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video: a PointTwo failure to deploy

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  • I spoke with Andrea and Buck late this afternoon. She is ok, all limbs mobile and able to carry a normal conversation despite being in a lot of pain. She has suffered a concussion, six fractured ribs and collapsed lungs. Her vest saved her life.
    While I agree you're probably correct in your assumption, DW, it's still a strong statement. Probably unsubstantiated, but strong.

    And like I said, I mean no offense to the OP of that thread or to Andrea. I, like you, remain highly unconvinced that air vests save nearly as many lives as they are given credit for.

    Of course, now that I look back at it, perhaps she was referring to her standard vest?
    Always be yourself. Unless you can be Batman. Then always be Batman.

    The Grove at Five Points

    Comment


    • It is also worth speculating that her helmet might deserve a whole lot of credit as well. But helmets are no longer (happily) the subject of as much strong debate.
      Click here before you buy.

      Comment


      • I told this story on an earlier vest thread but perhaps it bears repeating...

        Two years ago I had a horse flip over on top of me backwards. I had a helmet and Tipperary vest on.

        As with a rotational fall, the horse stayed with me all the way to the ground, causing significant chest trauma. As he struggled to get off me, he stepped on my shoulder and arm; then took off at a gallop.

        I was with a friend at the time and she was convinced I was dead--I was dazed and could not catch my breath. However, I was incredibly lucky to only sustain deep tissue trauma but no fractures. After being discharged from a trauma center, I had difficulty breathing for over a week due to the injuries and my torso and arm were rather horrifying looking.

        Now, add an airvest to the equation:
        (1) The vest would not have inflated until after the chest trauma was already created because the horse would not have separated the lanyard until he got off me.
        (2) Per the trauma doctors who saw me, any additional pressure on the chest injuries would have resulted in much more severe injury or death.
        (3) When the lanyard finally would have separated, the pop would have happened right as the horse was scrambling on top of me...
        (4) If that lanyard had NOT detached, I would have been dragged (I weigh about 110 lb), with severe internal injuries, for God knows how long.

        That experience alone put me off airvests forever. My regular vest and helmet saved my life. An airvest would most likely have killed me. And I'm not being dramatic by saying that.

        And frankly, I don't put my faith in anything an ULR says--they may be great riders, but they do not have the medical or scientific knowledge or FACTS to back up their claims about how an airvest saved their lives.

        I don't know Reed, Deltawave, or JER in person, but I trust the advice of a rocket scientist , medical doctor, and "very smart person" (I don't know what JER does in real life but she knows more than I ever will!) over anecdotal rider stories or opinions.

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        • To me, the thing about airvests is that they are another to go wrong. The reason that normal vests always work is that there is abosulutly nothing to break, or malfunction. When you add a mechanical system to something you are adding possibilities for the system to fail. That makes me feel uncomfortable.

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          • Kelly, with all due respect, it is guesswork to say that the pressure of the vest would have killed you. I know you think it would have. But if the vest fits properly maybe the pressure would not have been enough to kill you.

            We will never know.

            Glad you are okay and I fully respect your decision to stay away from air vests. Our decisions about what will decrease our odds of harm are complex and a lot of factors enter in. There are very intelligent people who are against air vests. There are very intelligent people who are in favor of air vests. The jury is still out.

            I was almost killed by my helmet about 10 years ago. I was riding through the woods, down a steep embankment, and a grapevine wrapped around the helmet and somehow hooked around the brim and back of the helmet, and I was almost (seriously) ripped out of the saddle, with stirrup irons still intact. It was the most frightening near death experience I've ever had and I was so so fortunate to be able to stop the horse and get undone. I was pulled back so that I was on top of the horse's rump, with feet in stirrups, trying to kick them loose. I know it is hard to envision.... That was a freakish almost serious accident... I do not see this as analogous to your accident, as the helmet has (probably) saved my head many times over. So my decision to continue wearing it was very very easy. Your decision to not wear an air vest does not (thankfully) have multiple incidents where you and those you know have been (ostensibly) saved.

            Ann

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            • How difficult would it be to design and sew an inflatable garment in a way that forces the expansion of the garment away from its inner surfaces?

              Evidently some air vests inflate multi-directionally and so squeeze you during the event. Making one that inflates only outward should alleviate that issue, it seems.
              Last edited by caballero; Feb. 10, 2013, 01:42 PM.

              Comment


              • Caballero, the Hit Air does implode outward but it is snug when it does. Mine was not uncomfortable at all but the pinny was terribly uncomfortable. Once I got the pinny off, I could've worn it all day without discomfort. Anyone who wears an airvest with the old style, tie on pinnies: beware. You have to tie it very loosely.

                Thankfully, those pinnies are disappearing very quickly.

                Ann

                Originally posted by caballero View Post
                How difficult would it be to design and sew an inflatable garment in a way that forces the expansion of the garment away from its inner surfaces?

                Evidently some air vests inflate multidrectionally and so squeeze you during the event. Making one that inflates only outward should alleviate that issue, it seems.

                Comment


                • implode outward
                  We call that "exploding".
                  Click here before you buy.

                  Comment


                  • bahaha!!!

                    Originally posted by deltawave View Post
                    We call that "exploding".

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by ahbaumgardner View Post
                      Kelly, with all due respect, it is guesswork to say that the pressure of the vest would have killed you. I know you think it would have. But if the vest fits properly maybe the pressure would not have been enough to kill you.

                      We will never know.

                      Glad you are okay and I fully respect your decision to stay away from air vests. Our decisions about what will decrease our odds of harm are complex and a lot of factors enter in. There are very intelligent people who are against air vests. There are very intelligent people who are in favor of air vests. The jury is still out.
                      Ann
                      It wasn't my guesswork--it was the doctors' who treated me who were familiar with the types of safety equipment now used by equestrians. I do put some stock in that as they see more accidents then most of us do.

                      I also wanted to clarify that I used several examples of to show why the vest would have exacerbated an already bad situation.

                      I went back through the whole thread trying to find a specific phrase that was used (fail dangerous, I believe) and, with all due respect Ann, you've argued with almost every poster that's offered an opinion, argument, or evidence-based research to as to why the air vests are unsafe and why they choose not to wear them.

                      If you fully respect peoples' opinions as to whether or not they choose to wear air vests based on their own experiences and the scientific knowledge we do have, why do you continue to argue? It's almost as if you are trying to convince yourself that you're making the right decision in wearing one.

                      In addition, it's been interesting to see your argument change over the course of the thread as evidence of scientific facts, illegal marketing, and design flaws have been outlined.

                      Perhaps it's time to just wear the vest and not feel the need to justify your decision anymore. I'm sure you will tell the rest of us to do the same.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by KellyS View Post
                        Perhaps it's time to just wear the vest and not feel the need to justify your decision anymore. I'm sure you will tell the rest of us to do the same.
                        I haven't said anything this entire thread because I get tired of the same old arguments going around in circles. This is the same reason I avoid discussing politics. I just moved from a barn where almost every single person has a Point Two or Hit Air, and I quietly moved from Prelim to Intermediate to Advanced without buying one. If asked, I simply state that I haven't seen enough evidence that they won't do harm after the fact, and if that isn't accepted, I generally shrug and walk away.

                        I'm a grown adult, and I have no need to justify my decision to not wear an inflatable jacket to anyone.
                        Comedic Eventing on Facebook

                        Comment


                        • With all due respect, Kelly, I am only arguing because you are. I never started any thread on air vests but I do feel compelled to state my opinion, just as you do yours.

                          If an expert tells you that you would have died "if... blah blah blah...." that isn't fact. Either way. People say air vests saved their lives. You argue with this. Then you say a vest would have killed you, if you had been wearing one. I argue with that.

                          As for my opinion changing based on new information. Are we now attacking people for taking in new information and changing their opinions? Really????? OMG.

                          So perhaps it's time for YOU to just NOT wear the vest and not feel the need to justify YOUR decision, and attack those who choose to do so. I'm tired of hearing all this conjecture and when it turned into "if I had... I would have died...." it was over the edge. No expert could make that sort of prediction. Geeze....

                          Comment


                          • I do think it's fair to point out that a doctor saying that a vest would or would NOT have made things worse is speculating. Karen O'Connor's physicians were reported as saying the vest saved her from worse injuries, and I would (and did) point out that this is SPECULATION. Expert speculation, perhaps, and it's certainly allowed (with all the cautions I've gone on about ad nauseam) but it's speculation all the same. So another physician saying something that seems opposite--what to make of that? Well, the circumstances, the type of injury, etc. all make a difference. But until we have a large accumulation of evidence, it is still, well, you get the idea.

                            Me, I don't go around hollering at people who wear vests (although I have been known to pointedly ask people why they don't wear helmets--I am old enough to not mind being thought a pushy broad) but I won't stand by and let a bunch of nonsense be put forward in place of data. It's not just vests, it's all forms of pseudoscience that get me riled.
                            Click here before you buy.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by deltawave View Post
                              I do think it's fair to point out that a doctor saying that a vest would or would NOT have made things worse is speculating. Karen O'Connor's physicians were reported as saying the vest saved her from worse injuries, and I would (and did) point out that this is SPECULATION. Expert speculation, perhaps, but speculation all the same. So another physician saying something that seems opposite--what to make of that? Well, the circumstances, the type of injury, etc. all make a difference. But until we have a large accumulation of evidence, it is still, well, you get the idea.
                              ^^^ not only that, this was a statement on the basis of the absence of the vest...

                              We need data. Much more data. We have seen a lot of personal testimony and that's it, right?

                              Comment


                              • We need data. Much more data. We have seen a lot of personal testimony and that's it, right?
                                Well, I've also seen the misleading advertising that no longer is allowed on the websites. That's enough to make me never buy a vest from Point Two. But I'm still not sold on the technology as is. Rarely are the first iterations of a product the ones that wind up being successful over the long term. I don't wish to be anyone's guinea pig, especially when I have to pay for the "privilege".
                                Click here before you buy.

                                Comment


                                • Originally posted by ahbaumgardner View Post
                                  ^what she said^
                                  I've heard this from EMT's consistently, and I heard it the day I fell at VAHT last spring. The EMT was nearby and swore that if I hadn't had the airvest on, I would've been injured. Anecdotal. Yes. But I will take that. It's the same reason I wear a helmet. I've wacked my head very hard in the past and my sense was that if I hadn't worn a helmet, I would've been seriously hurt.

                                  The pros I've talked with swear by the airvests. And I don't think they do so simply because they are given the airvests. I give them much more credit than that. It's the anecdotal evidence they've accrued, through their own falls, and witnessing the falls of others.
                                  This is from the first page of the thread...and 10 pages later at least we all agree on the same thing...anecdotal evidence gets us nowhere and we should not be basing decisions that affect OUR LIVES on it.

                                  Glad we've cleared that up!

                                  The only way we truly know whether we would have been killed or not is if it actually happens.

                                  Comment


                                  • Originally posted by KellyS View Post
                                    This is from the first page of the thread...and 10 pages later at least we all agree on the same thing...anecdotal evidence gets us nowhere and we should not be basing decisions that affect OUR LIVES on it.

                                    Glad we've cleared that up!
                                    I do NOT agree with you on this, Kelly. In the absence of evidence, one way or the other, I will take anecdotal evidence. It beats no evidence at all...


                                    I did not eat popcorn yesterday.
                                    I did not get sick.
                                    Therefore, popcorn would have made me sick.

                                    Comment


                                    • Good for you!

                                      Comment


                                      • In the absence of evidence, one way or the other, I will take anecdotal evidence. It beats no evidence at all...
                                        Anecdotal evidence has been responsible for some BIG "whoopses" in the annals of medicine. Of course it is up to each of us to decide, but the anecdotes I've seen are entirely unconvincing, and some of them are darn compelling in the opposite direction.

                                        Of course the equine product and supplement industry relies heavily on the fact that I and others who think similarly are in a VERY small minority. So if nothing else, a healthy and thriving horse "stuff" retail economy thanks you for your patronage!
                                        Click here before you buy.

                                        Comment


                                        • Wow. 10 pages of discourse re rider safety, sporadically interrrupted by a few posts lamenting the fate of the horse in that fall. JMHO, but I think it should be the other way around. Carry on.

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