• Welcome to the Chronicle Forums.
    Please complete your profile. The forums and the rest of www.chronofhorse.com has single sign-in, so your log in information for one will automatically work for the other. Disclaimer: The opinions expressed here are the views of the individual and do not necessarily reflect the views and opinions of The Chronicle of the Horse.

Announcement

Collapse

Forum rules and no-advertising policy

As a participant on this forum, it is your responsibility to know and follow our rules. Please read this message in its entirety.

Board Rules

1. You’re responsible for what you say.
As outlined in Section 230 of the Communications Decency Act, The Chronicle of the Horse and its affiliates, as well Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd., the developers of vBulletin, are not legally responsible for statements made in the forums.

This is a public forum viewed by a wide spectrum of people, so please be mindful of what you say and who might be reading it—details of personal disputes are likely better handled privately. While posters are legally responsible for their statements, the moderators may in their discretion remove or edit posts that violate these rules. Users have the ability to modify or delete their own messages after posting, but administrators generally will not delete posts, threads or accounts upon request.

Outright inflammatory, vulgar, harassing, malicious or otherwise inappropriate statements and criminal charges unsubstantiated by a reputable news source or legal documentation will not be tolerated and will be dealt with at the discretion of the moderators.

2. Conversations in horse-related forums should be horse-related.
The forums are a wonderful source of information and support for members of the horse community. While it’s understandably tempting to share information or search for input on other topics upon which members might have a similar level of knowledge, members must maintain the focus on horses.

3. Keep conversations productive, on topic and civil.
Discussion and disagreement are inevitable and encouraged; personal insults, diatribes and sniping comments are unproductive and unacceptable. Whether a subject is light-hearted or serious, keep posts focused on the current topic and of general interest to other participants of that thread. Utilize the private message feature or personal email where appropriate to address side topics or personal issues not related to the topic at large.

4. No advertising in the discussion forums.
Posts in the discussion forums directly or indirectly advertising horses, jobs, items or services for sale or wanted will be removed at the discretion of the moderators. Use of the private messaging feature or email addresses obtained through users’ profiles for unsolicited advertising is not permitted.

Company representatives may participate in discussions and answer questions about their products or services, or suggest their products on recent threads if they fulfill the criteria of a query. False "testimonials" provided by company affiliates posing as general consumers are not appropriate, and self-promotion of sales, ad campaigns, etc. through the discussion forums is not allowed.

Paid advertising is available on our classifieds site and through the purchase of banner ads. The tightly monitored Giveaways forum permits free listings of genuinely free horses and items available or wanted (on a limited basis). Items offered for trade are not allowed.

Advertising Policy Specifics
When in doubt of whether something you want to post constitutes advertising, please contact a moderator privately in advance for further clarification. Refer to the following points for general guidelines:

Horses – Only general discussion about the buying, leasing, selling and pricing of horses is permitted. If the post contains, or links to, the type of specific information typically found in a sales or wanted ad, and it’s related to a horse for sale, regardless of who’s selling it, it doesn’t belong in the discussion forums.

Stallions – Board members may ask for suggestions on breeding stallion recommendations. Stallion owners may reply to such queries by suggesting their own stallions, only if their horse fits the specific criteria of the original poster. Excessive promotion of a stallion by its owner or related parties is not permitted and will be addressed at the discretion of the moderators.

Services – Members may use the forums to ask for general recommendations of trainers, barns, shippers, farriers, etc., and other members may answer those requests by suggesting themselves or their company, if their services fulfill the specific criteria of the original post. Members may not solicit other members for business if it is not in response to a direct, genuine query.

Products – While members may ask for general opinions and suggestions on equipment, trailers, trucks, etc., they may not list the specific attributes for which they are in the market, as such posts serve as wanted ads.

Event Announcements – Members may post one notification of an upcoming event that may be of interest to fellow members, if the original poster does not benefit financially from the event. Such threads may not be “bumped” excessively. Premium members may post their own notices in the Event Announcements forum.

Charities/Rescues – Announcements for charitable or fundraising events can only be made for 501(c)(3) tax-exempt organizations. Special exceptions may be made, at the moderators’ discretion and direction, for board-related events or fundraising activities in extraordinary circumstances.

Occasional posts regarding horses available for adoption through IRS-registered horse rescue or placement programs are permitted in the appropriate forums, but these threads may be limited at the discretion of the moderators. Individuals may not advertise or make announcements for horses in need of rescue, placement or adoption unless the horse is available through a recognized rescue or placement agency or government-run entity or the thread fits the criteria for and is located in the Giveaways forum.

5. Do not post copyrighted photographs unless you have purchased that photo and have permission to do so.

6. Respect other members.
As members are often passionate about their beliefs and intentions can easily be misinterpreted in this type of environment, try to explore or resolve the inevitable disagreements that arise in the course of threads calmly and rationally.

If you see a post that you feel violates the rules of the board, please click the “alert” button (exclamation point inside of a triangle) in the bottom left corner of the post, which will alert ONLY the moderators to the post in question. They will then take whatever action, or no action, as deemed appropriate for the situation at their discretion. Do not air grievances regarding other posters or the moderators in the discussion forums.

Please be advised that adding another user to your “Ignore” list via your User Control Panel can be a useful tactic, which blocks posts and private messages by members whose commentary you’d rather avoid reading.

7. We have the right to reproduce statements made in the forums.
The Chronicle of the Horse may copy, quote, link to or otherwise reproduce posts, or portions of posts, in print or online for advertising or editorial purposes, if attributed to their original authors, and by posting in this forum, you hereby grant to The Chronicle of the Horse a perpetual, non-exclusive license under copyright and other rights, to do so.

8. We reserve the right to enforce and amend the rules.
The moderators may delete, edit, move or close any post or thread at any time, or refrain from doing any of the foregoing, in their discretion, and may suspend or revoke a user’s membership privileges at any time to maintain adherence to the rules and the general spirit of the forum. These rules may be amended at any time to address the current needs of the board.

Please see our full Terms of Service and Privacy Policy for more information.

Thanks for being a part of the COTH forums!

(Revised 1/26/16)
See more
See less

Integrity in the sport of eventing - the am/pro debate

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Originally posted by warrenhilleventing View Post
    I am sure all of you mean well, but I'd rather not get involved in this. I just wanted to clear my name before the idea exploded down the line that I was a dishonest person. To be honest, I wish it didn't take me having to post on here to do so, but I guess I am glad I did because I know many others wouldn't even bother doing so. If my name does come up in a negative manner again (understanding now that questionable wasn't meant to be attacking my character), I would hope those who post could refer to this thread before posting in said thread, that was all I was aiming for.
    I'm so glad you posted Liz! And as always, one dishonest person will ruin it for the rest.

    I don't think this thread is "dragging anyone through the mud". Liz easily explained her am status.

    And posting already public knowledge on a sport related BB is no different than googling yourself.
    http://kaboomeventing.com/
    http://kaboomeventing.blogspot.com/
    Horses are amazing athletes and make no mistake -- they are the stars of the show!

    Comment


    • The problem is NOT just at the lower levels. I've known a shamateur who was on the leader board for the Advanced Level. Yep, it's not cool.

      And I just don't see the point. Really. Do people need the boost to their ego that much that they have to be dishonest so they can be listed on a leader board, or win ribbons?

      I teach beginners, I break babies and do low level training - I mean REALLY low level, not lower level eventing. I'm talking maybe up through first level dressage and jumping small courses - 2 foot or so. Thats where my skill set is at. Sure I'm hoping to keep progressing, but right now I compete at Starter and am working on moving up to BN. I'm a pro. I make money teaching and training horses.

      Thats the fact of the matter. The fact that I'm not uber-competitive at shows HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH AM/PRO STATUS.

      Not confusing.
      Not an issue unless you care about some lip service from USEA on a leader board.
      2016 RRP Makeover Competitor www.EnviousBid.com

      Comment


      • In British Eventing, it is the horse that goes up the grades, not the rider. This leads to interesting competitions in which a 16 year old school child wins against a medal winning Olympian. Men and women, old and young, professional and complete amateur compete on equal terms. What could be better?

        There are limits on the number of horses a pro can ride in one day.

        Of course, the FEI have introduced the idea of licenses for riders to ensure people have enough experience before they move up to 4 star...
        "Good young horses are bred, but good advanced horses are trained" Sam Griffiths

        Comment


        • Originally posted by msghook View Post
          subk - it is not that the USEF doesn't care; it is that the USEF doesn't have the resources to to be the policeman. There are 80,000 plus USEF members. Staff at USEF deals with hundreds of thousands of entries at recognized competitions annually. They can't afford the time to look at every Amateur application and then do a web search to see if that individual advertises professional services. Especially when, as we have seen in this thread, the name of the individual is hidden behind the name of a farm. TDs and Stewards have no more idea about the professional/amateur status of the several hundred people at the competition where they officiate. I personally know hundreds of Eventers and interact with them on regular basis. But I have no idea regarding the Professional/Amateur status of most of them. The process relies on the participation of the members to bring violations to the attention of the officials and the Federation. If we, as members of a society, don't care enough act in the best interests of that society, then we get the results that we deserve (google Kitty Genovese). If "we" want the shamateur violations to stop then we have to play our role in the process.
          ...Malcolm
          Malcom, I will repeat, no one expects the USEF to review all or even any Amateur affidavits. The USEA presents the award---I assume this since it is referred to as the "USEA Leaderboard." I think the USEA has more accountability here than to pass the blame on to the USEF. The USEA has some responsibility to not just the membership but to those like Liz and others on the leader board that the USEA list itself has some integrity.

          If the onus to initiate the validity of status is on the membership how is that suppose to happen when many people on the Amateur leader board get there without ever entering an Amateur division? And if riders get on the list without inappropriately entering divisions have they even broken any rules?

          Comment


          • Originally posted by subk View Post
            If the onus to initiate the validity of status is on the membership how is that suppose to happen when many people on the Amateur leader board get there without ever entering an Amateur division? And if riders get on the list without inappropriately entering divisions have they even broken any rules?
            They don't base it on amateur divisions, they base it on placings with the non-amateurs removed. So if I place tenth, but I'm the highest placed amateur, I get amateur points for first place. I notice that the top overall amateur placings seem to be based on the regular point system.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by eqsiu View Post
              They don't base it on amateur divisions, they base it on placings with the non-amateurs removed. So if I place tenth, but I'm the highest placed amateur, I get amateur points for first place. I notice that the top overall amateur placings seem to be based on the regular point system.
              Yes, that's my point. If Joe Shamateur is entering all Open division he gets amateur points and he can accumulate all his points in divisions that would not call into question his amateur status--and which none of the membership would ever have reason to call attention to a TD or steward his incorrect status.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by eqsiu View Post
                I know a rider who rides as an amateur, while teaching lessons and training horses for money. She now has gained a sponsorship (gained after last year's season had ended) and I'm waiting to see if she declared amateur status for this year. She is by no means an amateur, even in spirit. I am appalled by it. Yet no one seems to think a thing of it around here. However, I don't have $200 to spare for a protest, and I think burning bridges is a bad idea generally. So...

                ETA: correct spelling, wrong word.
                If you contact the USEA and point this out (and it really helps if person has a website or a Social Media page (Facebook, Twitter, Blog) that substantiates your observations, the USEA makes the inquiry. The person is allowed to state voluntarily that the made a "mistake" in checking off amateur status and then declaring by electronic signature that they are an amateur and the USEA will change their status.

                I've done it twice...
                Live, Laugh, Love
                http://confessionsofanaaer.blogspot.com/

                Comment


                • I am on record with USEF as a pro. I teach four riders once a week. I think I pay more for my insurance than I generate teaching, but I enjoy it so I play by the rules. I have not experienced a problem with divisions in the USEA and compete where I am eligible according to the rules.

                  However, becasue I am a pro with USEF, I am also a pro across all disciplines. Now I have a little bit of a head scratch about that, because if I ever take up reining I would be a pro. I personally think you should be a pro in your own discipline, not across the board. Has this issue ever come up before?

                  Nancy
                  www.canterusa.org

                  Comment


                  • That makes sense, NMK. I hadn't thought of that. I don't mind being a pro for eventing on account of my 12.2 pony training exploits - that seems fair to me. But having a 12.2 pony will make me a pro dressage or hunter rider ? I would be laughed out of the show !

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by ACMEeventing View Post
                      Those links are infuriating; not because I am vying for year end awards, but because that level of poor sportsmanship is a reflection on the sport as a whole.
                      Late to this party, but definitely a bit ditto to this. There is a rider in my area who is listed as a trainer on their family's stable website and is a working student for a BNR. They have been listed on the amateur leaderboards and their family/clients post on Facebook about how exciting it is, so it's obviously not a mistake/something they don't know about. The lack of sportsmanship is irritating and reflects poorly on their facility as a whole (IMO).

                      Meanwhile I will not be filing as an amateur next year because I believe I now violate the rule in one of those roundabout ways. I have never been paid for riding or training but I fall into one of those categories where I toss hay and check water during night check for a couple bucks off my board and hop on a naughty school pony for the BO every rare once in a while.

                      I prefer the open/horse/rider designations when available.
                      "Last time I picked your feet, you broke my toe!"

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by NMK View Post
                        .

                        However, becasue I am a pro with USEF, I am also a pro across all disciplines. Now I have a little bit of a head scratch about that, because if I ever take up reining I would be a pro. I personally think you should be a pro in your own discipline, not across the board. Has this issue ever come up before?

                        Nancy
                        Yes, it has been brought up MANY MANY times before.

                        Even being paid in an activity that has nothng to do with USEF (e.g. driving a carriage in a tourist town, or leading trail rides, or exercising polo ponies) makes you a pro across all disciplines.
                        Janet

                        chief feeder and mucker for Music, Spy, Belle and Tiara. Someone else is now feeding and mucking for Chief and Brain (both foxhunting now).

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by NMK View Post
                          However, becasue I am a pro with USEF, I am also a pro across all disciplines. Now I have a little bit of a head scratch about that, because if I ever take up reining I would be a pro. I personally think you should be a pro in your own discipline, not across the board. Has this issue ever come up before?

                          Nancy
                          Came up for a good friend of mine....event rider then dressage rider. For kicks we started taking some reining lessons and then doing more of the working cow stuff. Because she was a Pro in the dressage world...she was a pro in that world. Enough so that when whe had a little project horse, I could show him in the novice classes but she couldn't because of her status and had to go in the open classes. In the working cow stuff...that meant she had to start roping at a much earlier point

                          What was interesting though was even though she was a dressage rider...she did have a leg up on a lot of the riders in reining. She could ride a better circle (and funny, so could I) than a lot of the non-pros. And neither of us had trouble going fast The sports are really really different, but there are some skills that do cross over.
                          ** Tact is the ability to tell someone to go to hell in such a way that they look forward to the trip. ~Winston Churchill? **

                          Comment


                          • At one time Eventers allowed different Amateur definition than USEF and all other USEF recognized disciplines. Janet noted the rule discussion and modification around 10 years ago.
                            So there may be some lifetime USEF and USEA members that were amateurs under the old rules that have been "lax" (to be polite) in confirming their status. As I understand, this status must be confirmed every year.

                            As to what the USEA can do about this. Possibly a better option is to post the leaderboard quarterly. Create a form letter/email detailing the USEF amateur definition and advise the receiptant he/she must confirm they are within compliance with the rule. This should be sent to any competitor, 19+ years or older, who appears on the amateur leaderboards. That puts the competitors on notice of their status so they can modify as necessary. All within the competitive year.
                            "Never do anything that you have to explain twice to the paramedics."
                            Courtesy my cousin Tim

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by subk View Post
                              The USEA presents the award---I assume this since it is referred to as the "USEA Leaderboard." I think the USEA has more accountability here than to pass the blame on to the USEF. The USEA has some responsibility to not just the membership but to those like Liz and others on the leader board that the USEA list itself has some integrity.


                              And if the USEA doesn't have the time or resources or wherewithal to verify the status of a handful of year-end award winners, there shouldn't be year-end awards based on pro/am status.

                              Comment


                              • Here's the solution to the problem: If names of amateurs showed up on the score board at events with an asterix after their name the most of the problem would pretty much be solved a couple months into the season. The membership doesn't protest because they don't know who is card carrying and who isn't. Show who is card carrying and it gets fixed either by embarrassment or protest.

                                Actually, as an amateur that asterix was all I ever really wanted: subk* :grin: When I was doing upper levels what would have been nice was someone looking at the score board and seeing of the 3 double clears on XC one was from an ammy, or that maybe I got 8th but if you took away the pros I could see that I was the top ammy of the day. Instead, in attempt to appease amateurs we got the Leaderboard with egregious errors that no one cares enough about to make sure it has integrity. And I still can't tell how I stacked up with other amateurs in my division on Sunday afternoon at the end of an event.

                                Comment


                                • Originally posted by Janet View Post
                                  See GR1309.9
                                  Or check out this link
                                  http://www.usef.org/documents/rules/...nstatement.pdf
                                  Thank you. Not even sure if I can do that, I don't think I really know two active Senior USEF members that well anymore!!

                                  Comment


                                  • Originally posted by JER View Post

                                    And if the USEA doesn't have the time or resources or wherewithal to verify the status of a handful of year-end award winners, there shouldn't be year-end awards based on pro/am status.
                                    Agree completely. It sounds like it isn't all a case of dishonesty--there may be a glitch in the system (software issue? box too easy to accidentally check/uncheck?) that allowed a number of pros earn amateur points.

                                    But it looks bad for the USEA, and is really hurtful to a lot of the membership (those on the list correctly, on the list accidentally, off the list because of accidental inclusions, off the list because they "did the right thing" and declared pro . . . ).

                                    "Talk to the TD" works at shows if people are entered wrong, but doesn't address the issue of amateur points earned in open divisions. I hope that the USEA takes the time to figure out what happened and re-issue a corrected list.

                                    Or, if that requires more resources than they have, cease printing amateur leaderboards.

                                    Comment

                                    • Original Poster

                                      Now even I am confused.
                                      I thought that the year end awards were based on points in each category they offer an award set. That the riders filling the placings were sorted by the computer program, or pulled by staff in numerical (point standing) order in some fashion - by hand, by computer, whatever. Now what I want to know is, how does someone get listed as an amateur when they have not ever checked that box?
                                      Presumably they would have been competing all year as an amateur in order to have high enough points to place in national year end awards categories. So no one looked at the lists all year (either the rider who was incorrectly listed, or staff or friends or trainers or family or whatever) and said, oh look they have you down in the amateur category, you're not an amateur.....
                                      That's a bad error, I think. If it is an error.
                                      Proud & Permanent Student Of The Long Road
                                      Read me: EN (http://eventingnation.com/author/annemarch/) and HJU (http://horsejunkiesunited.com/author/holly-covey/)

                                      Comment


                                      • So no one looked at the lists all year (either the rider who was incorrectly listed, or staff or friends or trainers or family or whatever)
                                        For Real.

                                        I WAS an amateur for 2012. And Every. Single. Time I looked up Po's results to check that I had her up to date comp record entered on evententries, I was reminded of our score, our amended amateur points... it is 100% beyond me how anyone can claim to 'not notice' their incorrect status. I'm not buying it.

                                        Comment


                                        • Originally posted by retreadeventer View Post
                                          Now what I want to know is, how does someone get listed as an amateur when they have not ever checked that box?
                                          Presumably they would have been competing all year as an amateur in order to have high enough points to place in national year end awards categories. So no one looked at the lists all year (either the rider who was incorrectly listed, or staff or friends or trainers or family or whatever) and said, oh look they have you down in the amateur category, you're not an amateur.....
                                          That's a bad error, I think. If it is an error.
                                          I don't know the answer to this, but I'll agree- it's confusing . I found out DH was listed as an amateur last year because the amateur points were showing up next to the USEA points when I looked at his competition record on the the USEA page. I asked him about it and he said he'd not designated himself as an amateur as far as he knew (in addition to having private sponsors and starting young horses on occasion, he's a USEA/USEF licensed official, which I think precludes him from ammy status?). It's fixed now (he definitely does NOT have ammy status and it says as much on his record) but it seemed like the default with the USEA was to list him as an amateur. He never showed in any amateur divisions at shows I don't think, all the points were assigned for being the highest place "amateur" in an open division. I still don't really understand it, the whole mess seems like more trouble than it's worth.
                                          Balanced Care Equine

                                          Comment

                                          Working...
                                          X