. That is something I've never done. I've always looked at the point of the nose.
                        http://kaboomeventing.com/
                        http://kaboomeventing.blogspot.com/
                        Horses are amazing athletes and make no mistake -- they are the stars of the show!

                        Comment


                        • #72
                          Robby, I'm a visual learner too. But I really like purp's idea of thinking of the different trots as separate gaits. I think what it helps with is having/teaching transitions from one trot to the other. When you're watching the very best riders (WFP, Jung, et.al) those transitions are a big part of what is separating them from the pack.

                          Comment

                          • Original Poster

                            #73
                            I just want to reiterate how awesome all y'all are. I appreciate the honesty and the feedback. I get into a habit of "chasing" Tiki, because I KNOW he shuffles along. Honestly, in the video, with the exception of him doing the head tilt/bend through the neck but not the body, he looks a million times better than he did even a year and a half ago, and I'm happy. I guess moving up the levels, I've not ever done, so it's a foreign world to me! I know what I *wish* he looked like (Tate, anyone? Or maybe Arthur?)

                            He *always* does that head tilt, even in a halter on the longe line! It HAS been about a year since his last floating though, it probably wouldn't hurt to get that done. As for the stiffness, yes, it's always slightly there unless he's out in the field jumping Quiessence has been suggested to me to help with that. He was seen by the only equine chiro that comes out my way once, and she wouldn't even touch him until I paid a few hundred dollars for her to drape him in some special muscle stimulating pad thingie to relax his muscles first. Yeah, no.

                            Yesterday and today, I asked a LOT out of him. I wish I'd had someone to film me, because I felt pretty dang good, actually. I felt like I was riding forward without chasing, I was visualizing and thinking about his hind end coming under, and half halting to try and raise that wither up. His transitions were spot on with nary a hint of a quick scramble, and I could see his neck was nice and round. I've switched his bit up recently to a simple mullen happy mouth loose ring, and I could see all the spit he was flinging, which normally he doesn't really do. I'm actually sore in my abs and thighs from riding I think I'm afraid to abandon 100% my inner hunter princess, and embrace my full fledged dressage queen ... so today, I dropped my stirrups a hole, brought those shoulders back, shortened my reins, and didn't stress about keeping my heels down. I will try and get in a dressage lesson with the local trainer in the next week or 2 and report back!
                            http://tailsoftheottb.blogspot.com

                            Comment


                            • #74
                              Originally posted by wanderlust View Post
                              Amen! To this and everything else in your post. And I think you hit on the very important part of being able to put the horse wherever you want him- deep, "competition frame", up and open.

                              Once they are a little more advanced, we also spend a lot of time moving them between frames and breaking down the individual parts of the horse, depending on their stage of training. For example, first using low/deep to bring the back up and get them really supple laterally. Then "up and open" to help them learn to use or strengthen the hindquarters for collection, then putting it all back together in the middle. Doesn't necessarily follow the classic training scale, but makes for very very rideable horses with lots of "gears" at your disposal.

                              PS- Fantastic young horse, love how you ride him.

                              THIS! "Purp", excellent post and video.

                              Comment


                              • #75
                                Originally posted by subk View Post
                                Purp or bfne, I'd love to hear your explanations too of how you teach a young horse to "find" that deep frame the first time...
                                honestly....I let my trainer who is a FAR better dressage rider than me get on for a ride or two! I kid you not. I'll break them start them and when they are ready for that step...hand the reins over...and then continue on

                                I've also find lunging in sliding side reins can really help teach it. You have to work them well on a lunge line...sending forward etc....but the sliding side reins are a nice way for them to sort out the contact as they give right when they should, are as steady and consistent as can be and there is no rider screwing up their balance on their back. Long lining can also be very effective. Both lunging and long lining have the added benefit that you can see the whole horse as well as feel them. I sometimes think people forget about the benefits of this type of ground work.
                                ** Tact is the ability to tell someone to go to hell in such a way that they look forward to the trip. ~Winston Churchill? **

                                Comment


                                • #76
                                  Originally posted by Robby Johnson View Post
                                  To me deep is an elongated position, so there should not be hyperflexion of the cervical atlas - which is the case whether the horse is behind the bit or behind the vertical.
                                  Purp's horse is not hyperflexed.

                                  Robby if you look closely you'll see that the degree of flexion of the cerical atlas doesn't actually change what is changing is the neck in relation to the horizontal.

                                  Think of it like a long stick (the neck) and a short stick (the head.) The short stick is fixed at, say, 90° to the long stick. If the long stick is horizontal to the ground the short stick will be vertical. If the long stick starts tilting down the short stick goes behind the vertical but the angle/axis where it is attached to the long stick HAS NOT CHANGED it is still 90°.

                                  When a horse is deep with a correct angle (non hyperflexion) in the axis because the neck starts getting close to horizontal the face plane will go behind the vertical. Lift the neck without changing the axis angle and the face is no long BTV.

                                  If anybody didn't understand my visual self trying to explain that, let me know. I'll try again tonight after a few beers and see if I can be clearer.

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                                  • #77
                                    Originally posted by subk View Post

                                    Purp or bfne, I'd love to hear your explanations too of how you teach a young horse to "find" that deep frame the first time...
                                    asking me to give away secrets!!??

                                    Honestly? for me? I don't even get on until they can use the bridle.
                                    Of course if I'm breaking a 2 year old I don't do anything like that.
                                    But if I'm breaking an older horse or starting a horse who is clueless I don't get on until they can lunge and lunge on the bridle.

                                    The guy in the video...I lunged him a little bit (maybe for 4 weeks) before I got on. Of course I test drove him. But then I brought him home and didn't get on probably for about 4 or so weeks.
                                    So I'd say he lunged about 6 times. He was fairly screwed up from his track days and it's taken a while to unlock his butt.

                                    I love a veinna rein for insensitive horses.
                                    But for the very sensitive guys like this one--who will gladly over flex even when I don't want him too--I won't use a veinna rein.

                                    I prefer to lunge in a german neck stretcher AND doughnut side reins at the SAME TIME. I don't like doughnut side reins on their own. The horses can invert easily and pay attention to anything. One fix is to tighten those suckers up so they are so damn tight that the horse can't lift it's head. But I'm not in that group of thought. I figured out a few years ago that I can leave my side reins fairly loose if I just add a german neck stretcher. The neck stretcher doesn't act on the mouth at all, it works only on the poll when the horse lifts it's head to an inverted position.
                                    So if the horse needs help realizing that it should lower it's neck to work within the side reins then the neck stretcher is PERFECT.
                                    If the horse never inverts, the stretcher stays loose and said horsie won't even know it's there.
                                    The side reins of course will keep the shoulders straight and teach the horse to work with correct/steady contact. I like them long enough that the horse can get to that deeper position on his own will and on his own time.
                                    Basically, long enough that when I attach them on an uneducated horse he won't flip out and think he's stuck--or go backwards.
                                    And I attach the lunge line to the inside bit so that I can vibrate the bit and ask for flexion and I can push the horse forward and get a nice BIG TROT into those side reins. And then I wait the horse out. Sometimes I have to add lots of transitions to get the body to do what I want. I wait for the horse to drop it's poll and I make sure that I can see the neck muscles fibrillating (not sure if that is the correct term or not). I want to see the fibers and I want to see them looking loose. You can usually see at least 3 muscle sections on a nice loose neck. And when he lowers his frame and shows a loose neck (when they do this it is the inevitable side effect of a very loose back and through step) I let him know that he's the best dang horse I've ever worked with. lol. It takes a lot of patience sometimes.

                                    I don't like equipment like the "lungie bungie". Ya know, those side reins that are fully elastic? because that's not how we ride. I think they are too forgiving and they allow too much freedom. I think a horse can root really easily against them.

                                    For the horses that like to hang--I whip out a vienna rein.

                                    and actually, when I started my broodmare, I had to only put on one side rein at the beginning. She was a drama queen. So I do whatever I need to do to work them up to learning how to go properly on the lunge. Then I get on and I'm good to go!

                                    And then it just takes miles and patience in the saddle.

                                    So with the guy in the video, here is the video of how he went after I lunged him a bit. This was one of his 1st rides.
                                    He doesn't know what he's doing...but at least he has the tools to try. He's not freaking out out every time I move the bit and he can try to stay soft.
                                    If they don't do at least that much, I'm not going to get on that. lol.
                                    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kFTI2jvE8uE

                                    for instance, if the OPs horse came to me, I would not get on.
                                    So many great things can be taught in hand. I LOVE in hand work.
                                    I will teach the lengthens in had as well.
                                    I will also travel quite a bit while on the lunge. I don't stay in a circle.

                                    This isn't something I normally talk about so don't be surprised if it's been deleted by tomorrow. ; )
                                    Last edited by purplnurpl; Feb. 15, 2013, 06:32 PM.
                                    http://kaboomeventing.com/
                                    http://kaboomeventing.blogspot.com/
                                    Horses are amazing athletes and make no mistake -- they are the stars of the show!

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                                    • #78
                                      Wow! Tons of great advice on here! I'm not even gonna try and jump in with some of you, , I watched the video (parts) and saw a very stiff horse who was behind the leg and "cheating" on turns by popping out in the hip and shoulder instead of flexing. What's the horses history? Age? Have you considered chiro work or any oral supplements?

                                      Comment


                                      • #79
                                        Originally posted by subk View Post
                                        Robby, I'm a visual learner too. But I really like purp's idea of thinking of the different trots as separate gaits. I think what it helps with is having/teaching transitions from one trot to the other. When you're watching the very best riders (WFP, Jung, et.al) those transitions are a big part of what is separating them from the pack.
                                        Like I said earlier, whatever works for you is what you should develop, as long as everyone is aligned around expectations ... and as long as what you do is fair to your horse. I haven't (or at least don't think I have) suggested transitions or distinctions within the gait are unimportant. I very much understand that they are. I am trying to communicate the importance of load-bearing architecture and engineering, that the pattern of movement is consistent throughout (whether it's 7 distinct gaits to you or 1 gait spoken in 7 different accents for me), and that understanding and training from the perspective of biomechanics, as opposed to aesthetics, yields preferable results. That probably contradicts the idea of visual learning, doesn't it? But not really. After all, I still look at visual landmarks to validate the biomechanics.


                                        Originally posted by purplnurpl
                                        As well as I.
                                        Progression happens slowly sometimes. ; )
                                        I'm not even kidding, I went into a chicken/egg scenario when I made the comment on reins, which basically said "You have to start somewhere!" It started getting wordy(ier) and taking me down a different path, so I axed it, but I wish I'd have left it in. Why? Because I think you've started in the right place - forward. Even if he's not stepping through his tracks, you have the right amount of energy to mold and strengthen. If we didn't start there, it would be "Every day I'm shuffling" for all of us!

                                        Based on the video you posted, I'd say you're in a place where with just a little more emphasis on strengthening he'll soon be confirmed in the position and correctly prepared to progress.

                                        My one piece of advice to help you in this effort (I've just made this thread about you!) would be: when he moves backward from the contact slow him through your hip so that his hip can balance, then just bring your hands slightly closer together for a step to see if he'll take the increased energy you've created from behind into the length of rein you've defined.
                                        When blood is the beverage of choice, the sharpest fangs feed first.

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                                        • #80
                                          Originally posted by purplnurpl View Post

                                          now this is an interesting lesson to be learned.
                                          I knowingly hyper flex.
                                          If you were to follow the axis allowed by a vienna rein. There is a specific axis for which the horse will follow to remain "on the bit". As that axis becomes lower, the horse moves into a hyper flexed position.

                                          If the horse were to lower and not become hyper flexed it would (as it moves downward) slowly come out of the contact.

                                          Kind of like the idea of "stretchy trot". American judges like our horses to come off the bit and move their neck quite far out and down. There is a point at which they are no longer on the bit at all during that movement (i.e. usually once they have dropped below the line of their elbow).
                                          Where as in Europe I have been told that the movement is judged more true.

                                          *****
                                          I really appreciate having Robby explain to follow the line of the mandible instead of the nostril. That is something I've never done. I've always looked at the point of the nose.
                                          You're right - that's a very interesting lesson and concept to consider. I could buy into it completely as long as the back end is doing the driving.
                                          When blood is the beverage of choice, the sharpest fangs feed first.

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