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Let's Discuss: Shannon Lilley's 4 days of feedback on David O'C Training Sessions/EN

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  • #21
    Originally posted by Xctrygirl View Post
    Then ask what the regular PSI should be on their truck or trailer tires?
    The answer to this is 'it depends'. No stock answer.

    Comment


    • #22
      Originally posted by eqsiu View Post
      Also, if you roll your bandages tightly enough and don't pull on the leg, you can wrap either direction without harming your horse. A good wrap is a good wrap (this from a PC national examiner).
      Yes! And I am sooo tired of hearing about backward wrapping, and this from a child who was still wearing square pants when I bought my first custom boots.

      And those tires, they also need to aware that that 75 PSI on a hot summer day is not 75 on a cold winter morning.

      Back to the OP-, David looks promising.
      Some riders change their horse, they change their saddle, they change their teacher; they never change themselves.

      Remember the horse does all the work, we just sit there and look pretty.

      Comment


      • #23
        Wrap tendons to the inside, was the way I was taught...but that was back when we weren't allowed to have velcro on our standing wraps... From a broader point of view, some pony club stuff is awesome. Some is not so realistic in the real world. And some I just plain never ever have used again (homemade spider bandage anyone?).

        That being said, from experience having a horse at OCET for awhile, I recall that they were fanatical about good wrapping, so not surprised that David said something about it.

        Comment


        • #24
          Originally posted by JFCeventer View Post
          I'm happy to hear that he knows that this will take time. At the Annual Meeting he seemed a little too overconfident that we were just going to run in there and start taking medals so its good to know that he is actually being realistic about this being a long term process.

          As far as the Under 25 group goes... I was rather appalled that they couldn't even name the steps of the training scale nevermind what they mean and how to execute them. These riders are so extremely lucky to be where they are and those kinds of things make me think that they are not taking this opportunity as seriously as they should be. They are the next generation of eventing and they should really start acting that way. Its not all about the riding, they should be reading, and watching videos, and learning as much as they can. Not to sound whiny or complainy, but I am young enough to be in that under 25 group and I would kill to be there. I work my butt off every day so that one day I can ride at the upper levels and it is truly disappointing to me to know that people who can't even name the training scale or wrap a leg properly are getting these training opportunities. Okay, rant over.

          I like that DOC has a plan, I think a plan is always an important thing. I also love the lecture sessions and the fact that DOC has been observing both the winning countries (ahem...Germany) and also taking some notes from other sports. Most importantly I love that he seems to be creating horsemen and not just riders.
          As far as the training scale goes, there are many riders who can recite them verbatim and are poor riders and poor trainers, and will never develop talent. Many great horsemen and women work at an intuitive level, and apply them daily without being able to name them. Knowing the scale by heart is simply an academic understanding.
          Also, in journalism, don't believe everything you read. I am sure other first hand accounts would describe things differently.

          Comment


          • #25
            One thing about those lectures is the David asks questions in a way that demands a very specific answer. (I've attended a couple.) Unfortunately it had the potential to make attendees feel like they were back in grade school, guessing what the teacher wanted and hoping they didn't sound stupid if they got it wrong. (Or not putting up their hands at all in that case.)

            This seems to be echoed in Shannon's blog:

            I could not decide if the group was intimidated to speak up and answer the questions like what are the levels of the training scale or what is the training scale, or if they really did not know the answers.
            Blugal

            You never know what kind of obsessive compulsive crazy person you are until another person imitates your behaviour at a three-day. --Gry2Yng

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            • #26
              Originally posted by Blugal View Post
              One thing about those lectures is the David asks questions in a way that demands a very specific answer. (I've attended a couple.) Unfortunately it had the potential to make attendees feel like they were back in grade school, guessing what the teacher wanted and hoping they didn't sound stupid if they got it wrong. (Or not putting up their hands at all in that case.)

              This seems to be echoed in Shannon's blog:
              I agree with this.

              It's also more difficult when you've just met someone and you don't speak the finer points of their language. You don't know DOC or how he expresses these concepts so it's hard to answer with certainty.

              With more experience, DOC may learn to pose his questions in a more inclusive, inviting way, especially in a situation like team training that represents considerable 'risk' to the attendees. No one wants to put a foot wrong.

              (Years ago, I decided that, in every class or learning situation, I would always be the person who'd break the ice and answer anyway and (usually) get it all wrong. I've never regretted this decision. )

              Comment


              • #27
                Originally posted by horsehand View Post
                As far as the training scale goes, there are many riders who can recite them verbatim and are poor riders and poor trainers, and will never develop talent. Many great horsemen and women work at an intuitive level, and apply them daily without being able to name them. Knowing the scale by heart is simply an academic understanding.
                Also, in journalism, don't believe everything you read. I am sure other first hand accounts would describe things differently.
                Fair enough, I agree with you 100% that knowing the training scale does not make someone an amazing trainer/rider/horseman. And I also agree that it is possible things may have been taken out of context or misreported. Let's put it this way: IF these kids do not know the training scale or how to interpret or apply the steps of the training scale than that is disappointing. But because this is just based on one person's report than I am with you that we can not make assumptions.

                Originally posted by Blugal View Post
                One thing about those lectures is the David asks questions in a way that demands a very specific answer. (I've attended a couple.) Unfortunately it had the potential to make attendees feel like they were back in grade school, guessing what the teacher wanted and hoping they didn't sound stupid if they got it wrong. (Or not putting up their hands at all in that case.)

                This seems to be echoed in Shannon's blog:
                Originally posted by JER View Post
                I agree with this.

                It's also more difficult when you've just met someone and you don't speak the finer points of their language. You don't know DOC or how he expresses these concepts so it's hard to answer with certainty.

                With more experience, DOC may learn to pose his questions in a more inclusive, inviting way, especially in a situation like team training that represents considerable 'risk' to the attendees. No one wants to put a foot wrong.

                (Years ago, I decided that, in every class or learning situation, I would always be the person who'd break the ice and answer anyway and (usually) get it all wrong. I've never regretted this decision. )
                I also can certainly see this side of things as well. I am positive that we have all been in a situation where we must weigh looking like we don't know what we are talking about against possibly being wrong, especially in front of people we look up to.

                Comment


                • #28
                  No excuses. Study your instructor's methods, audit a clinic. They have known for some time he was to be the coach. Hell, there's a freakin' ton of video around from old clinics, event camp, all kinds of stuff.

                  My question is, where are you? Are you in the place you need to be, to get the most out of this time, this experience, this instructor and situation? Are you prepared to ride for him and for the team? If you are truly serious about getting ahead, if you have taken the steps to be selected to a training session, if you WANT to be there, you have to cover every base, be prepared for any question, come with an open mind and heart -- humble yourself -- and ride your ass off. Read his book and read the chapters he wrote on how he got started at the USET and what he went through to ride for Jack Le Goff.

                  (If you want to really be prepared for a life with horses, get thee to a racetrack and work for a busy barn for 60-90 days. You'll stuff about 10 years of experience under your belt plus become bilingual in about two months. I think a racing background can prepare you for just about anything in the horse world, personally.)
                  Proud & Permanent Student Of The Long Road
                  Read me: EN (http://eventingnation.com/author/annemarch/) and HJU (http://horsejunkiesunited.com/author/holly-covey/)

                  Comment

                  • Original Poster

                    #29
                    Originally posted by retreadeventer View Post
                    (If you want to really be prepared for a life with horses, get thee to a racetrack and work for a busy barn for 60-90 days. You'll stuff about 10 years of experience under your belt plus become bilingual in about two months. I think a racing background can prepare you for just about anything in the horse world, personally.)

                    You know I have droned on for eons about my time at the track, but I'm not sure that folks know how I got there... Jimmy W told me to go. Why? Because its the place to learn about pace, how to control pace without your hands in their mouths and to experience a variety of balancing scenarios.

                    I agree 1000% with Retread. I stayed a long longer than 90 days and still miss it.

                    ~Emily
                    "Courage is not the absence of fear but rather the judgment that something is more important than fear. The brave may not live forever but the cautious do not live at all." ~2001 The Princess Diaries

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                    • #30
                      It is unfortunate that the Shannon Lilly didn't just report on the facts and details of the clinic, without interjecting her personal opinions. It has started unnecessary discussion and criticisms of somethings that just were not issues to anybody but her.

                      Comment


                      • #31
                        Originally posted by horsehand View Post
                        It is unfortunate that the Shannon Lilly didn't just report on the facts and details of the clinic, without interjecting her personal opinions. It has started unnecessary discussion and criticisms of somethings that just were not issues to anybody but her.
                        I mildly agree. I at least would have liked to see more about what the riders worked on, similar to the COTH write-ups of the George Morris horsemanship clinics. I watched the Captain's training sessions in Ocala last year (and the man knows how to ride and teach, if not coach per se...) and learned a ton. For instance, his riders didn't come off a 20 meter circle until the horses were supple through the rib cage on both reins, both directions. Shockingly, many of our top horses weren't fully supply. I went home and immediately improved my dressage by implementing the verbal instructions the Captain gave to the riders to fix it.

                        I know David is just as capable a trainer. I'd like to have heard more about what he was focusing on as important basic blocks for horses and riders.

                        Comment


                        • #32
                          Hear, hear Retreadeventer! (or is it Read, read?) Emily too!
                          They don't call me frugal for nothing.
                          Proud and achy member of the Eventing Grannies clique.

                          Comment


                          • #33
                            Originally posted by Xctrygirl View Post
                            Also side note... for a fun trick...

                            Ask any person under the level of Prelim and the age of about 20 what their horses's Standing TPR is? Then ask what the regular PSI should be on their truck or trailer tires?

                            Ha ha ha ha.

                            Stumped doesn't even cover it.

                            Emily
                            Ha! I doubt many know what PSI, or TPR even stand for, much less what the correct answer is. As far as wrapping.

                            We went to an event, 11 horses, 7 riders. Not one person, other then Melissa and I, knew how to wrap legs. Getting in at ten, we wrapped all 11 personally. One owned by a third year vet student.

                            Over next few days, as part of that weeks group lessons, we had them practice wrapping on each other. Till the parents came screaming about lessons NOT to be used to learn THAT STUFF. We charged after that. Amazing how many parents wanted them to learn "that stuff" then!
                            May the sun shine on you daily, and your worries be gone with the wind.
                            www.mmceventing.com

                            Comment


                            • #34
                              Enough with the Pony Club. Yay if your parents could afford it and you had a horse. MANY people (me) did not fall into that category yet still managed to learn horsemanship (gasp!). There are many roads to Rome.

                              People are like horses: they are individuals! Some will take initiative and some will not. I may be over 30 now, but I knew what TPR and PSI were (and who has trailer tires riding on 25 psi???) when I was 15. So I find generalizations like that just as insulting as other BNT's generalizations that no amateurs know how to work or be horsemen.

                              I agree, that I wish there was more detail on the sessions themselves that I could learn from instead of someone's aghasted opinions, but it's interesting to read nonetheless.
                              Life doesn't have perfect footing.

                              Bloggily entertain yourself with our adventures (and disasters):
                              We Are Flying Solo

                              Comment


                              • #35
                                Well, I would have liked to have heard more about what the group worked on too, but I like how he seems to be trying to establish a level playing field where everyone knows what is expected. I hope that further training sessions will go into more detail.

                                Since I assume that all of these riders are trying to fast track to being Team riders, I think that the two accounts of a speech that Boyd Martin gave (in EN) would apply, especially dealing with the sacrifice and hard work required to get to and stay on that track. Also, I believe Denny's book deals specifically with that too.

                                I don't anticipate seeing him have the older past Olympic riders doing some of this stuff, but I'll bet he'll be honing in on their weaknesses and comparing training methods, etc. I think this will be interesting.

                                Comment


                                • #36
                                  It doesn't matter which DIRECTION you wrap, as long as you apply the tension consistntly, and only "pull" against the bone, not the tendon.

                                  Not-So-Recent veterinary research has shown that there is no benefit to "wrapping the other leg" in the vast majority of situations. Another piece of "recieved truth" hits the dust.
                                  Janet

                                  chief feeder and mucker for Music, Spy, Belle and Tiara. Someone else is now feeding and mucking for Chief and Brain (both foxhunting now).

                                  Comment


                                  • #37


                                    I've heard that as well Janet. But I still wrap both... out of the fear taht the research may be wrong.

                                    It's sort of like the fact that when atop a horse who pees, I still stand up in the stirrups. Research has shown that this makes no difference whatsoever. But what if?

                                    And wildlifer, I don't anyone was saying that pony club is the only way to learn. There are many routes... and for the record, we had kids in our pony club who had no pony of their own and no financial backing. They worked their butts off and borrowed a pony. There was a will and there was a way.

                                    Comment


                                    • #38
                                      What I take away from Shannon Lily's reports is that DOC is sending a message that it is not enough to be just a rider on a nice horse. I think the other message he is sending is that the difference between good and great is in the attention to details.

                                      A new leader has to set the tone and expectations and I think he is doing just that.
                                      A person is smart. People are dumb, panicky dangerous animals and you know it.

                                      Comment


                                      • #39
                                        You know, I too wished Shannon's reports had been more about what he taught, but I'm really pretty excited about having DOC as a coach. I've had a few clinics with him, and I don't think the riders should have been afraid to speak up. I do think they should have been WAY smarter than to chat and giggle on the sidelines while he was teaching and they were supposed to be listening. Especially since this was apparently on their fourth day with him. Hello? How rude! And don't think he'll forget who was paying attention and who wasn't--he'll see it as a lack of effort, which is something he hates more than anything. If your goals are to ride as a amateur, that's fine, but do your best in front of him always. That's what he expects. These kids want to be future Olympians--they ought to be radically rethinking what it means to do their best, and be putting their butts to the wheel.

                                        I've been really annoyed by the entitlement attitude I've seen in some--not all--young riders, and I love it that we've got a coach who won't stand for it.

                                        David's the bomb. I think he's been working his whole life toward this job, and I expect he'll be fabulous.

                                        Comment


                                        • #40
                                          Originally posted by Xctrygirl View Post
                                          Second: Ok so now DOC is officially called "Coach" Ok.... that will take a little time. I still am seeing Craig T. Nelson whenever I read the word "coach."
                                          Some thoughts on this -- and I'd love to hear others' thoughts, too:

                                          1. Did DOC ask to be addressed as 'President' at USEF?

                                          2. On a more serious note, what does this signify to the listees? The former coach was imperious and (sort of) titled, although he didn't ask that his athletes call him 'Captain' or 'Coach'. Now DOC is giving himself a title.

                                          3. I'm not being a smart-ass here. I think forms of address are important in any teaching or coaching relationship. It's a way to convey distance or intimacy or equality or superiority or chain-of-command or level of achievement or education.

                                          4. 'Coach' covers an array of people and positions from volunteer parent to PhD (yes, there is such a thing). I'll assume that DOC thought about this at length, as he seems to have thought out his program quite thoroughly. He did not, AFAIK, ask the Canadians to call him Coach.

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