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video: a PointTwo failure to deploy

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  • KellyS,
    You would probably want to try on the EXO to find out exactly where it touches in relation to your implant. However, your description of your body type sounds like it would work for an EXO. You can find sizing charts on line.
    Blugal

    You never know what kind of obsessive compulsive crazy person you are until another person imitates your behaviour at a three-day. --Gry2Yng

    Comment


    • RAyers, I totally see your point and am fully aware, although I do not think I've been subject to a "mob" effect.

      I realize the empirical evidence isn't there. But it isn't there on either side. So all any of us are left with is anecdotal evidence. On either side. And although I do not know who you are, I am guessing that you are an expert in the area of safety. And I am listening to what you and others are saying. But I am also considering to my own direct experiences and the experiences of others. Those are direct experiences with the vests. Either way.

      Originally posted by RAyers View Post
      So, abaumgardner, you admit to following the same unproven technology as done in motorcycles. As I noted previously, in one of the studies, it was pointed out that there is no evidence the back protectors used in motorcycles have no proof of efficacy other than being in common use.

      Given your background I am rather surprised that you at łeast are not recognizing the mob effect as to the use of air jackets.

      At least in my case, as a member of the university safety committee, having been through safety training for everything from industrial production processes to hazardous waste, radioactive materials and explosives, and developing safety protocols for personnel working in those environments, as well as USING all sorts of PPE, I am using my experience in the use of multiple types of PPE. I am pretty sure no ULRs or BNTs have much training in that.

      Had you been at the air vest symposium you would have seen directly the lack of evidence of if these devices work/reduce injury although one presenter had the gall to call for their mandatory use even though he presented NO data to justify his position. Thankfully, Roy Burek (again CEO of Charles Owen and member of ASTM) shot that down very quickly using a very effective, well reasoned factually based argument.
      -Ann

      Comment


      • Originally posted by ahbaumgardner View Post
        And although I do not know who you are, I am guessing that you are an expert in the area of safety.
        Here you go:
        http://metallurgy.mines.edu/Ayers


        Dr. Ayers is a Assistant Professor in Metallurgical and Materials Engineering at the Colorado School of Mines, where he specializes in ceramic and intermetallic biomaterials for bone engineering and the analysis of tissues as materials. He received his B.S. degree in Aerospace Engineering from the University of Colorado, Boulder in 1987. He then worked for Martin Marietta Astronautics for 7 years on the Titan IV program. In 1994 he returned to the University of Colorado for his M.S. (1995) and Ph.D. (1999) in Aerospace Engineering. He worked at the spaceflight life sciences research center, BioServe Space Technologies where he focused on the mechanical properties of bone and how properties scale through species. For his Ph.D. (1999), Reed's work focused on the effects of material porosity on bone ingrowth in human craniofacial bone. During this time, he also was part of several Space Shuttle flights examining the effect of cytokines on mitigating the effects of bone loss in astronauts. Reed was a post-doctoral fellow at the Center for Commercial Applications of Combustion in Space at the Colorado School of Mines in 1999. He was an adjunct faculty at the University of Colorado from 2000-2006 and at Colorado state university from 2004-2005. At the Colorado School of Mines, Reed has adapted the process of combustion synthesis of calcium phosphate to make multiphasic bioceramics. He is also a leader in the detection of toxic elements in skin tissue. Reed's research interests include, calcium phosphate ceramic synthesis, bone tissue engineering, tissue responses to biomaterials, bone mechanical properties and bone biomineralization.

        Research Interests: Craniofacial implants (porous metals and ceramics, and shape memory metals), bone mechanics and enzyme/substrate interactions, spaceflight skeletal and immune effects, immune and skeletal system development, laboratory automation for high throughput biological screening, digital image processing, and cytokine therapies in the regeneration of joint cartilage.
        If you are allergic to a thing, it is best not to put that thing in your mouth, particularly if the thing is cats. - Lemony Snicket

        Comment


        • I realize the empirical evidence isn't there. But it isn't there on either side. So all any of us are left with is anecdotal evidence. On either side. And although I do not know who you are, I am guessing that you are an expert in the area of safety. And I am listening to what you and others are saying. But I am also considering to my own direct experiences and the experiences of others. Those are direct experiences with the vests. Either way.
          So now I'm pondering the principle of inertia in a sort of non-specific way. If we are exposed to a new device or item that is not really proven helpful or harmful, one way or the other, I wonder if our initial "leaning" completely colors our decision on whether or not to get one for ourselves. And if, once we've done so (or not) more sort of non-substantial "evidence" comes about, is that enough to make us change our mind?

          In other words, I wonder if someone who was on the fence about air vests with no real bias would lean towards buying one or not buying one after considering all the stuff brought up here. With a healthy acknowledgement that this is NOT the be-all and end-all of air vest discussions!

          I am perfectly willing to acknowledge that my own bias is decidedly slanted towards "show me first" for new products or things. And that nothing I've read here or anywhere else has moved me much in either direction. And I am actually fairly close (in terms of my personal risk vs. benefit calculus) to wanting a vest, but definitely not close enough (evidence-wise) to actually buy and wear one. As I said before, I need some very specific concerns answered first, and even then my personal adoption of one of these would be lukewarm and not done to protect myself from terrible or fatal injuries, but rather from the kind that would perhaps make me have to change my lifestyle or make it hard to continue being as active as I want to be.
          Click here before you buy.

          Comment


          • I can't believe how many people I see wearing air vests now. Just observationally, there seem to be more people wearing them than NOT wearing them, in my area.
            I'll admit, if the vests cost less, say around $40 and the cannisters were around $10, I might get one to try out. But the cost is so prohibitive there's no way I can justify 3mos board, with no real evidence that they make me safer.

            Comment


            • Yes, a lot of people are wearing them now. At the recognized events, I would say that much more often than not. And I would guess that almost all of the ULRs are wearing them. You do not have to pay a huge amount for a vest. Hit Air had a sale awhile back and you could get one for less than $400. I know over ten people who got them during that sale. I figure the cost of the vest was about the cost of one event. People I know have said that they do NOT like the hybrid vest - one of my trainers was sent one and sent it back. I guess they are heavy and hot. The HitAir, which I have, is light and airy and you really can't tell you are even wearing it.
              Last edited by Winding Down; Feb. 11, 2013, 03:25 PM.
              -Ann

              Comment


              • The P2, which I have, is light and airy and you really can't tell you are even wearing it.
                I thought you had a Hit Air? (your post, below)

                I personally do not like the combination vests. And my trainer doesn't either. She was offered one for free and declined. They seem cumbersome. However, she absolutely swears by airvests and is one who endorses P2.

                Seems like people on this forum are very negative about airvests. I am surprised as I've not heard others be negative. I agree that the advertising is over the top, but isn't that the way of advertising? I certainly wouldn't decline wearing a helmet because of advertising hype and I won't do the same for the airvest. I *love* that thing!

                I got the hitair simply because it was less expensive. It is part of my necessary apparel when riding or school xc and I wear it elsewhere if I am wearing a safety vest.
                Click here before you buy.

                Comment


                • You are right. I had a brain fart. I have the hit air. Thanks for keeping me on my toes.

                  Originally posted by deltawave View Post
                  I thought you had a Hit Air? (your post, below)
                  -Ann

                  Comment

                  • Original Poster

                    Dredging this thread up again because, while searching for something totally unrelated, I learned that Clayton Fredericks is a P2 sponsored rider. (I did look for that before on the Fredericks' website but it's not there, just on the P2 Website.)

                    So that answers my question. He's wearing the airbag as an 'item of apparel' because he is sponsored by P2. I guess he wants to honor the sponsorship contract but he doesn't always want to use the product as intended. Not unlike that incident when the skier Lindsey Vonn was wearing boots not made by her sponsor (and her sponsorships are big money) but painted to look identical (with logos) to boots made by her sponsor.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by JER View Post
                      Dredging this thread up again because, while searching for something totally unrelated, I learned that Clayton Fredericks is a P2 sponsored rider. (I did look for that before on the Fredericks' website but it's not there, just on the P2 Website.)

                      So that answers my question. He's wearing the airbag as an 'item of apparel' because he is sponsored by P2. I guess he wants to honor the sponsorship contract but he doesn't always want to use the product as intended. Not unlike that incident when the skier Lindsey Vonn was wearing boots not made by her sponsor (and her sponsorships are big money) but painted to look identical (with logos) to boots made by her sponsor.
                      It is also incredibly possible that he just forgot to clip it. I have come close to forgetting many times.

                      Comment


                      • I note that Clayton's endorsement on the P2 website is a lot more muted than many others - and says nothing of its life-saving capabilities:
                        I was a bit sceptical of the Point Two at first — I didn't want to have to wear anything else other than my body protector. But it's not until you fall off that you realise how much impact an air jacket takes out of a fall. It definitely takes the hard hit out of fall, and having experienced that a couple of times I wouldn't be without it. And it doubles as a flotation device for when you fall in the water!
                        Blugal

                        You never know what kind of obsessive compulsive crazy person you are until another person imitates your behaviour at a three-day. --Gry2Yng

                        Comment


                        • ROFL, maybe they could get it Coast Guard rated!
                          Life doesn't have perfect footing.

                          Bloggily entertain yourself with our adventures (and disasters):
                          We Are Flying Solo

                          Comment

                          • Original Poster

                            Originally posted by JFCeventer View Post
                            It is also incredibly possible that he just forgot to clip it. I have come close to forgetting many times.
                            I considered that possibility.

                            However, I thought it was unlikely that an experienced rider and P2 wearer would get on their horse, ride to warm-up, ride and jump in warm-up, then ride down to the start box and not realize the lanyard was flapping around.

                            I mean, we're talking about safety equipment -- isn't this the equivalent of not strapping on your helmet? Is it really that easy to forget to hook up the lanyard so that your overvest is transformed from a loose-fitting garment into a safety device?

                            Or -- and really, I have no idea how people use these things -- is the lanyard something you keep unhooked in warm-up and attach in the start box? That doesn't make sense, at least not to me, because a fall in warm-up can be as dangerous as a fall on course, and the whole point of wearing an air jacket is to protect yourself in a fall. Moreover, you're allowed to fall in warm-up and still go out on course (unlike on XC), so wouldn't you want to increase your chances of not getting injured in a warm-up fall?

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by JER View Post
                              I considered that possibility.

                              However, I thought it was unlikely that an experienced rider and P2 wearer would get on their horse, ride to warm-up, ride and jump in warm-up, then ride down to the start box and not realize the lanyard was flapping around.

                              I mean, we're talking about safety equipment -- isn't this the equivalent of not strapping on your helmet? Is it really that easy to forget to hook up the lanyard so that your overvest is transformed from a loose-fitting garment into a safety device?

                              Or -- and really, I have no idea how people use these things -- is the lanyard something you keep unhooked in warm-up and attach in the start box? That doesn't make sense, at least not to me, because a fall in warm-up can be as dangerous as a fall on course, and the whole point of wearing an air jacket is to protect yourself in a fall. Moreover, you're allowed to fall in warm-up and still go out on course (unlike on XC), so wouldn't you want to increase your chances of not getting injured in a warm-up fall?
                              I, personally, keep my lanyard clipped to itself so it is out of the way when warming up. Therefore it is very easily forgettable. Also, the air vest is so lightweight you don't even notice that you're wearing it. I warm up without my air vest clipped because if it inflated in a warmup fall, I would not have the time for it to deflate and for the canister to get replaced and I would rather have my vest on course where there is higher speeds and solid fences instead of in the warmup. I do understand your thinking about the warmup fall, but that is just my personal preference.

                              I don't know if Clayton's lanyard was purposely left unclipped or not, I am just trying to make the point of an air vest wearer that it is very easy to forget about it when you are thinking about your warmup and cross country ride. Also, I am not an avid enforcer of air vest wearing. I won mine, and probably would not own one if I had to pay full price for it. I wear it, I've fallen in it and it definitely made for a much more comfortable fall, I am still always observant about checking it before every single ride in it to make sure the canister is screwed in properly and everything looks good, and I would very much like more research than is available but I am not under the impression that it causes more damage when deployed, although I can appreciate the view of those that do.

                              Comment


                              • I could be wrong, but sponsorship through P2,is a free vest. I think that's it. So there's no reason to endorse unless you actually want the vest. :-)
                                -Ann

                                Comment


                                • JER and the neverending witch hunt continues.

                                  I can say with 100% confidence that Clayton forgot to hook up at Burghley. Simple as that. Just as Lucinda did this past weekend.

                                  Point Two has said their sponsorship is free product only. From what I understand some other companies such as Charles Owen actually pay their riders. So if he didn't want to wear it I'm sure he wouldn't.

                                  I witnessed first hand the panic that ensued this past weekend when after coming off in the water at Red Hills Clayton remembered his vest needed a new canister while warming up his second ride. Much scrambling around by the Canadian chef d'equipe to get him sorted prior to heading out on xc. If he was only wearing the thing as an item I apparel I'm not sure why he would have bothered?!?!
                                  "look deep into his pedigree. Look for the name of a one-of-a-kind horse who lends to his kin a fierce tenacity, a will of iron, a look of eagles. Look & know that Slew is still very much with us."

                                  Comment


                                  • Weird -- old thread, dueling last-posters. It is a shame that when people have wrecks the only thing that is argued over is the air vest. Darn I wish the event board would talk about eventing again....like it used to...sigh, longing for the old days.
                                    Proud & Permanent Student Of The Long Road
                                    Read me: EN (http://eventingnation.com/author/annemarch/) and HJU (http://horsejunkiesunited.com/author/holly-covey/)

                                    Comment


                                    • Originally posted by JER View Post
                                      I considered that possibility.

                                      However, I thought it was unlikely that an experienced rider and P2 wearer would get on their horse, ride to warm-up, ride and jump in warm-up, then ride down to the start box and not realize the lanyard was flapping around.

                                      I mean, we're talking about safety equipment -- isn't this the equivalent of not strapping on your helmet? Is it really that easy to forget to hook up the lanyard so that your overvest is transformed from a loose-fitting garment into a safety device?

                                      Or -- and really, I have no idea how people use these things -- is the lanyard something you keep unhooked in warm-up and attach in the start box? That doesn't make sense, at least not to me, because a fall in warm-up can be as dangerous as a fall on course, and the whole point of wearing an air jacket is to protect yourself in a fall. Moreover, you're allowed to fall in warm-up and still go out on course (unlike on XC), so wouldn't you want to increase your chances of not getting injured in a warm-up fall?
                                      Sincerely, with all do respect - and I mean that JER because I normally like reading your posts.... but here you seem to be going on and on about whether CF had some motive behind why his vest wasn't clip... Why not just ASK him?????
                                      You know you're a horse person when your mother, who has no grandchildren, gets cards addressed to Grandma, signed by the horses, cats, and dogs.

                                      Comment

                                      • Original Poster

                                        Originally posted by sisu27 View Post
                                        I can say with 100% confidence that Clayton forgot to hook up at Burghley. Simple as that. Just as Lucinda did this past weekend.
                                        So what you're saying is that Lucinda's recent fall in which she had some injuries (fractured ribs, IIRC, maybe something else), she also was wearing an air vest with an unattached lanyard?

                                        I really don't understand why this is happening, never mind twice in the same family. If one believes that an air vest can make a significant difference -- which has ranged, anecdotally, from 'less sore' to 'saved my life' -- then why the cavalier attitude toward attaching the lanyard so the vest can perform its function?

                                        Does that happen with other eventing safety equipment? You zip up or buckle your conventional body protector, you do up the strap on your helmet, you put rein stops on your reins if you're using a running martingale. But there is a difference, in that those are all covered by rules, and are not at the rider's discretion.

                                        This isn't a witch hunt for me. I'm very much interested in safety, and I've been asking all along to see the demonstrated benefits of the air vests. That's why, when I saw Clayton's photo in the H&H contest (discussed in my OP), I thought I was finally seeing the perfect example of how an air vest can give added protection. I was puzzled that his vest didn't deploy, and I honestly couldn't tell from the video what caused that, so I asked about it on here, figuring that someone with sharper eyes or better screen resolution could see what was happening.

                                        I don't know the Fredericks, although if I happened to see them somewhere I wouldn't hesitate to ask.

                                        I really do find it odd that air vest users can easily forget to attach the lanyard or that users don't always attach them for warm-up. JFCeventer's explanation of this was news to me. OTOH, I completely understand how users can dismount without remembering to detach the lanyard.

                                        Comment


                                        • Originally posted by JER View Post
                                          So what you're saying is that Lucinda's recent fall in which she had some injuries (fractured ribs, IIRC, maybe something else), she also was wearing an air vest with an unattached lanyard?

                                          I really don't understand why this is happening, never mind twice in the same family. If one believes that an air vest can make a significant difference -- which has ranged, anecdotally, from 'less sore' to 'saved my life' -- then why the cavalier attitude toward attaching the lanyard so the vest can perform its function?

                                          Does that happen with other eventing safety equipment? You zip up or buckle your conventional body protector, you do up the strap on your helmet, you put rein stops on your reins if you're using a running martingale. But there is a difference, in that those are all covered by rules, and are not at the rider's discretion.

                                          This isn't a witch hunt for me. I'm very much interested in safety, and I've been asking all along to see the demonstrated benefits of the air vests. That's why, when I saw Clayton's photo in the H&H contest (discussed in my OP), I thought I was finally seeing the perfect example of how an air vest can give added protection. I was puzzled that his vest didn't deploy, and I honestly couldn't tell from the video what caused that, so I asked about it on here, figuring that someone with sharper eyes or better screen resolution could see what was happening.

                                          I don't know the Fredericks, although if I happened to see them somewhere I wouldn't hesitate to ask.

                                          I really do find it odd that air vest users can easily forget to attach the lanyard or that users don't always attach them for warm-up. JFCeventer's explanation of this was news to me. OTOH, I completely understand how users can dismount without remembering to detach the lanyard.
                                          I thought of you JER when I saw this posted on the PointTwo Facebook page yesterday:
                                          It has been brought to our attention that an alarming amount of people forget to clip on their Air Jackets to their saddle attachment, when riding! If the jacket is not clipped on it will not inflate in the event of a fall! It is also really important to read your instruction manual in order to learn how to correctly reset your jacket, failure to do so may result in your jacket not functioning correctly.
                                          So not as rare as you think. Oddly enough, I have almost forgot to clip my vest before xc but have never even come close to dismounting without unclipping it. I'm thinking a lot less after xc than before. The difference between the vest and all of the other safety items you mention is that all of that stuff happens before mounting and heading to warmup. I don't know many air vest wearers that have their vest clipped in warmup. I zip my normal vest, put my horse's boots on, strap my helmet on all before getting on and warming up. Once my mind is occupied with other things it is very easy to forget that I'm wearing the vest at all.

                                          Comment

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