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Integrity in the sport of eventing - the am/pro debate

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  • #61
    I also find the whole issue pretty humorous. My boss for example has mentioned getting her ammy status back. She's a show jumper, not an eventer, so there is much more incentive to be an amateur in that world. How ridiculous would it be if she, the Grand Prix rider with a bunch of nice horses, was an amateur, and I, the complete newbie never evented in my life on a borrowed mount, was considered a "pro".

    Comment


    • #62
      Originally posted by cuonxc View Post
      Yikes -much more prevalent than one would think. I randomly googled (3) riders on the 2012 Adult Amateur Rider award listing...all (3) advertised training
      Why aren't we naming names here?*

      We're all members of the same organizations, we're all on here discussing the rules. If people appear to be flagrantly in violation of those rules, and are advertising their un-amateur services, let's just say who they are.

      Secrecy won't get us anywhere, especially when these 'amateurs' are quite public about their violations.

      (Which begs the question: are you an amateur if you advertise your services but don't have any paying clients? I mean, if you're a prostitute without clients, are you still a prostitute?)

      While I'm firmly in the camp of getting rid of the amateur status in eventing, maybe the most efficient way to do this is to simply expose the prevalence of the violations. People shouldn't have to go running to the TD, the TD should focus on safety issues, collection plates shouldn't be passed around to fund protests. This is just not how eventing should spend its collective time and money.


      *Please don't tell me it's because we're all ladies.

      Comment


      • #63
        Originally posted by cuonxc View Post
        Yikes -much more prevalent than one would think. I randomly googled (3) riders on the 2012 Adult Amateur Rider award listing...all (3) advertised training
        so at that point is it not correct to send the links to the USEA? or does the USEA not really care...?
        http://kaboomeventing.com/
        http://kaboomeventing.blogspot.com/
        Horses are amazing athletes and make no mistake -- they are the stars of the show!

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        • #64
          good grief.
          I really wanted to say Holy #%^*!! How does the eventing community let colleagues get away with this??

          Adult Am Advanced

          1. Meghan O'Donoghue
          http://www.zoominfo.com/#!search/pro...rgetid=profile

          2. Leslie Chelstrom
          http://www.champagnewishesfarm.com/leslie.htm

          3. Erin Flynn
          (and this one really puts a burr up my butt!)
          The reason I have to be a pro is because I have ONE Sponsor. ONE!
          http://www.erinflynneventing.com/

          4. Liz Riley (questionable)
          http://www.warrenhillfarm.com/for_sale.htm

          just to start it off.

          I'm going to say--if I were on the leader boards for AMATEUR I would personally look up the other year end winners.
          There's some start up info--someone can do something with it if they like.

          The dishonesty is revolting.

          I bet know one says anything because in all honestly no one wants to be "that person".
          http://kaboomeventing.com/
          http://kaboomeventing.blogspot.com/
          Horses are amazing athletes and make no mistake -- they are the stars of the show!

          Comment


          • #65
            Also, just a random tid-bit...

            If you are someone, such as myself, who is getting ready to reclaim amateur status..

            The USEF requires:
            1. 1 year of non business before reclaiming status
            2. notarized documentation of proof of non business for the past year and years to come.
            3. $$
            http://kaboomeventing.com/
            http://kaboomeventing.blogspot.com/
            Horses are amazing athletes and make no mistake -- they are the stars of the show!

            Comment


            • #66
              I am looking to reclaim amateur status. I haven't been a pro in...almost 5 years now. And when I was a pro, it was for managing a barn, showing babies in-hand, and riding the young horses in Training Level dressage tests. Nothing that's going to win me any major awards now after I've been working out in the real world and having a family for so many years.

              Me and my free throwaway horse would like to do some shows. So what kind of document proves I've been working in retail and am now a stay at home mom?

              Comment


              • #67
                Originally posted by purplnurpl View Post
                good grief.
                I really wanted to say Holy #%^*!! How does the eventing community let colleagues get away with this??



                3. Erin Flynn
                (and this one really puts a burr up my butt!)
                The reason I have to be a pro is because I have ONE Sponsor. ONE!
                http://www.erinflynneventing.com/



                The dishonesty is revolting.

                I bet know one says anything because in all honestly no one wants to be "that person".
                WOW. That is revolting and infuriating. How in the hell is this even possible while YOU have to be a pro because you have ONE sponsor, and *I* will have to claim pro this year because I work in exchange for board. Wow.

                Way to fail miserably, USEA.
                runnjump86 Instagram

                Horse Junkies United guest blogger

                Comment


                • #68
                  I don't understand the uproar or the rush to reclaim amateur status in Eventing.

                  I am an amateur in every possible way. Trust me, no one is going to pay me to do anything with horses! Yet, I no desire to enter an Amateur class in Eventing.

                  If there is a need to split classes, the Rider/Open is a much better way to go. No one cares if you make money as a barn manager or you teach beginner lessons. You have either ridden above a certain level or you haven't.

                  Why have we taken one of the worst things from H/J land and brought it over to eventing, particularly when we had a well functioning system in place?

                  Comment

                  • Original Poster

                    #69
                    Mollie Bailey of COTH wrote an article in 2009 (it's still up, will provide link in a minute) that examined the am/pro dilemma, and there is a person at the USEF who does (at least at that time, did) look into these questions and would act if they found evidence of an amateur question. (http://www.chronofhorse.com/article/...n-amateur-rule)

                    Again, it is personal responsibility and integrity that is the issue at least for me. I think these people need to let the USEF/USEA KNOW they have changed their status to professional, not up to someone to nark on them or the overworked folks at the association to ferret them out. They need to be whole people who value honesty and have integrity. I don't know how one encourages that, except to remind people in general that WE ARE WATCHING YOU....
                    Proud & Permanent Student Of The Long Road
                    Read me: EN (http://eventingnation.com/author/annemarch/) and HJU (http://horsejunkiesunited.com/author/holly-covey/)

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                    • #70
                      I'm a bit ambivalent about this subject.

                      On the one hand, I'm a complete amateur. I ride one horse, and have ridden only one horse for the past 5ish years. I've hopped on a couple others for fun, but never renumeration. I have not worked off board, I have no sponsors, I work 9 to 5 (well, 6 to 3) in my completely non-horse related job.

                      I do have a website and a Facebook 'athlete' page. It doesn't offer sales, training, or any other horse-related service. Why do I have it? Because it's fun, and the more people who know of me, the more who will cheer when I ride by at events. It's fun to be 'famous', however mildly.

                      I compete at Advanced. (I lose the term loosely, as I last competed at that level last March, and will not again until this May/June due to horse injury.) I am tied for tenth on the leaderboard mentioned above by purplnurpl. That was after two events. I was able to gain a place on the leaderboard because 1) by competing against almost exclusively professionals, I ended up the 1st and 2nd 'placed' amateur in those divisions and 2) there just aren't that many Adult Amateur Advanced Riders.

                      Apparently, there are even less than the leaderboard shows.

                      Now, it does mildly bother me that these 'amateurs' obviously don't belong on this leaderboard. If not for them, I might have gotten a nice, big pretty year end ribbon, which would have been a nice consolation for a rough end to the year (plus a pony I haven't seen in six months).

                      But it's just a ribbon. And at the Advanced level, that's the only thing Amateur counts for.

                      If I truly cared about the Amateur status issues, I would also care just as much that I wasn't winning all the time at this level. And as an amateur with limited saddle time, I recognize that I will not be winning often, if at all, at this level. I can win at Prelim or compete at Advanced, and I choose the latter. If I were the type to truly care about the shamateurs 'stealing' my place on the leaderboard, I wouldn't be competing at this level at all.

                      On the other hand, it makes my insides twitch to see people being dishonorable.
                      Comedic Eventing on Facebook

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                      • #71
                        Originally posted by JER View Post
                        I mean, if you're a prostitute without clients, are you still a prostitute?
                        "Friend" me !

                        http://www.facebook.com/isabeau.solace

                        Comment


                        • #72
                          Originally posted by purplnurpl View Post
                          good grief.
                          I really wanted to say Holy #%^*!! How does the eventing community let colleagues get away with this??

                          Adult Am Advanced

                          1. Meghan O'Donoghue
                          http://www.zoominfo.com/#!search/pro...rgetid=profile

                          2. Leslie Chelstrom
                          http://www.champagnewishesfarm.com/leslie.htm

                          3. Erin Flynn
                          (and this one really puts a burr up my butt!)
                          The reason I have to be a pro is because I have ONE Sponsor. ONE!
                          http://www.erinflynneventing.com/

                          4. Liz Riley (questionable)
                          http://www.warrenhillfarm.com/for_sale.htm

                          just to start it off.

                          I'm going to say--if I were on the leader boards for AMATEUR I would personally look up the other year end winners.
                          There's some start up info--someone can do something with it if they like.

                          The dishonesty is revolting.

                          I bet know one says anything because in all honestly no one wants to be "that person".
                          WTF.

                          I gave up my ammie status because I trade rides with my BO and I made a whopping $350.00 in training last year. I don't really care about the status, and to be honest I probably was skirting the rule for a year or so (no $ changing hands but riding other's horses).

                          I have a "real" job for 49 hours a week, I have no sponsors, and I make less than a couple tanks of gas for riding. But I'm a pro. Interesting.

                          Those links are infuriating; not because I am vying for year end awards, but because that level of poor sportsmanship is a reflection on the sport as a whole. At least I know that I did the right thing. At the end of the day that's all that matters.
                          Always be yourself. Unless you can be Batman. Then always be Batman.

                          The Grove at Five Points

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                          • #73
                            Well, if amateur status is meaningless, why all the anger about having to declare oneself a pro?
                            Click here before you buy.

                            Comment


                            • #74
                              Originally posted by purplnurpl View Post
                              good grief.
                              I really wanted to say Holy #%^*!! How does the eventing community let colleagues get away with this??

                              Adult Am Advanced

                              1. Meghan O'Donoghue
                              http://www.zoominfo.com/#!search/pro...rgetid=profile
                              She's currently training horses for Will Coleman per Eventing Nation.

                              Comment


                              • #75
                                I think it's more about being an amateur in the "spirit" of the rules, e.g. you aren't all that great a rider and certainly aren't competitive against true pros, while still fitting the definition of pro in the rules.

                                I fit the above, but I don't care that I can't compete as an amateur. I do care when people break the rules in a big way. So I wouldn't be bothered by someone who gets on horses at the barn and makes $10 bucks every now and then, but I do care when people have horses in training and are teaching regular lessons.

                                Comment


                                • #76
                                  This thread is so disappointing. I don't think I'll be able to look at these people the same way again.

                                  I'm not reading anymore - going to go pull an ostrich, stick my head in the sand and hum 'ignorance is bliss' until it all goes away.

                                  Comment


                                  • #77
                                    Am I the only one who finds it ironic that this thread about integrity in Eventing started with an anecdote about John Adams being a real stand-up guy? The man may be remembered for doing many great things, but there is a good argument that when he signed the Alien and Sedition Acts (google it if you're interested) his legacy was irreversibly tarnished; and there is no doubt that he was very much hated in his own time for signing legislation into law that unquestionably violated the Constitution (talk about a rule breaker!)

                                    Sorry, I just had to say something.

                                    Comment


                                    • #78
                                      Originally posted by tarheelmd07 View Post
                                      there's a rider on several of the master Master Amateur leaderboards who's website advertises a working student program (and also appears to have a potential saddle sponsor on their site) how does that work with the amateur rules?
                                      I assume you're talking about Jane Sleeper? I didn't see anything about sponsors, but I wonder if teaching working students who are paying with labor actually violates the rules. I couldn't find anything in the rules that said labor counted as remuneration so...

                                      Comment


                                      • #79
                                        Originally posted by deltawave View Post
                                        Well, if amateur status is meaningless, why all the anger about having to declare oneself a pro?
                                        I don't think the anger is about them declaring as a pro as much as others who clearly are not doing it.


                                        I will say to be a bit careful. People's status do change so someone could be a pro now who was an amateur when the lists came out (was ammie in 2012). Also, the lists have been wrong before. Not everyone checks. I know I hadn't looked at them until this thread. So the computer may think someone is an amateur when they are not.
                                        Last edited by bornfreenowexpensive; Jan. 22, 2013, 07:51 AM. Reason: to be more clear
                                        ** Tact is the ability to tell someone to go to hell in such a way that they look forward to the trip. ~Winston Churchill? **

                                        Comment


                                        • #80
                                          Reclaiming your amateur status seems somewhat akin to reclaiming your virginity just because you didn't have sex for a year.
                                          A person is smart. People are dumb, panicky dangerous animals and you know it.

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