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Let's Discuss: Shannon Lilley's 4 days of feedback on David O'C Training Sessions/EN

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  • Let's Discuss: Shannon Lilley's 4 days of feedback on David O'C Training Sessions/EN

    First off links:

    NOTE** Day 3 and 4 Added***

    http://eventingnation.com/home/shannon-lilley.html

    http://eventingnation.com/home/shann...ons-day-2.html

    http://eventingnation.com/home/shann...ons-day-3.html

    http://eventingnation.com/home/shann...ons-day-4.html

    First reaction: FINALLY lecture sessions!!!! YES!!! Knowledge is more than just being able to ride. I really agree with some theory lessons.

    Second: Ok so now DOC is officially called "Coach" Ok.... that will take a little time. I still am seeing Craig T. Nelson whenever I read the word "coach."

    Third.... While this is very cool I would love to hear more about how he will approach the Big Names like Boyd, Phillip and others.

    Anyone else?

    ~Emily
    Last edited by Xctrygirl; Jan. 25, 2013, 08:18 PM.
    "Courage is not the absence of fear but rather the judgment that something is more important than fear. The brave may not live forever but the cautious do not live at all." ~2001 The Princess Diaries

  • #2
    Kind of odd that he would teach under 25 High Performance eventers how to wrap correctly. Sounds very much like the young h/j people going to GM's Horsemaster Clinic.

    I'd have expected eventing young ones not to need something that basic. And to know the German Dressage Training Scale.

    I haven't read day 2 yet, so will probably edit this post after I do.
    "I'm a lumberjack, and I'm okay."
    Thread killer Extraordinaire

    Comment


    • #3
      I liked everything I read on both days. The fact is, the man has a plan....and is executing it. I liked the way he lead the USET, respect his horsemanship, and think we are going to see a huge difference in the ribbons and medals we get now. The fact of the matter is, this guy has the skill set to regain medals for USA. Very happy to see that he is going about it thoughtfully and wasting no time....of course, I would not expect anything else from DOC!

      Comment


      • #4
        I'm happy to hear that he knows that this will take time. At the Annual Meeting he seemed a little too overconfident that we were just going to run in there and start taking medals so its good to know that he is actually being realistic about this being a long term process.

        As far as the Under 25 group goes... I was rather appalled that they couldn't even name the steps of the training scale nevermind what they mean and how to execute them. These riders are so extremely lucky to be where they are and those kinds of things make me think that they are not taking this opportunity as seriously as they should be. They are the next generation of eventing and they should really start acting that way. Its not all about the riding, they should be reading, and watching videos, and learning as much as they can. Not to sound whiny or complainy, but I am young enough to be in that under 25 group and I would kill to be there. I work my butt off every day so that one day I can ride at the upper levels and it is truly disappointing to me to know that people who can't even name the training scale or wrap a leg properly are getting these training opportunities. Okay, rant over.

        I like that DOC has a plan, I think a plan is always an important thing. I also love the lecture sessions and the fact that DOC has been observing both the winning countries (ahem...Germany) and also taking some notes from other sports. Most importantly I love that he seems to be creating horsemen and not just riders.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by vineyridge View Post
          Kind of odd that he would teach under 25 High Performance eventers how to wrap correctly.
          I don't know many younger risers of that caliber, but younger people in general are frequently lacking in basic knowledge. I frequently get asked how I know so much and I reply "I READ!" Seeking knowledge is not something that a lot of the young'uns at my barn have. Even the ones with great aspirations.

          Ex: One girl wants to move up to prelim this year. Every time she wraps her horse, I check them. Damn near always loose enough to be pointless (e.g. won't fall down on their own, but a light tug on the bottom pulls them down). She regularly goes out east to ride with a BNR. Another girl is very concerned with her horse's lack of topline muscle. So she fights to pull his head down and forgets that she's been told repeatedly that she needs to keep him in front of her leg. He's taken to sticking his tongue out and grinding his teeth constantly. She still can't take what she's told in lessons and apply it on her own.

          OTOH, there's a girl who's just going starter who reads everything she can and thus her knowledge far surpasses her practical ability at this point. I think she will be very successful when she's older.

          I've noticed that the biggest problem is that riders don't always know that they're lacking something, let alone what that something is.

          Disclaimer: My knowledge far surpasses my ability too. But I arrogantly think that at least I have some insight into what I'm missing.

          Comment


          • #6
            You are all assuming that the kids didn't know how to wrap. Shannon didn't state that the riders didn't know how to wrap, but that David gave a horse management lecture in bandaging and grooming and checked to make sure they were all doing it properly.

            Comment


            • #7
              Pony Club! Everyone needs to be a pony club grad, and if they start late in life, get the books and follow the program. JMHO.

              Originally posted by eqsiu View Post
              I don't know many younger risers of that caliber, but younger people in general are frequently lacking in basic knowledge. I frequently get asked how I know so much and I reply "I READ!" Seeking knowledge is not something that a lot of the young'uns at my barn have. Even the ones with great aspirations.

              Ex: One girl wants to move up to prelim this year. Every time she wraps her horse, I check them. Damn near always loose enough to be pointless (e.g. won't fall down on their own, but a light tug on the bottom pulls them down). She regularly goes out east to ride with a BNR. Another girl is very concerned with her horse's lack of topline muscle. So she fights to pull his head down and forgets that she's been told repeatedly that she needs to keep him in front of her leg. He's taken to sticking his tongue out and grinding his teeth constantly. She still can't take what she's told in lessons and apply it on her own.

              OTOH, there's a girl who's just going starter who reads everything she can and thus her knowledge far surpasses her practical ability at this point. I think she will be very successful when she's older.

              I've noticed that the biggest problem is that riders don't always know that they're lacking something, let alone what that something is.

              Disclaimer: My knowledge far surpasses my ability too. But I arrogantly think that at least I have some insight into what I'm missing.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by eqsiu View Post
                I don't know many younger risers of that caliber, but younger people in general are frequently lacking in basic knowledge. I frequently get asked how I know so much and I reply "I READ!" Seeking knowledge is not something that a lot of the young'uns at my barn have. Even the ones with great aspirations.

                Ex: One girl wants to move up to prelim this year. Every time she wraps her horse, I check them. Damn near always loose enough to be pointless (e.g. won't fall down on their own, but a light tug on the bottom pulls them down). She regularly goes out east to ride with a BNR. Another girl is very concerned with her horse's lack of topline muscle. So she fights to pull his head down and forgets that she's been told repeatedly that she needs to keep him in front of her leg. He's taken to sticking his tongue out and grinding his teeth constantly. She still can't take what she's told in lessons and apply it on her own.

                OTOH, there's a girl who's just going starter who reads everything she can and thus her knowledge far surpasses her practical ability at this point. I think she will be very successful when she's older.

                I've noticed that the biggest problem is that riders don't always know that they're lacking something, let alone what that something is.

                Disclaimer: My knowledge far surpasses my ability too. But I arrogantly think that at least I have some insight into what I'm missing.
                THIS is exactly what I am talking about! I'll go to the barn and be like "Did you see that great article on such and such website" or "Have you read this book" and everyone just looks at me like I have three heads.

                I completely understand what you mean, I'm only going Training right now but, without sounding cocky and arrogant, I feel like I have knowledge that would far surpass a lot of people at Prelim+ strictly because I am interested in all aspects of horse care and I think the riding part is just a small fraction of what makes a great eventer.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by ahbaumgardner View Post
                  Pony Club! Everyone needs to be a pony club grad, and if they start late in life, get the books and follow the program. JMHO.
                  Absolutely agree. There is a reason for Pony Club and it really needs to get more support in the community. I know my kids get an attitude about pony club as if they are lesser riders but I'll put their skills up a the top with all the other Olympic grooms I know and that is because of Pony Club. It doesn't let the skip a step. the certification indicates the lowestlevel of their knowledge and other areas can be far higher.

                  they've done D4k and the new USHJA and comment that Pony Club is much more thorough. the other programs are good add ons but don't replace the base. All young riders and riders need it.

                  I wish more adults would volunteer to help with an educational program like Pony Club.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by ahbaumgardner View Post
                    Pony Club! Everyone needs to be a pony club grad, and if they start late in life, get the books and follow the program. JMHO.
                    Only if the Pony Club in your area is a good one. I've been witness to some pretty crappy PCs, and the very major lack of knowledge and just general horse management that were rampant in them. Pony Club is only as good if the Pony Club is good.

                    And not every kid gets to join PC (YB raises her hand...none in my area). That being said, I bought the manuals and read them, and everything else I could get my hands on when I was a kid....
                    Amanda

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Agree with PC; most of them are great, though not all. And while the kids/instructors can be awesome, sometimes the quality of the PC experience is dictated by the parents involved...not always for the better!

                      Some of this goes back to the WS debate that rages here. At an established ULR's barn, horsemanship is a big part of the WS experience. It's not just about cleaning stalls; it's hands on working with great vets and farriers, bandaging and otherwise caring for elite athletes, managing time and resources efficiently. It's not just about riding-- anyone can get that in lessons. It's the complete immersion in a big-time program from the ground up, hopefully not just learning "what" to do, but why and when.
                      “A clever person solves a problem. A wise person avoids it.”
                      ? Albert Einstein

                      ~AJ~

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by ahbaumgardner View Post
                        Pony Club! Everyone needs to be a pony club grad, and if they start late in life, get the books and follow the program. JMHO.
                        They're all pony clubbers. Which says something about the teaching in this club...

                        I have offered my assistance (graduate H-A from this club!) but the meeting organizers don't seem interested. I've taken to offering help to the clubbers themselves. I end up helping the younger members quite a bit.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by EventerAJ View Post
                          not just learning "what" to do, but why and when.
                          THESE are the things I try to tell the young'uns.

                          Fun example. New PCer tells me about being quizzed on horse colors. She says brown. She's told that brown is NOT a horse color. Which is interesting, because if I took my horse to another country, they would likely says she's brown. We call it dark bay, but brown, seal brown, and black bay would all work to describe her. Sort of how I never knew what sorrel was until the vet put it down on my horse's coggins. I think the kids need to know what is unconventional but still correct, rather than dealing in absolutes. With the bandaging example, do you need to wrap the other leg? Why is the "right" direction best? Why should you not use the thin quilted wraps? The why questions are harder for many to answer.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Yep – Love the new approach DOC is taking – and I also immediately thought – PONY CLUB

                            So glad my non horsey parents enrolled me as an 8 year old. I loved knowdown (now quiz), studied studied studied – was able to do rounds with a vet and farrier through Pony Club, rode with the top trainers in the area through Pony Club (Woodside CA a wonderful club in the early 1990s), gained working student positions through Pony Club.

                            And more than anything else was taught to be INDEPENDENT, a horsemen and not just a rider. This seems to be really lacking in so many training programs.
                            APPSOLUTE CHOCKLATE - Photo by Kathy Colman

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              [edited to add] I guess I never had first hand experience which such a terrible club as the ones the kids you know ride with. I have been involved with most of the clubs in the CA bay area - and they are exelent.

                              Okay - will try not to derail this too much, but your examples below, in my experience is the value of Pony Club, they teach the WHYs.


                              Originally posted by eqsiu View Post
                              THESE are the things I try to tell the young'uns.
                              Fun example. New PCer tells me about being quizzed on horse colors. She says brown. She's told that brown is NOT a horse color. Which is interesting, because if I took my horse to another country, they would likely says she's brown. We call it dark bay, but brown, seal brown, and black bay would all work to describe her.
                              Pony Club taught me brown is a color.

                              This Pony Club study guide clearly lists brown as a color

                              Originally posted by eqsiu View Post
                              With the bandaging example, do you need to wrap the other leg? Why is the "right" direction best? Why should you not use the thin quilted wraps? The why questions are harder for many to answer.
                              Pony Club taught me you wrap the other leg, because if you are treating an injury, the odds are that the horse will favor that leg, therefore stressing the other leg - wrap it for support as well (also, to prevent swelling from lack of movement if the horse is injuried). You wrap to the right, because as you bring the wrap around the front of the leg, that is when you pull taught (rather than when you are passing over the tendons). Use thicker pillow wraps as you are less likely to get binding pressure or pressure spots. This was all explained during wrapping lessons.

                              These are things Pony Club taught me, and my trainer reinforced. But being as she ran a business, and had many horses to ride, and lessons to teach, she did not have the time to thoroughly cover the little horsemanship details that Pony Club emphasizes.

                              If PC is falling by the wayside, trainers need to pick up the slack if we are going to develop well educated horsemen.
                              APPSOLUTE CHOCKLATE - Photo by Kathy Colman

                              Comment


                              • #16
                                Originally posted by Appsolute View Post
                                [edited to add] I guess I never had first hand experience which such a terrible club as the ones the kids you know ride with. I have been involved with most of the clubs in the CA bay area - and they are exelent.

                                Okay - will try not to derail this too much, but your examples below, in my experience is the value of Pony Club, they teach the WHYs.


                                I was trying to make a point more about the local club, but didn't do it very well. When I was in it we had MUCH better people running it. Now there are new-to-horses-parents and one woman whose goal in life is to bully as many children as she can (as best I can tell). The kids dislike her. Many of the parents too. She has no kids in the club. Yet still they allow her to run the thing any way she chooses. When I was in PC, we had several people from every sort of group of us reach national ratings. Now there is one C-1 because the kids seem to quit about D-3 because pony club is so unenjoyable. Yellowbritches made the point much better than I did.

                                Also, the most common opposing limb lameness is founder, so I'm not sure that supporting the other leg is all that necessary. However, I things in even numbers better...

                                Also also, the ponies in that study guide are damn cute.

                                Comment

                                • Original Poster

                                  #17
                                  Originally posted by Appsolute View Post
                                  [edited to add]Pony Club taught me you wrap the other leg, because if you are treating an injury, the odds are that the horse will favor that leg, therefore stressing the other leg - wrap it for support as well (also, to prevent swelling from lack of movement if the horse is injuried). You wrap to the right, because as you bring the wrap around the front of the leg, that is when you pull taught (rather than when you are passing over the tendons). Use thicker pillow wraps as you are less likely to get binding pressure or pressure spots. This was all explained during wrapping lessons.
                                  ((Bolding by me))

                                  If you did wrap this way, 50% of your wraps would be done in the "wrong" direction. (From my education and experience)

                                  What I was taught over and over was that if you imagine yourself right below the girth's lowest point of the belly squatting facing the horses head, your arms should do a breast stroke swim motion forward and around to the outside (So to the left for the left leg and to the right for the right leg) so that your wraps are always going from the inside out. NEVER from the outside in. ) your end piece of velcro or fabric should be able to "point" to the outside of the hind leg as it finishes on the outside, it should never point to the inside of the hock.

                                  ~Emily
                                  "Courage is not the absence of fear but rather the judgment that something is more important than fear. The brave may not live forever but the cautious do not live at all." ~2001 The Princess Diaries

                                  Comment

                                  • Original Poster

                                    #18
                                    Also side note... for a fun trick...

                                    Ask any person under the level of Prelim and the age of about 20 what their horses's Standing TPR is? Then ask what the regular PSI should be on their truck or trailer tires?

                                    Ha ha ha ha.

                                    Stumped doesn't even cover it.

                                    Emily
                                    "Courage is not the absence of fear but rather the judgment that something is more important than fear. The brave may not live forever but the cautious do not live at all." ~2001 The Princess Diaries

                                    Comment


                                    • #19
                                      Originally posted by Xctrygirl View Post
                                      Also side note... for a fun trick...

                                      Ask any person under the level of Prelim and the age of about 20 what their horses's Standing TPR is? Then ask what the regular PSI should be on their truck or trailer tires?

                                      Ha ha ha ha.

                                      Stumped doesn't even cover it.

                                      Emily
                                      31 and haven't actually evented in 10 years (new horse may never have the brain for it *sigh*):

                                      don't know (shame on me) and 75 psi in the truck (my mother bought some crazy heavy duty tires worth their weight in gold) and 32 psi in the trailer.

                                      Comment


                                      • #20
                                        Also, if you roll your bandages tightly enough and don't pull on the leg, you can wrap either direction without harming your horse. A good wrap is a good wrap (this from a PC national examiner).

                                        Comment

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