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video: a PointTwo failure to deploy

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  • Original Poster

    Originally posted by Kachina View Post
    Wow. 10 pages of discourse re rider safety, sporadically interrrupted by a few posts lamenting the fate of the horse in that fall. JMHO, but I think it should be the other way around. Carry on.
    This incident happened in September. The horse was 'fine', according to the rider and numerous reports. The fate of the horse is well-known and doesn't require lamentation at this point in time.

    This thread is about the disposition of the air vest in the video.

    I don't have a problem with the nature of your concern, but there's no need to lecture us on our priorities.

    Comment


    • Kachina, this thread is about an incident that happened months ago, where the horse was uninjured. What is your point? Are you confusing this with the incident in Ocala, perhaps? Or are you trying to say that horse welfare is more important and worthy of "lamentation" than that of humans?
      Click here before you buy.

      Comment


      • JER-just an opinion, not a lecture. An opinion about responses to a video that was posted. Agreeing with the few comments lamenting the fact that the horse took such a hard fall. I really had no assumption about timeline of incident.

        dw-Again, had not a thought as to when the video was made. I don't feel as confused today as I sometimes do . The "incident" in Ocala, like where the horse actually expired on course? Nope, I understand that was a separate "incident." "Horse welfare?" I confess that I agree with another post on this thread referencing horses as a tragic animal. Humans? Maybe not so much.

        Comment


        • Humans? Maybe not so much
          I sincerely hope that time and experience never disabuse you of this notion.
          Click here before you buy.

          Comment

          • Original Poster

            Originally posted by Kachina View Post
            I really had no assumption about timeline of incident.
            My OP said it was at Burghley, which is in early September. Most eventers know this but perhaps you're from another discipline.

            Also, this fall was discussed on the Burghley threads in September. IIRC, several people expressed dismay that CF didn't seem concerned about his horse. I can't comment on that because I haven't seen any more of the video than what I've posted.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by ahbaumgardner View Post
              I do NOT agree with you on this, Kelly. In the absence of evidence, one way or the other, I will take anecdotal evidence. It beats no evidence at all...
              Actually ahbaumgardner, you will only take anecdotal evidence in support of the air vest. KellyS supplied you with what could be called anecdotal evidence in opposition to vests, and you dismissed it.

              Look, again it is your choice. I understand how someone could feel pounced upon on this board for wearing a vest. But I also understand that most (if not all) of those voicing concern and opposition are doing it out of real safety concerns for those wearing them (that means YOU).

              If we really didn't care one iota about you and other people wearing them, we would just sit back and let you be the crash test dummies for us. That's a really easy way to get the data and testing many of us are looking for. Instead, we continue to express concern and frustration for a lack of testing.

              Comment


              • Thank you. And I feel the same. If I didn't care about people out there (here), I would not keep being the lone voice regarding air vests. I know there are many on this forum who wear the air vests but they are quiet (or come up with alters!). The vocal opinion on this forum is very much anti-vest. That really worries me.

                We've had people argue that they will not consider wearing a vest until there are studies published in peer-reviewed journals. So they are holding the air vests to a higher standard than other safety equipment that is required in our sport.

                I have chosen to speak up and bear the consequences. I have learned that the advertising has been misleading. I have learned that there are instances of malfunction, although I have not seen any first hand reports of this. I am willing to take all the information in... and continue to make the best and most educated decision I can. And I will continue to try to influence those I care about.

                I am fine with anecdotal evidence either way. I am not fine with a statement that one would die if they had been wearing a vest (or not). That is not anecdotal evidence. That is a factual statement without empirical proof. Interestingly, I was attacked previously for saying that a medical professional, who actually witnessed a fall, said my injuries would have been worse if I had not been wearing an air vest. The statement was based on observation and not nearly as extreme. (No one said I would have died!). Yet I received multiple replies questioning the integrity of the EMT's... from...



                Originally posted by SevenDogs View Post
                Actually ahbaumgardner, you will only take anecdotal evidence in support of the air vest. KellyS supplied you with what could be called anecdotal evidence in opposition to vests, and you dismissed it.

                Look, again it is your choice. I understand how someone could feel pounced upon on this board for wearing a vest. But I also understand that most (if not all) of those voicing concern and opposition are doing it out of real safety concerns for those wearing them (that means YOU).

                If we really didn't care one iota about you and other people wearing them, we would just sit back and let you be the crash test dummies for us. That's a really easy way to get the data and testing many of us are looking for.

                Comment


                • I am fine with anecdotal evidence either way. I am not fine with a statement that one would die if they had been wearing a vest (or not). That is not anecdotal evidence. That is a factual statement without empirical proof. Interestingly, I was attacked previously for saying that a medical professional, who actually witnessed a fall, said my injuries would have been worse if I had not been wearing an air vest. The statement was based on observation and not nearly as extreme. (No one said I would have died!). Yet I received multiple replies questioning the integrity of the EMT's... from...
                  ME, for one. And I clearly stated above that I though this sort of statement on EITHER side was speculative (and bordering on irresponsible) for any medical provider to do. I am trying to be fair and even-handed about this specific topic.

                  You have a funny way of feeling "attacked" when what is actually being challenged are the assertions and deeds of others.

                  What really worries ME is what I see and hear at every horse show re: air vests--that they are recommended by this or that BNT, that they are "mandatory", that they are "approved", that they are "endorsed by the USEA" and that they "saved so-and-so's life". All of which are just irresponsible and thoughtless comments, but they reflect what is actually being thought and fed into the minds of people who don't really want to be bothered finding out for themselves what the actual facts are. So if this is ONE place in the vast world where there is a somewhat countervailing viewpoint, I actually consider that a good thing. I'm surprised, with your self-proclaimed status as a person who likes to go against the grain, that you don't simply come on board for that reason alone.

                  I assure you, the handful of voices here are DROWNED OUT by the voices of the masses, the large majority of whom are buying air vests just as quickly as they can find them in their personal colors. Because one has to use SOME discrimination, after all, in product selection!
                  Click here before you buy.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by ahbaumgardner View Post
                    We've had people argue that they will not consider wearing a vest until there are studies published in peer-reviewed journals. So they are holding the air vests to a higher standard than other safety equipment that is required in our sport.
                    That may be... and I would suggest that a piece of safety equipment with mechanical operations that tethers you to a 1200 lb flight animal and has a post accident automatic action, may warrant a higher standard of testing (or, in this case, ANY testing).

                    I am willing to take all the information in... and continue to make the best and most educated decision I can. And I will continue to try to influence those I care about.
                    On this, we agree 100% - the conclusion is just opposite. I've said it before and I will say it again: I hope the air vest turns out to be the greatest safety product ever. I would gladly pay any price (almost) for me and my fellow riders to be safer.

                    But I'm just not there on this product. Show me the evidence and I could easily be swayed. ....But it just isn't coming and doesn't appear likely any time soon.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by deltawave View Post
                      I'm surprised, with your self-proclaimed status as a person who likes to go against the grain, that you don't simply come on board for that reason alone. :

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by ahbaumgardner View Post
                        I am fine with anecdotal evidence either way. I am not fine with a statement that one would die if they had been wearing a vest (or not). That is not anecdotal evidence. That is a factual statement without empirical proof.
                        That was not a factual statement, it was my opinion. It's ALL falls into the category of anecdotal evidence. Do you not see that?

                        I used my "story" to put out some anecdotal evidence regarding why I wouldn't wear an air vest. It was an experiment to see what the response would be. And it's been very interesting.

                        The thing with anecdotal evidence is that it is based on OPINION. Not fact. None of my statements in that story were based on fact...they were based on my impressions of an experience and what I was told by the people around me. This is exactly what you did on the first page when you relayed you experience with air vests.

                        In your statement above, you draw attention to one of the problems with anecdotal evidence. Any one can say anything they want. I say I could have died, you say the vest keeps you safe. You can't differentiate out a "level" of anecdotal evidence--it encompasses everything outside of research-based evidence and study methods.

                        However, I do think you've done a great job helping people realize through the discourse on this thread that we don't want to wear an air vest until research-based evidence and studies exist.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by KellyS View Post
                          However, I do think you've done a great job helping people realize through the discourse on this thread that we don't want to wear an air vest until research-based evidence and studies exist.
                          M E O W !!!

                          Comment

                          • Original Poster

                            ahbaumgartner, would you mind listing or summarizing the anecdotal evidence that led you to purchase and wear an air vest?

                            (I recall you had a fall in your air vest which you described as something like falling on pillows/air, but that anecdote is post-purchase. )

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by ahbaumgardner View Post
                              M E O W !!!
                              I have 6 cats...I'm used to hearing that!

                              Comment


                              • I've been thinking a lot about whether I should be eventing, hunting etc due to advancing age and old injuries which led to an educational chat with my doc a couple of weeks ago. I have two stable but ruptured vertebrae in my neck and the conversation was about minimizing risk but continuing to do what I love. We talked about surgery to fuse the vertebrae in my neck and air vests and he felt quite strongly that either was a bad idea. Quickly, the explanation was that something which immobilized one part of my spine would transfer the stress of a fall elsewhere. In particular, the air vest would put my neck at greater risk. His explanation, complete with diagrams and skeleton, made complete sense to me. While not a rider, he is a doctor in horse country and his advice was to make sure I rode the right horse !
                                Kate

                                Comment


                                • That reminds me of what my orthopedist told me after he fixed my ACL. I asked if I could ride during rehab. He said "Sure, you can ride. You just can't fall off!"
                                  Click here before you buy.

                                  Comment


                                  • Originally posted by JER View Post
                                    ahbaumgardner, would you mind listing or summarizing the anecdotal evidence that led you to purchase and wear an air vest?

                                    (I recall you had a fall in your air vest which you described as something like falling on pillows/air, but that anecdote is post-purchase. )
                                    I've talked with many people who have had falls with the vests. My own trainer told me that she is convinced that many many serious injuries have been averted by air vests. And I have talked with others, mostly ULR's who are totally convinced that the vests are a great advance in safety. So it has all been conversations with people who have had falls and know people who have had falls. I do not think these people got vests because of the advertising (I never even looked at the ads until I was told about them on this forum). Some may have gotten them because P2 provided them free (The only people I know who have been sponsored by HitAir are Canadian). But I don't think sponsorship can explain it all. Lots of people are offered saddles etc that they don't like so they don't take them... And of course, I bought mine as I cannot be sponsored or accept free merchandise and maintain amateur status.

                                    I got my vest because my trainer and others were very convincing. Intuitively, it made a lot of sense.

                                    So it is all testamony (anecdotal) and based on personal experiences.
                                    I had one fall with one (and I've accidentally set it off twice) and I fell flat on my back. The neck portion was surprising as the back of my head basically did not make contact with the ground.

                                    I have not heard of anyone who had the vest malfunction, although I am sure there will always be the chance that a vest would not implode or a lanyard would break etc. It was not until I got on this forum that I heard that there have been instances where people have been dragged and where people have received internal injuries. That is, of course, a great concern and it would be helpful to have real documentation about those injuries.

                                    I am more skeptical now than I was when I got on this forum. However, I am still not convinced that the potential harm outweighs the potential benefit and I will take whatever safety measure I can, regardless of the expense (within reason).

                                    Comment

                                    • Original Poster

                                      Originally posted by ahbaumgardner View Post
                                      I've talked with many people who have had falls with the vests. My own trainer told me that she is convinced that many many serious injuries have been averted by air vests. And I have talked with others, mostly ULR's who are totally convinced that the vests are a great advance in safety. So it has all been conversations with people who have had falls and know people who have had falls.

                                      I got my vest because my trainer and others were very convincing. Intuitively, it made a lot of sense.
                                      These are not the anecdotes I was hoping for. Oh well. I was hoping to hear some first-hand accounts of air jacket heroism. Instead I get hearsay from non-experts.

                                      Whatever the case, you're taking the advice of people you trust. In the absence of real evidence, that might be all you've got to work with. Which doesn't seem very fair, especially when we're talking about 'safety' products.

                                      Also, after reading KellyS's harrowing account of her accident, and reading about Andrea's this weekend, it did cross my mind that both riders would have been better off in an EXO.

                                      Comment


                                      • So, abaumgardner, you admit to following the same unproven technology as done in motorcycles. As I noted previously, in one of the studies, it was pointed out that there is no evidence the back protectors used in motorcycles have no proof of efficacy other than being in common use.

                                        Given your background I am rather surprised that you at łeast are not recognizing the mob effect as to the use of air jackets.

                                        At least in my case, as a member of the university safety committee, having been through safety training for everything from industrial production processes to hazardous waste, radioactive materials and explosives, and developing safety protocols for personnel working in those environments, as well as USING all sorts of PPE, I am using my experience in the use of multiple types of PPE. I am pretty sure no ULRs or BNTs have much training in that.

                                        Had you been at the air vest symposium you would have seen directly the lack of evidence of if these devices work/reduce injury although one presenter had the gall to call for their mandatory use even though he presented NO data to justify his position. Thankfully, Roy Burek (again CEO of Charles Owen and member of ASTM) shot that down very quickly using a very effective, well reasoned factually based argument.

                                        Comment


                                        • JER & Reed--

                                          I have a question--being rather unfamiliar with the EXOs, would they be appropriate for someone like me that has a nerve cord stimulator that's implanted in my side between my ribs and hip bone? The device is just under the skin, and you can easily see the square outline of the IPG, which raises the skin about 0.5 of an inch. It has two leads that are threaded back to my spine and enter the spinal column at the base of my back.

                                          It was implanted in August 2011, just a month after the accident I spoke about earlier (but not due to the accident)! Needless to say, I did not ride for quite awhile (had a revision done at the end of Sept 2011). When I did and do ride, I wear a standard vest (most of the time--I have to be truthful).

                                          The concern would be the impact of something bouncing against the IPG and causing damage to the unit. I find that the Tipperary-style vest (I know--not approved to certain standards) provides a close, comfortable fit for everyday riding and has kept me protected in the handful of "launches" I've had from my young horse. I've never had an instance, though, where I directly impacted anything with the area of my body where the IPG is.

                                          Curious to see if the EXO would be more appropriate at some point. It would need to provide a snug fit against the body (the descriptions of an "exoskeleton" make me think it doesn't?), prevent itself and other things from impacting the IPG, and fit me (short torso, 5'3, small frame--I find child size works best for me in many horse products, such as gloves and jackets).

                                          The air vest is out of the question in more ways than one but, in this case, because of the pressure it would create against the IPG (and then deflation, which would exacerbate damage to the unit). In addition, I can't even tolerate waistband pressure against it, Stinks because I had to go out and get the dreaded low-rise breeches after surgery in order to accommodate my new "waistline." The doctors joke that you don't have a bikini body anymore--I'm like, "Heck with that! I just want to be able to ride!"

                                          Thanks in advance!

                                          Comment

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