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Integrity in the sport of eventing - the am/pro debate

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  • #81
    Originally posted by FitToBeTied View Post
    Reclaiming your amateur status seems somewhat akin to reclaiming your virginity just because you didn't have sex for a year.
    LOL!!!!

    My two cents: don't care about amateur in Eventing. Much more important and meaningful in H/J land.

    Just to recap what makes you a pro:
    1) accepting remuneration for training horses
    2) accepting remuneration for training people
    3) sponsorship.

    You can braid, ship, clean stalls, sell horses, run a barn and still be an amateur so long as you don't 1,2,3 above.

    And "remuneration" isn't just money.
    Last edited by Judysmom; Jan. 22, 2013, 07:10 AM. Reason: spelling-as noted by MVP & Deltawave
    Unrepentant carb eater

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    • #82
      Originally posted by purplnurpl View Post
      so at that point is it not correct to send the links to the USEA? or does the USEA not really care...?
      My understanding is that without an actual USEF protest and evidence, they may get a letter warning them and that's it?

      Comment


      • #83
        Originally posted by SevenDogs View Post


        Amateur status should never have been introduced to Eventing. It was a mistake that came in with the AEC's and created silly entitlement threads like this one.
        Amateur status came up independantly of the AEC. It was the result of a vocal, (IMHO misguided) grass roots effort leading to extensve discussion at the 2003 USEA Annual Meeting.
        Janet

        chief feeder and mucker for Music, Spy, Belle and Tiara. Someone else is now feeding and mucking for Chief and Brain (both foxhunting now).

        Comment


        • #84
          Agree or disagree with whether you like the current amateur rules, the problem is they are the rules and we should follow them until we make new ones or we lose respect for the rules and the governance.

          And the problem isn't with people "declaring themselves pros." "Pro" is the default status. One must declare themselves an amateur by way of intentionally signing an affidavit.

          Originally posted by msghook View Post
          If this is happening, it should be reported to Officials, otherwise nothing willl change. The USEF and the competition Officials cannot take action if they know nothing of the violation.

          ...The USEF takes these violations very seriously when properly reported, and investigation of fraudulent Amateur claims is a major part of its judicial process.

          Malcolm
          Malcolm, as always thank you for taking the time to come here and address concerns. However, I am a bit disturb because it very much sounds as if the USEA/USEF feel there is no need to see that these rules are followed unless and until there is a complaint from membership.

          I agree that it is unreasonable to expect all or even a significant number of the amateur affidavits to be reviewed. I could understand one or two less than well known "shamateurs" being over looked on a year end leadership board. But that is not the case here. The USEA is publicly commending several individuals as amateurs who have previously appeared in national publications--COTH, EN, not to mention the USEA's own magazine!--outing themselves as pros with no response or result from the governing body.

          The governing body does not escape without a good amount of egg on their face. I don't think it is unreasonable to spend a day doing some quick google searches before the final list is produced--more manpower hours have been spent by USEA officials sitting around a board table discussing what it is amateurs want and how to appeal to them. Producing a year end amateur list with a bunch of well know or publicly admitted pros is a PR fail for anyone trying to appeal to amateurs.

          Comment


          • #85
            Originally posted by yellowbritches View Post
            People should be able to braid a few horses to make some show money and not be considered a pro.
            Braiding does not make you a pro.
            Janet

            chief feeder and mucker for Music, Spy, Belle and Tiara. Someone else is now feeding and mucking for Chief and Brain (both foxhunting now).

            Comment


            • #86
              Originally posted by JER View Post
              Actually, it was 16 Novices in 2012. The second-placed horse did 12, also with pros.
              I remember one year the Jr Novice or Jr BN (I forget which) did 23 HT.
              Last edited by Janet; Jan. 21, 2013, 09:26 PM.
              Janet

              chief feeder and mucker for Music, Spy, Belle and Tiara. Someone else is now feeding and mucking for Chief and Brain (both foxhunting now).

              Comment


              • #87
                Originally posted by JER View Post
                (Which begs the question: are you an amateur if you advertise your services but don't have any paying clients? I mean, if you're a prostitute without clients, are you still a prostitute?)
                According to the USEF, the act of advertising your "non-amateur services" is sufficient to make you not an amateur, whether or not you have any clients.
                Janet

                chief feeder and mucker for Music, Spy, Belle and Tiara. Someone else is now feeding and mucking for Chief and Brain (both foxhunting now).

                Comment


                • #88
                  Originally posted by OreoCookie View Post
                  I am looking to reclaim amateur status. I haven't been a pro in...almost 5 years now. And when I was a pro, it was for managing a barn, showing babies in-hand, and riding the young horses in Training Level dressage tests. Nothing that's going to win me any major awards now after I've been working out in the real world and having a family for so many years.
                  See GR1309.9
                  Or check out this link
                  http://www.usef.org/documents/rules/...nstatement.pdf
                  Janet

                  chief feeder and mucker for Music, Spy, Belle and Tiara. Someone else is now feeding and mucking for Chief and Brain (both foxhunting now).

                  Comment


                  • #89
                    Originally posted by eqsiu View Post
                    I think it's more about being an amateur in the "spirit" of the rules, e.g. you aren't all that great a rider and certainly aren't competitive against true pros, while still fitting the definition of pro in the rules.
                    That is NOT "the spirit of the rules".

                    The very first line of the Amateur rules says

                    Regardless of one’s equestrian skills and/or accomplishments, a person is an amateur if his 18th birthday, as defined in GR101, he has not engaged in any of the activities identified in paragraph 4 below.
                    Janet

                    chief feeder and mucker for Music, Spy, Belle and Tiara. Someone else is now feeding and mucking for Chief and Brain (both foxhunting now).

                    Comment


                    • #90
                      Originally posted by purplnurpl View Post
                      good grief.
                      I really wanted to say Holy #%^*!! How does the eventing community let colleagues get away with this??

                      Adult Am Advanced

                      1. Meghan O'Donoghue
                      http://www.zoominfo.com/#!search/pro...rgetid=profile

                      2. Leslie Chelstrom
                      http://www.champagnewishesfarm.com/leslie.htm

                      3. Erin Flynn
                      (and this one really puts a burr up my butt!)
                      The reason I have to be a pro is because I have ONE Sponsor. ONE!
                      http://www.erinflynneventing.com/

                      4. Liz Riley (questionable)
                      http://www.warrenhillfarm.com/for_sale.htm

                      just to start it off.

                      I'm going to say--if I were on the leader boards for AMATEUR I would personally look up the other year end winners.
                      There's some start up info--someone can do something with it if they like.

                      The dishonesty is revolting.

                      I bet know one says anything because in all honestly no one wants to be "that person".
                      Hi!

                      Liz Riley here chiming in (of Warren Hill Eventing, established Dec of 2012). The website you referred to above it quite an old one and created by friends of my mum's. Mum runs the horse business and she was the one who make's all the money from it, which left me as an amateur, up until I signed up for my 2013 membership (for which I unchecked the amateur status for those who want to know). I work an 8-5 job and ride my five horses after work every day (with my mum's help). This fall, after a very successful 2012 year, I decided it was time to make it a little easier for my mum and I and I went out and sought sponsorships. I received them! Now I am declaring myself a pro. I never have before received any amount of renumeration for anything related to horses. So before you and all the others on this board decide to call me a questionable person because I wasn't declaring myself correctly, I just wanted to clear it up myself. This is my first post, and most likely my last. I was one who loved Boyd's ad regarding a working student. For you to call me questionable, without having the slightest inkling of who I am or who my mother is, does get me mad, but this will be the last time. I am officially trying to make it in two businesses now (the other being my actual full time job) and it takes a lot, and it especially does not help when I get bad mouthed before I even really get WHE and my name out there. I have no idea who the other people are who you listed, but before any more bad mouthing gets spread about them, I would politely like to ask you to stop as I am sure they are trying to turn pro in an already difficult sport to do so without the help of other little birds. I hope you don't find this offensive as much as enlightening.

                      Comment


                      • #91
                        Um...yeah. The #3 on the Master Amateur Training List is definitely NOT an amateur. A friend's daughter takes lessons with her. What am I supposed to do, though? I'm not exactly going to ask my friend for a cancelled check so I can "report" their trainer, ya know?

                        Comment


                        • #92
                          If you believe that the secretaty has put someone in a division they ar not elegible for (whether someone withiut Amateur status in an amatuer division, or someone in a Rider division that does not fit the Rider specs) PLEASE tell the secretary. It was probably an innocentt oversght.

                          If the secretary doesn't fix it, please inform the TD. That IS part of the TDs job.
                          Janet

                          chief feeder and mucker for Music, Spy, Belle and Tiara. Someone else is now feeding and mucking for Chief and Brain (both foxhunting now).

                          Comment


                          • #93
                            Originally posted by warrenhilleventing View Post
                            So before you and all the others on this board decide to call me a questionable person because I wasn't declaring myself correctly, I just wanted to clear it up myself.
                            I believe "questionable" meant that there was no online proof of pro activities, but your website could be interpreted that way. Not that you are a questionable person. Also, googling the others finds pro activities clearly listed. So no question there.

                            Comment


                            • #94
                              So, names are out there -- will the USEF/USEA investigate if awards have been inappropriately given? Or will it be "better luck next year"?
                              Life doesn't have perfect footing.

                              Bloggily entertain yourself with our adventures (and disasters):
                              We Are Flying Solo

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                              • #95
                                Originally posted by eqsiu View Post
                                I assume you're talking about Jane Sleeper? I didn't see anything about sponsors, but I wonder if teaching working students who are paying with labor actually violates the rules. I couldn't find anything in the rules that said labor counted as remuneration so...
                                Yes, that's who I was referring to...there's a Voltaire Saddle logo prominently on the home page, which would make me suspicious about sponsorship. As far as working students working in exchange for lessons, I'm pretty sure that violates the amateur rules.

                                I also wonder about Elinor Macphail who's on the amateur training and intermediate leaderboards...who's website provides contact info if you want to contact her "for sponsorship/partnership information or to inquire about horses for sale, lessons, training, and other services"
                                http://elinormacphaileventing.wordpr.../about-elinor/
                                ~Drafties Clique~Sprite's Mom~ASB-loving eventer~
                                www.gianthorse.photoreflect.com ~ http://photobucket.com/albums/v692/tarheelmd07/

                                Comment


                                • #96
                                  Originally posted by warrenhilleventing View Post
                                  Hi!

                                  Liz Riley here chiming in (of Warren Hill Eventing, established Dec of 2012). The website you referred to above it quite an old one and created by friends of my mum's. Mum runs the horse business and she was the one who make's all the money from it, which left me as an amateur, up until I signed up for my 2013 membership (for which I unchecked the amateur status for those who want to know). I work an 8-5 job and ride my five horses after work every day (with my mum's help). This fall, after a very successful 2012 year, I decided it was time to make it a little easier for my mum and I and I went out and sought sponsorships. I received them! Now I am declaring myself a pro. I never have before received any amount of renumeration for anything related to horses. So before you and all the others on this board decide to call me a questionable person because I wasn't declaring myself correctly, I just wanted to clear it up myself. This is my first post, and most likely my last. I was one who loved Boyd's ad regarding a working student. For you to call me questionable, without having the slightest inkling of who I am or who my mother is, does get me mad, but this will be the last time. I am officially trying to make it in two businesses now (the other being my actual full time job) and it takes a lot, and it especially does not help when I get bad mouthed before I even really get WHE and my name out there. I have no idea who the other people are who you listed, but before any more bad mouthing gets spread about them, I would politely like to ask you to stop as I am sure they are trying to turn pro in an already difficult sport to do so without the help of other little birds. I hope you don't find this offensive as much as enlightening.
                                  I'm sure it's disconcerting to find yourself as the subject of discussion on this BB. That said, you've corrected the record. I'm sure the "questionnable" part referred to the fact that the website didn't clearly indicate whether you we're carrying out "pro" activities or not.

                                  It is, however, a good reminder to all amateurs (and anyone, really) that its important to be on top of your online presence, even the parts put up by friends. For instance, the warren website says that horses are trained year-round by owner Anne Riley and daughter Liz.

                                  Given that you were an Ammy until recently, this likely was a reference to the fact that you were riding your own horses year-round while your mom might have been riding horses for others. But given that, based on my reading - perhaps Janet can weigh-in, you would be a pro if you rode a horse owned by anyone who was paying your mom for boarding or training (I.e. even if you weren't being paid), it would probably be important to make sure that the website didn't suggest that you might be. Just to avoid any confusion.

                                  Comment


                                  • #97
                                    Originally posted by Janet View Post
                                    I remember one year the Jr Novice or Jr BN (I forget which) did 23 HT.
                                    Yikes. Er... What area is there actually 23 HTs in a year? Or... did they compete in two areas?

                                    Comment


                                    • #98
                                      Originally posted by Judysmom View Post

                                      And "renumeration" isn't just money.
                                      And it's not even "renumeration." it's "remuneration."
                                      The armchair saddler
                                      Politically Pro-Cat

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                                      • #99
                                        THANK YOU, mvp. Was scrambling for my little keyboard. Ack. Much obliged.
                                        Click here before you buy.

                                        Comment


                                        • And what about those the USEF has found guilty of showing as an Ammy while advertising as a pro... suspends and fines said person, and they just go on showing for nearly a year, still as an ammy, without anyone noticing?
                                          Big Idea Eventing

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